Only 8 level 20 quests, none of them original

[Greyhawk5]

Given the amount of quests in this game and the landmark that is getting to 20 and heading into Epic, its a real let down there are no original quests at epic lvl 20. Ok, there's one Heroic and as far as I am aware, its the only heroic level 20 quest in the game. Probably could do with retuning it to 19th or making it Epic there SSG. (The Dreaming Dark)

You get Sentinels of Stormreach quests - a rehash of level 7 quests and the Phiarlan Carnival - a rehash of level 5 quests. Zero actual level 20 quests that are not rehashes.

I have a suggestion. A one-off level 20 quest where your at a ceremony marking your new status as a heroic figure in Stormreach when blow me down with a feather, there's an assassination attempt or there's a plot afoot to assassinate you by the Blood Tide (leading into Sentinels). The ghosts of the 18,000 humans you killed on the way to 20 flood into the marketplace during the ceremony and you have to save the day as the residents run in terror. Optionals include going into some of the houses that are normally just unclickable doors and rescuing people. Something along those lines

Maybe could lead on to a series of relatively short quests involving some sewer traversal, a previously flooded part of the waterworks, A deeper section of the steam tunnels etc. Maybe make the final reward an Eveningstar teleport item to lead you into the lvl 21 Eveningstar questline.

 

[Blerkington]

Good idea. But if you've only killed 18000 humans by level 20 you're slacking off.

 

[Chacka]

There were basically only 3 level 20 quests introduced in DDO back when the level cap was 20 and we had no epic content. Then certain quests received an Epic difficulty as an additional difficulty above Elite, to give characters more to do after reaching the level cap of 20. With the Menace of the Underdark expansion we got epic character levels (21–25) for the first time – and with them real, naturally level 21+ quests. The few quests with heroic versions plus a level 20 epic version are basically an inconsistency in DDO: they should be level 21 on Normal difficulty to make them consistently epic. That a character at the highest heroic level (20) is already allowed into most epic content (which should be 21+ by logic) and even legendary content (should be 31+ by logic) is basically no problem – it's a pure design decision. A real problem, in my opinion, was that level 20 characters were locked out of 16–19 quests on Reaper difficulty, and out of all 1–19 quests on the old Hardcore servers. Good news is this inconsitency is removed from DDO.

And even if not all SSG employees agree with me, I think that's a good explanation for the status quo and for the confusion around the question whether a level 20 character is epic or still "heroic" (to my knowledge, D&D 4e characters of level 11–20 are "paragon"). The best evidence for my theory that I can find is an official D&D book about epic character levels: the Epic Level Handbook answers the question "What is an Epic Character?" on page 4 plainly – an epic character is one who has achieved 21st character level, while the normal 3.5 Player's Handbook only describes progression up to level 20.

And this information might help you too.

 

[Greyhawk5]

Oh I have got to 20 with a metric ton of characters, but I always have this awful grind in front of me to get to 21 with so few quests that I have done *so* many times now that the last thing I want to see is yet another sentinels run.

This game has long since left many of the actual DnD rules behind. I consider its "based" on DnD now rather than actually trying to stick to the rules. Fact is, you get Epic destinies at 20 therefore at 20 your an Epic level character and there should be more content at that level considering this is a milestone of character progression. Two rehashed quest series kind of doesn't cut it - especially when the carnival one is dire (IMO - any quest series where you need to protect an NPC is an immediate "never do again" on my list!) The sentinels one I could do in my sleep.

Just seems some levels get little love. About time 20 got a few more quests.

 

[eightspoons]

Trademark grumpy old duffer rant:

They keep saying they can't do epic and legendary quests at the same time. I'm not sure I believe that, but even if that is true surely it is time to focus a bit of development time on resolving the issue.

Except for one or two areas, 1-19 is thoroughly bulked out with quests and items now. Time to devote some attention to 20-29 (because it REALLY needs it) and make a few packs/expansions that are Epic + Legendary. Enough quests chock full or rats, spiders, bats, birds, bugs, goblins and kobolds (yes, I know some people are bizarre fans of them) that are 'legendary' only because they have absurd saves and the HP of a demi-god. Still doesn't make them feel epic, let alone legendary.

