Pinion vs Epic Sapphire Sting

Marshal_Lannes

Well-known member
It's not just math. You are providing a formula for max DPS. Max DPS is not the only equation when factoring in a weapon. As I said, with the opening of Skeleton augments, the Dino Longbow is the best, most versatile choice for most players. Chaosbow does more damage on a 19-20 critical hit. If you're going to use a weapon that isn't part of the IoD or Morgrave set bonus you are making sacrifices that also have to be factored in.
 

popejubal

Avatar of Jell-O
It's not just math. You are providing a formula for max DPS. Max DPS is not the only equation when factoring in a weapon. As I said, with the opening of Skeleton augments, the Dino Longbow is the best, most versatile choice for most players. Chaosbow does more damage on a 19-20 critical hit. If you're going to use a weapon that isn't part of the IoD or Morgrave set bonus you are making sacrifices that also have to be factored in.
You’re only making “sacrifices” if you are running that set and the weapon is what makes the difference between getting the set bonus and not getting the set bonus.

If getting the set bonus is going to make a big difference for your build, then you can put up with a bow that isn’t as good. Or you could go with a different set and the weapon set bonus doesn’t matter.

Also, Dino can’t be used for Epic leveling, so you’re hyping a weapon that isn’t relevant for a lot of the content that Pinion and Sting are great for.
 

Marshal_Lannes

Well-known member
Also, Dino can’t be used for Epic leveling, so you’re hyping a weapon that isn’t relevant for a lot of the content that Pinion and Sting are great for.
If this is what you're taking from the conversation you haven't played enough archer lives or aren't paying attention. I respect Ying. However, his view is focused entirely on DPS in a controlled group environment. For 95% of people in the game environments they will play in, a Dino Bow will be a better choice.
 

PraetorPlato

Well-known member
Unless you mean Salt, Dino doesn't bring unique CC (more important in messy environments), so we're back to the damage output math problem. If you do mean salt, Dino salt is far worse than actual LGS Salt (1 stack vs. 8)
 

popejubal

Avatar of Jell-O
If this is what you're taking from the conversation you haven't played enough archer lives or aren't paying attention. I respect Ying. However, his view is focused entirely on DPS in a controlled group environment. For 95% of people in the game environments they will play in, a Dino Bow will be a better choice.
“This” is an additional comment for context and emphasis. The rest of my post that you didn’t quote was the core of my message.

You’re also forgetting to talk about something very important if you want to encourage people to have flexibility in their weapon. If you want more flexibility, the answer isn’t “get a Dino bow.” The answer is get multiple bows. If you are soloing or you’re in a PUG, you’re going to need to take care of every helpful/necessary weapon effect on your own because you can’t count on the rest of the party to supply it. They might have what’s helpful/necessary but they might not. My nuker has 5 Dino sticks for exactly that reason - when I need to, I can contribute anything/everything that’s helpful from those effects. But none of those 5 Dino sticks are “the best nuker weapon”.

I think that some of the issue also comes down to different people having different understanding of what “endgame” means. If you think “endgame” is just anything level 30+ and you are just running R8 Grim and Barrett in a decent PUG, then just bring whatever. LGS Salt, anything with Freezing Ice type procs, Pinion, Sapphire Sting, an unattuned Dino bow, whatever. It will be fine. But I don’t think that’s “endgame”. I think a decent definition of “endgame” is the legendary content that you can’t consistently beat - the stuff where you have to work to get a completion and you know you might not pull it off because you’re pushing your limits. In that kind of content, you need a group where everyone is contributing the kind of things that you get in a controlled group environment. Because you aren’t going to complete endgame content without a solid group where all the big items are covered by the party as a whole.
 

Marshal_Lannes

Well-known member
I agree, you should have multiple bows. There is no content any well-geared archer can't complete. I can run R10s at level 25 and do reasonably well. Unless you are talking about pushing R++ raids which less than 1% of the population engages in. I consider that niche gameplay, like those who do permadeath on live servers.
 

Oliphant

Well-known member
I'm contemplating a bow life and looking at my stock of sentient jewels, and a bit tired of spending USD on kits repeatedly and I'm probably going to power through epics without a sentient weapon and then just stick with Chaosbow. Since I have not been doing bow lately, I only have a Choasbow loaded up with filigrees right now.
 
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Ahpuch

Well-known member
I'm contemplating a bow life and looking at my stock of sentient jewels, and a bit tired of spending USD on kits repeatedly and I'm probably going to power through epics without a sentient weapon and then just stick with Chaosbow. Since I have not been doing bow lately, I only have a Choasbow loaded up with filigrees right now.
It doesn't hurt to drop a gem on an epic thornlord and put a couple of filigrees on it. It doesn't take much to get to 3 filigrees (6 K XP) and +3 to a stat or +3 attack/dmg is nice to have. I don't bother with swapping gems between end game and leveling bows because that is a waste of tools.
 

