Pinion vs Epic Sapphire Sting

Selvera

Member
So It's been a bit since I've looked into bows, and some things have changed since then; notably the weapon die change has buffed pinion from 2.5 to 3.6 and nerfed sapphire sting from 5 to (wiki says 4.4, in game my bow says 4.2). They both have their main selling points of an improved critical profile and 20% ranged alacrity.

While I'd heard in old posts that Epic Sting was the better bow, personally I've never felt that much of an improvement going from pinion to sting, and I'm wondering if this change shifts the balance to Pinion just being better despite being a lower level.

Here's some math from me:
Pinion 4.85[2d6]+8 = 41.95 damage
Sting 5.45[1d8]+7 = 31.525 damage
(Before the weapon die change this used to be pinion at 34 and sting at 35)

Now the riders; E sting does have improved destruction along with greater maiming and greater humanoid bane, I'm not sure if maiming scales with ranged power or not, but I don't think it does, while humanoid bane improves the bow to 35.525 damage vs humanoids and adds a 3d6 non scaling additive.
Pinion has 3d6 against most everything by base, 10 seeker (which is slightly worse then random loot can get at that level) and the ability to combine it with a planer focus. While planner focuses certainly aren't the best endgame trinket; they certainly fit the bill for a level 23 character and remain competitive up until endgame gear comes into play (at which point you'll want to swap to an endgame bow anyways).

So has this change just essentially made the Epic Sapphire Sting obsolete? (for folks who have a pinion as well)
 

FVSHasBeenEvenMoreGutted

Well-known member
i would say problem 1 is leveling a bow toon. barring that, with the changes the difference between the 2 is very small and hardly noticeable. that being said, for my gearset and how I level pinion is better because IMO its hard to get seeker on a ranged toon if u run wallwatch. yes there are many items, but that's just how I gear at 21. pinion is also lower level thus if u like sentient gems u need 1 and not 2
 

saekee

long live ROGUE
humaniod bane, maiming—stuff like that does not matter as they do not scale at all, other than if the mob is helpless. The base damage is everything for the +% attacks. So it looks like Pinion wins easily according to your math.

For seeker, epic ring of the stalker is seeker 11, very good at that level 20 and with other useful stuff tossed in. You can craft 10 seeker at level 21 on a trinket too (like Gem of MF) as another option.
 

Buddha5440

Well-known member
Why isn't Epic Thornlord ever mentioned in posts about bows?

3{1d8+2} (basically ~2d5) with 15% fort bypass, 3% Ins DblShot, and 4d6 piercing... add a red augment for 6d6 (which Pinion is lacking until upgraded (and not everyone raids to get the Comms to upgrade it) plus a spellcraft augment (if you are AA)).
 

kmoustakas

Scourge of Xaos
Why isn't Epic Thornlord ever mentioned in posts about bows?

3{1d8+2} (basically ~2d5) with 15% fort bypass, 3% Ins DblShot, and 4d6 piercing... add a red augment for 6d6 (which Pinion is lacking until upgraded (and not everyone raids to get the Comms to upgrade it) plus a spellcraft augment (if you are AA)).
This. With the changes to S/S/S and then Ws, I assumed Thornlord autowins.
 

Selvera

Member
While pinion and sting are very similar bows (same critical profile, same ranged alacrity); Thornlord doesn't have the alacrity and thus would have to make some assumptions and rough math to compare it to the above mentioned. I don't have a Thornlord due to my aversion to s/s/s meaning I got most of the other good bows first, so I'll be going with the wiki page's description of it.

Thornlord: 4.25[1d8+2]+6 = 33.625 base damage -> better then new sting but worse then (upgraded) pinion.

And for the riders; here's what I have to say about them.
Better critical profile -> I'm guessing a low-epic bow build with pinion or sting to have a critical profile of 16-20x5 instead of a normal bow's 17-20x5. The difference in this is a profile of x2.0 instead of x1.8; or a 11% increase in (most) damage, but only against targets that don't have fort or that you bypass the fort of.
Armor piercing 15% -> while I'm sure you can make a better gearset to work this in better, I'm likely to be wearing a Family Recruit Sigil; which gives 12% armor piercing; so this is a 3% increase to AP over what my gear would have. Given the critical profile, this is about a 2.4% increase in damage against targets with fortification.
Piercing 4d6 (14 damage average) -> This doesn't scale with ranged power or with critical hits. Given this, assuming somewhere near 100 ranged power and a x2.0 critical profile (what most builds using a thornlord probably have), we're looking at this being worth ~4 base damage.
Insightful Doubleshot 3% -> This is rather difficult to find from other sources; although there are some options out there I wouldn't usually have them. Given a bow build may have somewhere in the order of 80% doubleshot around level 20; this is about a 1.6% increase in damage.
Thornlord also gets a colorless augment slot in addition to the augments that the other 2 bows get; and potentially a set bonus that gives defensive benefits.

