Negative Threat
- Thread starter Galinar
- Start date
SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
From what I've seen from party members with -110 to -150% threat, it appears to all be the same past -100%. I can definitively state that it doesn't rollover as you're worried about, because -110% threat would pull very commonly from my first-life raid tank (which uses Intim & shield throw for aggro). A solid DPS build with like -50% or -80% will frequently pull aggro off an Intim tank, whereas -100% or higher only rarely pulls under normal circumstances (extended CC on the tank is the main cause).
Front numbers etc are reduced directly (so -100% or more completely removes threat generated here), but there are some procs or other damage sources not reduced properly. Not quite sure which, haven't tested enough (but heavy proc builds can pull with >-100% threat whereas low proc builds don't). Shiradi epic moment is high on my list of probable causes, but I'm not sure which portion thereof (and it could just be that it often happens during stuff like Time Stop).
Front numbers etc are reduced directly (so -100% or more completely removes threat generated here), but there are some procs or other damage sources not reduced properly. Not quite sure which, haven't tested enough (but heavy proc builds can pull with >-100% threat whereas low proc builds don't). Shiradi epic moment is high on my list of probable causes, but I'm not sure which portion thereof (and it could just be that it often happens during stuff like Time Stop).
vryxnr
Well-known member
A few months ago I spent several hours testing this (what negative threat applies to... I used "from all sources" forms of negative threat, and got it to 100%). While a few hours is not enough time to test EVERYTHING in the game, I was able to test quite a few things. My results:
it did completely reduce threat from spells like greater ruin
it did completely reduce threat from initial damage of weapons (front numbers)
it did completely reduce threat from sneak attacks
it did completely reduce threat from special attacks such as Arrow of Discord, Leg Shot, Shoot Later, Hunts End, The Pluck of a String, etc)
it did NOT apply to Law on your Side Imbue damage
it did NOT apply to Prism stance extra damage or effects
it did NOT apply to the extra damage or procs from Inexorable Advance epic moment
it did NOT apply to weapon extra damage such as Holy +6d6 good damage, etc
It is also my understanding that going over 100% threat reduction is treated as 100% threat reduction (aka: it caps at 100%). Pulling aggro when you have 100% or more reduction is (in my experience) always the result of those effects and procs that ignore threat reduction.
Bjond
Well-known member
This bit of bad information may have been due to some very old and very anecdotal findings I had from an old thrower build that could attain roughly -150%. It seemed to pull more agro with -150 versus -80. It was an EK imbue shuriken build BEFORE the imbue pass, though. Not really applicable to today's agro issues and squirrelly to test anyway because of the different damage types.
There's a lot more actual agro testing these days due to push raiding; vryxnr posts nice data, I'd feel good about using his post above.
BTW, I've wondered about some of the other "agro issues" I've seen like dragon flips when the high-agro target does not change; ie. it just spins and swipes at someone. Tail clubbings are obviously positional, but flip-swipes seem different.
My guess is that it's triggered by a "big" attack with some rather arbitrary limit for "bigness" or perhaps due to a character jumping up more than one spot on the agro list.
Ying
5000+ hours played
By whom? Most players have no idea how basic mechanics work in this game, let alone something that requires actual testing.
@Lominal has the best info on threat: https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/spell-threat-reduction.17927/post-229548
Sarlona Raiding
Well-known member
I've never had this issue and have been -110 or so without any negative ramifications.
Unfortunately some people don't want to slot for threat reduction and make every excuse in the book for why they are pulling agro - usually claiming their dps is too high as the main problem. A bug because threat reduction is too high is a new one lol. Don't buy it.
Even with alot of imbue dice and procs I almost never pull agro from a tank with -100% or better threat.
Mindos
CHAOTIC EVIL
Makes me think of the old deception procs that "used to" make the mob turn around. Or maybe it's the quick spike of sneak attack damage? I mean, how do you *really* know the high-agro target didn't change for a split second?
Edit: I don't know if anyone else can see the visual when the deception proc covers the mob in darkness or just the user.
Lominal
Well-known member
As Ying mentioned, from our testing -100 and -130 have the same effect (not pulling over 5 mins, but only with front+ sneak dmg).
- Sneak+ front both use Ranged or melee (as per your attack style).
- Spells, ED spell strikes, SLA use spell threat
- Imbues, Item procs (magma, meltfang, etc) , Mantle procs (fate/shiradi/primal), added rider damage from attacks (fate strike, Dark Imbue, cutter bleed, etc) use no threat reduction.
Bjond
Well-known member
If you're quick, you can assist target and get the target the dragon is attacking. On a true agro flip, it's really easy to see who did it and it's almost always a melee in defender stance. Sometimes these days it's a high-DPS build, but those who make 'em are usually good enough players to know to charge the tank to help flip it back.
'Course, it could have done a micro-second flip and you'd never be quick enough to know for sure.
I think Dragons have a "swat" mechanic that causes them to flip and take a swipe at someone. I don't know what triggers it, but I think it's more than random chance. On some raids, the same dragon is far more "flippy" than others.
SpartanKiller13
Why do I have 522 ddo build files
Draconic mantle procs use spell threat reduction properly; do you mean those mantles proccing via melee/ranged only, or did you test with spells too?
Because I've hit some large numbers with Draconic mantle and never pulled aggro even against Intim tanks across quite a few raids.
Still, thanks for the list.
Oliphant
Well-known member
My experience is -100% or below all behave like -100%.
Mindos
CHAOTIC EVIL
Doh, I totally forgot about that feature.
Lominal
Well-known member
was tested on melee/ranged, but I suspect that anything that checks spell dmg stuff might use spell threat (easiest way to test if its a spell check is see if it can crit).
This would include the draconic mantle, meltfang,magma if procced on a cast, etc.