Ying

5000+ hours played
It's not just math. You are providing a formula for max DPS. Max DPS is not the only equation when factoring in a weapon.
Yeah, doing Max DPS is bad. That's why most of this community struggles to do R1 content. They go with feels or "cool factor" instead of actual number crunching.

Play however you want. But if you want advice from someone whose crunched the numbers and actually played bow builds in all endgame R10 quests and most R10 raids, follow the build I posted.
 

Oliphant

Well-known member
But if you want advice from someone whose crunched the numbers and actually played bow builds in all endgame R10 quests and most R10 raids, follow the build I posted.
Great builds! Curious if your most recent build with the 1 paladin level and more imbue dice is dramatically better than your older builds with 2 Warlock. I'm leaning towards trying something new but also finding that threat reduction has been the limiting factor of a lot of groups I run with lately. There's kind of an aggro-holding tank shortage on Orien. The Warlock angle provides access to more threat reduction and it might be better for me to be slightly better with debuffs, less threatening and maybe even a tad weaker on DPS. The context is the older Warlock and Barbarian variants were very well put together even if they're not the max DPS anymore.
 

Marshal_Lannes

Well-known member
Yeah, doing Max DPS is bad. That's why most of this community struggles to do R1 content. They go with feels or "cool factor" instead of actual number crunching.

Play however you want. But if you want advice from someone whose crunched the numbers and actually played bow builds in all endgame R10 quests and most R10 raids, follow the build I posted.
R10 legendary quests are the normal reaper XP difficulty level. I do just fine in them. I don't think much of the community struggles on R1s now. I'd also make the argument that your focus solely on DPS is not an ideal path for players to follow since it hinders the character in other ways, specifically in party utility and survivability. Max DPS is great for you in idealized groups with other 156 reaper point professional players. There is no one-size-fits-all all.
 

Oliphant

Well-known member
I feel like I've done 1000s of hours of ranged dps at cap and in R10s it really helps survivability if you can delete any mobs you aggro in short order.
 

Marshal_Lannes

Well-known member
I feel like I've done 1000s of hours of ranged dps at cap and in R10s it really helps survivability if you can delete any mobs you aggro in short order.

I have played 1000s of hours on ranged DPS Analysis of the Elven Ranger and DPS is only one factor of the class. Another imperative tactic for the situation you describe is Pin. Yet another is Misty Step. Yet another is targeting mobs that aren't even going for you but being aware of where your healer is and protecting them. I could go on.

There are other vital parts of a build more important than DPS such as having 2000 HPs. 2000 HPs for high Reaper is a major benchmark. Without the 2000 HPs, you will perform far worse than an archer that has 2000 HPs. Getting 2000 HPs is more important than any DPS metric you hit. Then there is overkill. If we want to talk about math let's talk about variance in kill shots because dead is dead. I'm not seeing mobs survive Sniper Shot/Hunt's End when not using Chaosbow other than Doom Reapers. Let's see the math how many more kill shots Chaosbow achieves than Dinobow. Is it one a quest? Two?

Objectively, people should play what they want to play. But I feel absolutism does great harm to general players who have a propensity to copy builds off forums and repeat talking points they hear about weapons/feat choices/whatever. The only way you'll ever know is by playing it yourself and seeing what the benefits and trade-offs are for the build and gearing choices you make.
 

Oliphant

Well-known member
The reason one might use certain builds from the forums is calculating dps is brutal and it makes a massive difference. If I were uninterested in that I would not have already read through your thread. I thought you were saying Dino is better, what's the difference when you do it?
 

Fisto Mk I

Well-known member
We're comparing Vuln to Vuln for simplicity's sake. If you want to use Ooze, then you're doing less damage.

Correct for solo, partially correct/usual incorrect with group (group depends), clearly incorrect even for PUG raid group. If any other group member have Vuln, you provide more damage with Ooze, not less.

Proc damage is trivial.

Obviously. Chaosbow provide 6d6 and neg lvl to any lawful toon, Dino - 15d6. Dino win. 8)

The acid dot damage already applies with the Chaosbow setup.

Sure, but... 1st, here same situation as with Vuln - if any party member have it too, only one effect apply. 2nd, if you have acid dot effect at weapon, you can change Bound Ring of Acid to any other Bound Ring and provide more damage output again...

Other hand, i already have Chaosbow and don't have Dino... so Chaosbow actully much much better for me! 🤣
 

Oliphant

Well-known member
Yeah I guess if I had a Dino all decked out and an empty Chaos I might just save on USD and go with Dino, but I have Chaos decked out so Chaos :cool:
 

Striga

Well-known member
With the OP's discussion completely derailed, we're now obviously in the phase where everyone adds random facts about bows. Here are two tidbits from me:
  1. I am a fan of the Ember Longbow, and when I stumble upon a throwing weapon, I trash the bow and hotbar the thrower for the rare occasion I need a ranged attack.
  2. You can't lick your elbow.
 
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