Patience feat
- Thread starter Ballrus
- Start date
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
Generally yes, but it also depends on your crit range.
davidcysero
Well-known member
the question is do you have the "patience" looking at your character doing a 5% attack speed animation?
Fisto Mk I
Well-known member
Cleave line clearly affected too because cleave depends from base attack speed after U45. Possible some/all other special attacks too.
So currently Patience really viable only for throwers and mebbe SWF builds.
So currently Patience really viable only for throwers and mebbe SWF builds.
Dandonk
Beater of Dead Horses
I have not checked with Patience specifically, but Cleaves and chains seem to be to be very much affected if I have haste boost on or not.
I may be old and mistaken, so would love it if other people test this more thoroughly than my "seeming".
woq
Well-known member
Pretty safe to take Patience on swf on anything better than 16-20 threat, but make sure you realize what you lose as oppourtunity cost for taking the feat and that the cost is not only losing 10% attack speed, but also whatever the other feat would have given you.
Patience gets better with the number of active attacks you have because while they are slower to land with less attack speed, a number of them have increased threat ranges or guaranteed threat profile for a guaranteed crit which makes Patience stellar for them. On top of this, certain animations can be clipped with other active attacks and can cancel animations. A number of active attacks hit more times than a regular attack while taking the time of a singular regular attack, etc.
All of this adds up to a situation where Patience is definitely worth consideration on a number of builds.
Edit: Also note: Patience is additive, not multiplicative so it's better on SWF builds than other builds on average for autoattacks. I would not take it on wrap Razorclaw builds EVER, but I could be wrong there too. I would definitely take it on a 18-20x2 base crit weapon SWF build. I would probably not take it on a 20x3 or 20x4 build regardless of swf status. I would definitely consider it for a 2h build revolving around full threat horc build relying on big adrenalines/unbridled fury burst in Time Stop windows.
Patience gets better with the number of active attacks you have because while they are slower to land with less attack speed, a number of them have increased threat ranges or guaranteed threat profile for a guaranteed crit which makes Patience stellar for them. On top of this, certain animations can be clipped with other active attacks and can cancel animations. A number of active attacks hit more times than a regular attack while taking the time of a singular regular attack, etc.
All of this adds up to a situation where Patience is definitely worth consideration on a number of builds.
Edit: Also note: Patience is additive, not multiplicative so it's better on SWF builds than other builds on average for autoattacks. I would not take it on wrap Razorclaw builds EVER, but I could be wrong there too. I would definitely take it on a 18-20x2 base crit weapon SWF build. I would probably not take it on a 20x3 or 20x4 build regardless of swf status. I would definitely consider it for a 2h build revolving around full threat horc build relying on big adrenalines/unbridled fury burst in Time Stop windows.
woq
Well-known member
I'd also add that sneak attacks and imbues do not crit but do doublestrike (with some exceptions like DH bleed imbue thing a
faik), so if you're doing your best to scale those and fail to find it in you to have a high W melee weapon, Deadly covered in your items (+damage), and don't get a lot of flat damage in your build - then taking Patience may lead to requiring more patience while killing monsters to get to the end of the quest.
faik), so if you're doing your best to scale those and fail to find it in you to have a high W melee weapon, Deadly covered in your items (+damage), and don't get a lot of flat damage in your build - then taking Patience may lead to requiring more patience while killing monsters to get to the end of the quest.
Terranigma
Well-known member
Active attacks are unique in how they handle accepting increases or decreases to speed. Each active attack animation can following a different ruleset for how haste applies to it. For instance, here are some numbers I have measuring timing of 3 different attacks with and without haste boost (BAB 25, Haste):
| Attack | No Haste Boost | Haste Boost (30%) | Difference |
| Quick Cutter | 0.87 seconds | 0.78 seconds | ~10% change |
| Whirlwind Attack | 1.20 seconds | 0.84 seconds | ~30% change |
| Sunder (Fist style) | 0.90 seconds | 0.81 seconds | ~10% change |
Notice how Whirwind Attack fully accepts the increase from Haste Boost, but Quick Cutter and Unarmed Sunder only 33% accept increases from Haste Boost. Oddly, the converse is also true where attack animations like Quick Cutter and Unarmed Sunder only 33% accept slowdowns from things like Patience, Slow, Exhaustion, or Binding Chains, while Whirlwind Attack will drastically slow down with attack speed inhibiters (I don't have the measured times, but I've seen it frequently when bound doing Vision of Destruction). This makes some active attacks more ideal than others when using Patience.