But I know that won't happen because there continues to be, as far as I can tell, a significant minority who insist on only playing heroics who would kick up an almighty fuss if they were to be denied new content just because they dislike or actively refuse to go beyond 20.

At the very least, they could actually go in and make Shadowfell items something slightly better than atrocious. Could even go the extra mile and fabricate a mid-20s raid to finally complete the expansion pack.

Level 20/38 expansion or pack, then 24/38, 27/40. Can't see the problem with those level ranges. Might even be enough to tempt me back.

But just more level 20 stuff for sure.

 

[CherryBomb]

This wasn't much of a concern until the reapers forced limited level ranges and the wheels really fell off the truck when they brought in lengendary. Until these things happened, epic levels didn't much matter as you could run any epic at any epic level and get full xp. You were only limited to your character's /party's ability to complete the quest.

Reaper modes limiting available ranges further reduces the content that can be used for full xp in the epics.

Now most all new content is designated to fill in legendary and epic support is left to rot with whatever came before. The irony is that you have to pass through all epic levels to get to the legendary while many quests were reassigned to be legendary only.

 

[Chacka]

Oh I have got to 20 with a metric ton of characters, but I always have this awful grind in front of me to get to 21 with so few quests that I have done *so* many times now that the last thing I want to see is yet another sentinels run.

This game has long since left many of the actual DnD rules behind. I consider its "based" on DnD now rather than actually trying to stick to the rules. Fact is, you get Epic destinies at 20 therefore at 20 your an Epic level character and there should be more content at that level considering this is a milestone of character progression. Two rehashed quest series kind of doesn't cut it - especially when the carnival one is dire (IMO - any quest series where you need to protect an NPC is an immediate "never do again" on my list!) The sentinels one I could do in my sleep.

Just seems some levels get little love. About time 20 got a few more quests.

Also, the Epic Destinies are something you get in the normal D&D world at level 21 (D&D 4e+). The reason we can use them in DDO from level 20 on is most likely a concession to the players: it's allowed to gather ED experience already at level 20, and it's allowed to use the EDs already at level 20 after an ER. But this doesn't change the fact that a level 20 character should not be considered epic – in DDO either and I'm quite sure the DDO developers from the Menace of the Underdark times where aware of these fact. And by the way, DDO is mostly consistent on this point: you get all "heroic levels" at the class trainer, and your first epic level at the Epic Fatespinner. A character without an epic character level is not epic – that's just pure logic. You also get every epic feat at level 21+, and none at level 20. Afaik the normal D&D world doesn't know anything about "legendary", but it would just be consistent logic if the scheme continued here as well: in D&D, 1–10 is heroic, 11–20 is "paragon" (D&D 4e), and 21+ is epic. Therefore, if SSG wants to call certain character levels and the corresponding content "legendary", it should be levels 31–40 and CR 31–40.

And again, all of this is not only consistent with the normal D&D universe – it is also (for me) obvious and relatively simple logic!

And by the way, nothing speaks against new level 20 quests because of these facts – there is just no reason to restrict level 1–19 quests for level 20 characters. I would have no objection if SSG gave no XP to level 21+ characters for doing level 1–20 quests, if they think that's necessary for game balance. But not for level 20 characters – by logic. If they think current level 20 characters are too strong for heroic 16–20 quests, they should make EDs 21+, or nerf level 20 characters in another way, or just live with that small concession to the players. And by the way, this is basically the current situation – and I can live with the fact that SSG doesn't want to officially declare that they agree that level 20 is "heroic" (paragon in D&D 4e).

 

[mikarddo]

Oh I have got to 20 with a metric ton of characters, but I always have this awful grind in front of me to get to 21 with so few quests that I have done *so* many times now that the last thing I want to see is yet another sentinels run.