Adding this all up; my math puts Thornlord at 37.6 damage and 15% bonus damage.

Comparing that to the pinion (41.95 base damage) we have:
Better critical profile -> I'm guessing a low-epic bow build with pinion or sting to have a critical profile of 16-20x5 instead of a normal bow's 17-20x5. The difference in this is a profile of x2.0 instead of x1.8; or a 11% increase in (most) damage, but only against targets that don't have fort or that you bypass the fort of.
Ranged alacrity 20% -> I'm guessing a low-epic bow build without a pinion will have 10% ranged alacrity from some source; so I'm taking this to be about a 9% increase in attack speed, perhaps I should test it instead of guessing.
Seeker 10 -> as mentioned you can get better on gear, I might not, but you probably should.
Shrieking 3d6 (10.5 damage average) -> Also does not scale, using the same math as I used for piercing; this is worth about 3 base damage.
Planer conflux -> While I may find this useful, I don't think it is in a fully optimized build, so I won't include it.

Adding this up; I calculate pinion to be 45 damage and 20% bonus damage. (And yes, I'm aware that I can't just add up numbers like that and it being exactly correct, but I think it proves the point well enough)

Now Thornlord may(now) be easier to get then a fully upgraded pinion, it has a lower (and optimal) minimum level and has those defensive benefits with the set bonus, but in terms of raw damage, it appears to me that Pinion is the clear winner.

Edit: I noticed thornlord does have an expanded crit profile.
 
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Ahpuch

Well-known member
Don't epic thornlord and pinion have the same crit profile? 19-20x3 is listed as the base for both.

Factor in some sentience onto the bow and which ever has sentience will be superior even with only 3 or so filigrees. So which do you want to bother with adding 12K or more sentience XP? If you don't run 20-23 much then pinion might make sense but if you do run 20-23 getting the extra power earlier will help. And if you have Seeker and or alacrity on some other equipment, pinion just doesn't look that great.
 

kmoustakas

Scourge of Xaos
Also thornlord is bta vs btc!

I think in other words, if you have pinion use it, if you don't but have sting use it, if you have neither making a thornlord is super fast/easy because it's a sands wilderness item. You can trade antique tokens for it then upgrade with sands crystals and you are good to go.

None of these is good after 28 anyway.
 

saekee

long live ROGUE
Also thornlord is bta vs btc!

I think in other words, if you have pinion use it, if you don't but have sting use it, if you have neither making a thornlord is super fast/easy because it's a sands wilderness item. You can trade antique tokens for it then upgrade with sands crystals and you are good to go.

None of these is good after 28 anyway.
yes and since Buddha has brought up Thornlord—that seems the way—improved crit range (its legendary version did not get it) and even the insightful doubleshot make it a real winner. That would make it the best epic leveling bow.

Elasticity or whatever is used as the term puts later bows over the top. The heroic Xoriat bow or Twisted willow with it cannot accept sentience obviously yet I wonder how it they would compare if sentience were not a factor. I suppose the lower W numbers removes them from the equation?

It is a similar issue with assassins. I was using the drow dagger for the longest time as my epic leveling weapon due to its expanded crit profile. Since I switched to kukris, I swapped over to an EMG since some of its secondary abilities (like paralyze) still proc sometimes in lower epics and I had a GS radiance I could put in the offhand for the blindness.
 

Fisto Mk I

Well-known member
I had a GS radiance I could put in the offhand for the blindness.
You can use ML20 triple Water (or T2 Air for DS/Lightning strike/+2 Alch Dex, or T2 Earth for Disintegration/+2 Alch Con) Alchemical Dagger/Kukri with freezing Gale for AoE and Freezing Ice for CC. 8)
 

Ying

5000+ hours played
You're comparing a ML24 and ML26 bow. Are you using these just to level, or are you using them as your primary weapon in Legendary content? If it's the latter, why aren't you considering a Dino Long Bow or raid bows like Chaosbow?
 

Scrag

Well-known member
On this topic, I hear that boltbow is not actually that good? I have one and want to do a bow life at some point, but only have that for an endgame bow, or a dino longbow
 

Ying

5000+ hours played
Aerania, the Boltbow is fine. It just isn't optimal. Chaosbow is better due to the Fetters.
 