Dandonk
Beater of Dead Horses
Awesome information, thanks!
Zvdegor
Melee Artificer Freak
What about Rapid Slash, Bless Blades, En Pointe and Cleaves? Have U tested those?
Terranigma
Well-known member
No. I haven't been playing a build recently with them, but wouldn't be too difficult to take a look.
Terranigma
Well-known member
So... most interesting thing I found was that Rapid Slash and Blessed Blades are the same animation, but both have different values for how much they let Haste/Slow affect them. I did not spec in a Cleave for the character (I believe they are full gain of Haste/Slow). Done as a BAB 20, Greater Single Weapon Fighting, Hasted character.
| Attack | No Haste Boost | Haste Boost (30%) | Difference (and adjusted) |
| Rapid Slash | 1.38 | 1.33 | 3.6% (5%) |
| Blessed Blades | 1.38 | 1.27 | 4.6% (6%) |
| En Pointe | 1.42 | 1.35 | 8.4% (10%) |
| Blade of Discord | 0.73 | 0.62 | 16% (20%) |
| The Sword Sings | 0.78 | 0.58 | 25% (30%) |
Entries in parenthesis are adjusted as-if Greater Single Weapon Fighting wasn't in the mix. Because of having Greater Single Weapon Fighting, the math in the Difference Column is probably higher in all categories by about 20% (making The Sword Sings a full increase/decrease from attack speed, Blade of Discord a 66% change, Blessed Blades a 33% change, En Pointe a 20% change, and Rapid Slash a 15% change).
I guess some of this translates to Rapid Slash, Blessed Blades, and En Pointe being awesome for Patience users, as they will not really be slowed down much.
One other thing to be wary of playing a Vistani Knife Fighter is one shouldn't use Rapid Slash and Blessed Blades back-to-back. Because they share the same animation, if you somehow play them fast enough, the second attack animation will not register a hit box detection and hit nothing.
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Zvdegor
Melee Artificer Freak
My attack sequence is
1. Rapid Slash (for the +20%DS)
2. Whirlwind Attack
3. Blessed Blades
4. Kinetic Discharge (360° attack for arti)
5. Mighty Slam (if needed)
The reason I use 1,2 and 3 in this order because I also noticed if hitting Blessed Blades too soon after Rapid Slash, it goes down the drain.
WWA doesn't break RS's animation (or vica versa) and also can use BB after without any problem.
Rapid Slash + Cleave + Blessed Blades + Greater Cleave also worked for me in the past.
TY for checking for me!
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Imagine the tooltip actually displaying these values...
You'd say it's rather relevant. When an attack says it deals +3W (or now +30%) I always think "but how slow is it?". And usually I don't bother to check, so I don't use it. Newer players would probably assume it's exactly as fast as a basic attack and use and not only waste build points but also waste DPS.
The (main?) strong point of DDO is that you have all these interesting choices to make. It's not exactly an immersive gaming experience or a compelling story, so you'd guess they'd make the choices-part as good as it can be. But instead we have to make decisions based on partial information, which is about as good as no information at all when it comes to making a choice.
The first step would be disclosing this information in-game (ideally including speed scalar).
The second step would probably be realizing it's silly to have all these different speeds, and normalizing them to exactly the same speed as a base attack
Really, I believe DDO is waaay too concerned with it's animations for their audience. Just get the numbers right first, and then make something slightly better than a t-pose to fit that and be done with it.
I'm planning Warhammer, with Knight training, Keen Edges, Strike with no thought, Overhelming critical and maybe Pulverizor (16-20 / x4?).
Good point.
Mindos
CHAOTIC EVIL
Now this is odd.
Don't worry, I'm sure a one second full pause added to the end of each animation will solve this problem!
It's all animations and collision detection.