This game has long since left many of the actual DnD rules behind. I consider its "based" on DnD now rather than actually trying to stick to the rules. Fact is, you get Epic destinies at 20 therefore at 20 your an Epic level character and there should be more content at that level considering this is a milestone of character progression. Two rehashed quest series kind of doesn't cut it - especially when the carnival one is dire (IMO - any quest series where you need to protect an NPC is an immediate "never do again" on my list!) The sentinels one I could do in my sleep.

Just seems some levels get little love. About time 20 got a few more quests.

I am curious. Why do you think you have to run quests that are exactly level 20 when you are level 20?

A grind to get to 21? I find it very fast and nowhere near a grind so your statement confuse me a bit

 

[Contessor]

Given the amount of quests in this game and the landmark that is getting to 20 and heading into Epic, its a real let down there are no original quests at epic lvl 20. Ok, there's one Heroic and as far as I am aware, its the only heroic level 20 quest in the game. Probably could do with retuning it to 19th or making it Epic there SSG. (The Dreaming Dark)

You get Sentinels of Stormreach quests - a rehash of level 7 quests and the Phiarlan Carnival - a rehash of level 5 quests. Zero actual level 20 quests that are not rehashes.

I have a suggestion. A one-off level 20 quest where your at a ceremony marking your new status as a heroic figure in Stormreach when blow me down with a feather, there's an assassination attempt or there's a plot afoot to assassinate you by the Blood Tide (leading into Sentinels). The ghosts of the 18,000 humans you killed on the way to 20 flood into the marketplace during the ceremony and you have to save the day as the residents run in terror. Optionals include going into some of the houses that are normally just unclickable doors and rescuing people. Something along those lines

Maybe could lead on to a series of relatively short quests involving some sewer traversal, a previously flooded part of the waterworks, A deeper section of the steam tunnels etc. Maybe make the final reward an Eveningstar teleport item to lead you into the lvl 21 Eveningstar questline.

Dreaming Dark is an original level 20.

 

[Chacka]

Dreaming Dark is an original level 20.

The only consistent natural level 20 quests in DDO are The Dreaming Dark, Tower of Despair and Lord of Blades – designed specifically for level 20 characters at the time when level 20 was the cap, before we got the first epic character levels (21–25) with the Menace of the Underdark expansion. The other quests with base level 20 should be 21 on Normal difficulty if SSG wants to make the situation consistent.

 

[Greyhawk5]

I am curious. Why do you think you have to run quests that are exactly level 20 when you are level 20?

A grind to get to 21? I find it very fast and nowhere near a grind so your statement confuse me a bit

I mostly do EH (filthy casual here), doing lvl 21 quests at 20 I would be two levels lower than the quest level when doing those on EH. That can be a bit tricky, plus at 21 its easier cos I can equip the KotB items which are better than the usual level 20 slop I get from the Eveningstar vendors. Its probably cake for most people but not for me. I used to be pretty good at these games back in the day, sadly I took an arrow to the knee so I'm not as fast as I was. Would be easy for my best geared main, but these alts - not so much

 

[SecretPhiarlanMan]

Part of the reason they let you use Epic Destinies and give you some freebie points when you hit 20, is 20 used to be party mandatory way back in the day to level up till you got some gear and points. At least, that's the way I remember it. I remember getting to 20 before Ravenloft came out and struggling mightily, but I also didn't know the game in a great and meaningful way.

Maybe I just sucked back then? Anyway, 20-21 is very easy. A lot of people get to 21 just farming Lords of Dust, Bargain of Blood, and Devil Assault for tokens for their eventual TR.

I'm not disputing Epic Levels need more love. They do. They've been neglected like those animals you see in the commercials around Christmas time when you're trying to watch the news.

Kind of wild how the quest range goes from 20-21 (22 if we're stretching it) and then seems to just do nothing till 24+ for TBC and after that, I don't even know what is within epic level range. I always have to do legendary quests by the time I hit mid 20's because it's not very intuitive for even-con stuff to do.

And that's factoring in the retread quests. They don't work on Epic content because they're probably worried it's a waste of resources because people don't stay there long, due to the faster xp curve. Funny thing is, a lot of people hit 20, sit there and go, "What do I do now?" and I've had a fair number of people in the past tell me that's about the point they quit at, because there was very little to do as a first lifer with limited gear, even WITH Eveningstar. This is because Eveningstar isn't consistent. A lot of quests there don't have Epic variations.