Scrag

Well-known member
I saw the fetters, but don't run much killing time and have no idea how frequent it drops. If it is "fine" i think that is "good enough" for me. :)
 

Onyxia2016

Well-known member
It seems that each of the bows mentioned has times when they shine. Just depends on what you are running.
Simply leveling, raiding and what monsters you are up against can swing the meter as to which one would be better.

If you run multiple alts, having a bow you can share between them is nice but if you only run one character and then TR, well a BtC item may not be an issue for you.

There are very few weapons that, reign supreme in all situation. Unless you want to carry several different weapons the best you can do is pick the one that will be the most helpful for what you run and just power through monsters the weapons is not optimum for.
 

Selvera

Member
You're comparing a ML24 and ML26 bow. Are you using these just to level, or are you using them as your primary weapon in Legendary content? If it's the latter, why aren't you considering a Dino Long Bow or raid bows like Chaosbow?
Leveling primarily; previously I would unthinkingly just go Random loot -> Sting -> Unwavering Ardency -> Pinion -> Epic Sting -> TR. But thinking about it a little it appears that Pinion -> Epic sting is now a downgrade, not an upgrade.

As for endgame bows; I think Chaosbow is currently BIS, and I recently picked one of those up, but sorting endgame gear out is something that changes often and is better left for folks who keep characters at level cap on these builds rather then someone who TR's frequently.
 

Marshal_Lannes

Well-known member
With opening up of Skeletons augments for purchase, Dino Longbow is the best choice for endgame.

The Seeker 10 on Pinion plays a large role in bow design because it allows you to equip a Planar Focus in the trinket slot. Otherwise, you're likely slotting the Epic Bloodstone or the Epic Seeker trinket from Borderlands. Let's say you're using +3 insightful DEX and getting +8 insightful SA damage and 3% dodge. I mean, that's pretty good. When you factor that in, I would imagine the big crits on Pinion are much larger than on Sting.
 

Ying

5000+ hours played
> Dino Longbow is the best choice for endgame.

It's not. Elasticity on Chaosbow does more damage than the W delta. You're still going to use Vuln on a bow due to imbue dice, and group composition synergy considerations.
 

Fisto Mk I

Well-known member
> Dino Longbow is the best choice for endgame.

It's not. Elasticity on Chaosbow does more damage than the W delta. You're still going to use Vuln on a bow due to imbue dice, and group composition synergy considerations.
Still arguable. Of course, raw physical damage from Chaosbow is better, but how about other possibilities? Brighthorn provide nice survivability, Aspect of Tar provide oozes to additional damage/tanking, Meltscale and Meltfang provide additional 15d6 per hit +50d10 per tick... Attuned blank have purple/orange vs. red/orange at Chaosbow, purple slot can be fitted with Feareater... and in the end, attuned bow is part of Dread set.

I wanna see more calculation for decision than simple "Chaosbow just better" (personally i use it, but... attuned seems very appealing... very!). 8)
 

Ying

5000+ hours played
It's just math. DDO is a complex math problem with a pretty UI.

Using Ying's Reaper Bow build as a reference for enhancements, class split, RP and dshot, since it's the top tier bow build.

The delta between Attuned Dino and Chaosbow is 0.6W. That's an average of 4.5 damage ((1d8 + 3) * 0.6).

On a dice roll of 2-16:

4.5 * 5.59 RP * 2.29 Dshot * 15 = 864 damage.

On a dice roll of 17-18:

4.5 * 5.59 RP * 2.29 Dshot * 5 multiplier * 2 crit range = 1152 damage.

On a dice roll of 19-20:

4.5 * 5.59 RP * 2.29 Dshot * 7 multiplier * 2 crit range = 1612 damage.

That's a total of 3628 damage (864 + 1152 + 1612) that the Attuned Dino Longbow is doing with the 4.5 damage delta from the ML differences.

With an additional 19-20 crit multiplier on a Chaosbow:

(199 base damage + 35 seeker damage) * 5.59 RP * 2.29 Dshot * 2 crit range = 5990 damage.

Weapon crit multipliers scale exceptionally well.

We're comparing Vuln to Vuln for simplicity's sake. If you want to use Ooze, then you're doing less damage. Proc damage is trivial. The acid dot damage already applies with the Chaosbow setup. And just throwing things out there like "it's part of the Dread set" is meaningless when you don't provide a full gear list.
 
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