If they're saying they can't do quests that are epic as well as legendary, well.... I don't know enough about the QT engine to know its limitations, but the branch that handles Lotro doesn't seem to have any issues with level scaling for instances/dungeons/etc.


Probably rambling, sorry. Just some thoughts.
-Your neighborhood Phiarlan

 

[norriskwondo]

Given the amount of quests in this game and the landmark that is getting to 20 and heading into Epic, its a real let down there are no original quests at epic lvl 20. Ok, there's one Heroic and as far as I am aware, its the only heroic level 20 quest in the game. Probably could do with retuning it to 19th or making it Epic there SSG. (The Dreaming Dark)

You get Sentinels of Stormreach quests - a rehash of level 7 quests and the Phiarlan Carnival - a rehash of level 5 quests. Zero actual level 20 quests that are not rehashes.

I have a suggestion. A one-off level 20 quest where your at a ceremony marking your new status as a heroic figure in Stormreach when blow me down with a feather, there's an assassination attempt or there's a plot afoot to assassinate you by the Blood Tide (leading into Sentinels). The ghosts of the 18,000 humans you killed on the way to 20 flood into the marketplace during the ceremony and you have to save the day as the residents run in terror. Optionals include going into some of the houses that are normally just unclickable doors and rescuing people. Something along those lines

Maybe could lead on to a series of relatively short quests involving some sewer traversal, a previously flooded part of the waterworks, A deeper section of the steam tunnels etc. Maybe make the final reward an Eveningstar teleport item to lead you into the lvl 21 Eveningstar questline.

if you include epic borderlands at level 21 you get another 8, but borderlands all together is only enough to bring you up approx. 1 or 2 levels

 

[norriskwondo]

if you include epic borderlands at level 21 you get another 8, but borderlands all together is only enough to bring you up approx. 1 or 2 levels

And borderlands epic isnt really all that generous with certain gear pieces as people would like you to think

 

[Owlbear]

Why play only level 20 quests when you can also do level 21 or 22 etc. though? Quest level really isn't that important when you reach Epic.

 

[norriskwondo]

Why play only level 20 quests when you can also do level 21 or 22 etc. though? Quest level really isn't that important when you reach Epic.

Yeah, but to maximize xp earnings, you need to play hard, elite, or reaper, and then quest level becomes very relevant, as well as your gear, which is also severly lacking. That may change if I understand correctly that you can upgrade the new gear set to level 26.

 

[FaceDancer]

Why play only level 20 quests when you can also do level 21 or 22 etc. though? Quest level really isn't that important when you reach Epic.

A first time player reaching epic might not agree with you, but all of the well versed ones would!

 

[Owlbear]

Yeah, but to maximize xp earnings, you need to play hard, elite, or reaper, and then quest level becomes very relevant, as well as your gear, which is also severly lacking. That may change if I understand correctly that you can upgrade the new gear set to level 26.

There are a lot of quests that give better XP than others. Also running Saga's is better XP. I doubt running all quests on level (like running level 20 quests on level 20) is that much better to maximize xp earnings. But I don't really look at the numbers so feel free to prove me wrong if I am.

 

[Owlbear]

A first time player reaching epic might not agree with you, but all of the well versed ones would!

Why? Quest level isn't always the same as difficulty. Some content is just harder than others. And new players don't have to worry about maximizing XP anyway. They can just play whatever they want to and enjoy the first time experience of running the quest. That's one of the Pro's of Epic. You're not that limited anymore of staying near your level range.

 

[norriskwondo]

There are a lot of quests that give better XP than others. Also running Saga's is better XP. I doubt running all quests on level (like running level 20 quests on level 20) is that much better to maximize xp earnings. But I don't really look at the numbers so feel free to prove me wrong if I am.

As far as I know the only saga for level 20 is actually heroic elite with Vecna. Borderlands is just a quest chain. The xp reward for playing legendary sagas at casual or normal difficulties isn't nearly
as much as you make out to be.