I agree with you on this to a point, although a lot of end-game players enjoy the gratification of pushing, for the players that aren't quite there but are also not casuals there has to be some risk vs reward otherwise, why run it at all. The original ideation was reaper points and r/gear, but with a lot of players having quite a number of RP, that incentive will be difficult to adjust for.
Please add R11
- Thread starter mikarddo
- Start date
I understand the desire to add R11 and take on a new challenge, but I don’t think that represents the majority of all players.
If cards could only drop from R10 of the 4 Challenge Quests, I think many players would be dissatisfied.
I would also be dissatisfied with the R11 you are proposing.
If the rewards were completely meaningless unless you played at R11 or higher, would you be satisfied with that?
New things do not have to apply to a majority so that is not important. Raids are likely not done by a majority either not is casual difficulty. Yer they exist.
I would not mind at all if the new rewards only apply in R11+.
Willsave20
Indie Game Developer
Instead of adding R11, they should just make R7-10 more interesting. Add the shield bearers, life callers, and wound menders introduced in the challenge quests from U63 as champions or as an add-on ability to Doom/Despair/Vengeance reapers.
Jack Jarvis Esquire
Well-known member
Why should there be any new rewards though, beyond the natural existing R progression?
The current reward tiers are enough for those folks who do so to run R10s and they are fairly marginal, and even then, some would argue that was a mistake as reaper trees help trivialise the difficulty, hence raising the problem of making the game too easy.
I don't think you'd need to incentivise those running on R10 already to run R11+ with added exclusive goodies.
All the additional exclusive rewards would do is to pressure the non R10 crowd into running R11+ and that's not a positive experience for them, or they'd be running R10s already. And it's more power creep too, which is the antitheses of more challenge.
It just seems a bit fallacious that we're looking for more challenge in the game but also want resulting stuff that will then make the game easier. I don't get it.
Musing on this, and I might be like a turkey voting for Christmas here on my reaper capped toons, but maybe instead we should just bin the entire reaper tree benefits?
That would make the game harder in absolute terms, but keep relative reaper difficulty scaling, with the only reward as a slightly better loot drop chance.
It would also help with catch up mechanics in reaper as there wouldn't be anything for folks to have to catch up on.
MaeveTuohy
Well-known member
We have all seen requests like this a number of times over the years. I can think particularly of one that got quite lengthy by Air Maiden (or Fire Goddess?), a player who was one of the early ones to 147 points. They wanted more challenge but also wanted non-cosmetic rewards for it. They didn't want imposed challenges (running naked, for example) but a challenge where they could use the best of everything they had. Which is fine, but they still wanted a power reward.
And there's the problem, because its a short term solution that also exacerbates other problems the game has, such as splitting the small community.
There are a lot of solid ideas in the thread about upping the difficulty of the existing reaper levels. To those I would add that all resurrection is suppressed in the highest difficulty (until the quest is completed). It's something ought always to been part of R10. You die, you are a stone until the boss is down.
But no new rewards.
And there's the problem, because its a short term solution that also exacerbates other problems the game has, such as splitting the small community.
There are a lot of solid ideas in the thread about upping the difficulty of the existing reaper levels. To those I would add that all resurrection is suppressed in the highest difficulty (until the quest is completed). It's something ought always to been part of R10. You die, you are a stone until the boss is down.
But no new rewards.
A very relevant question indeed and a most welcome debate - thank you.
I am basing my point of view on my experience with the 4 extreme challenge quests. I have done them on R10 but only a few times. Those add a good deal of extra challenge without any extra reward - and from what I am seeing not many people are running them on R10 for that exact reason.
I am sure some groups do run them on R10 very regularly - but as far as I can tell the number of people doing so is low enough to not consider on a broader scale.
Hence I dont see R11 with just the regular rewards but much higher difficulty as becoming popular enough. Obviously, others are free to disagree.
But let me ask you - do you run the 4 challenge quests on R10 very regularly?
Further, the reward proposed is hardly ground breaking. You will get one extra mythic bonus item every 100 quests. While cool it is not alot unless you run many, many quests every week. And those that do so already farm mythic + reaper items so the extra bonus for them is cool without break completely overpowered. Infact, I think the second tier R10 players will gain relatively more from the reward system than the first tier.
But obviously you are correct that the reward may not be needed at all - I just happen to believe it is based on prior experience.
Buddha5440
"There are some who call me...Tim"
You NAILED IT!
Jack Jarvis Esquire
Well-known member
To answer your question, no, I don't tend to run those quests much at all these days on any diff, but over the piece I have run them at everything from R1 to R10 depending on what the group wanted, and before the server migrations I was part of a regular pug (not an oxymoron, there were a few of us "core" regulars, and others would join randomly/infrequently), and we ran those quests regularly on R10 probably 3+ times a week typically for the fun of it as it was something different and interesting. I don't think we were particularly special or alone in that at the time, but eventually the novelty wears off I guess, as mostly now if I do see them up for a PUG it'll generally be for R1 card hunting, though I'm sure those cheerful funny cheeky generous gits are still rocking them at R10 when the mood takes their fancy - anyway, whilst happy to share that, I'm not sure what that perspective signifies in terms of a template for R11+ popularity/incentivisation. The first quest and to a lesser extent the sneaky one of those were pretty challenging, but the other two weren't that tough. They all got run just the same though.
Funnily enough I remember running with the same crew and R10 Ravenloft was tougher, at least relative to the power we had back then. I was learning the R10 ropes and tbh really being carried for a good while until I did, but that's when I recall the game being toughest.
If folks want extra challenge they'll run it for that, I'd reckon, without needing anything exclusive, I would for the helluvit and am pretty sure my guildies would too (I'm absolutely certain the old crew would!) but that's just me. YMMV and all that.
Jack Jarvis Esquire
Well-known member
Buddha5440
"There are some who call me...Tim"
Agreed.
If you want tough, ask them to put in puzzles that aren't instantly solved on the wiki and optionals that give rewards better than the ordinary run.
I firmly believe that a LOT of items should be locked into optionals.
Buddha5440
"There are some who call me...Tim"
Is that you or the whiskey talking? Some say we are all Chaotic Neutral but I think many are Lawful Evil.Lawful evil. I like it!
All humans are selfish. There is no such thing as Altruism. Nobody does something good if it (only) harms them. People do good things because they benefit in some way. Even if it is as simple as doing something to help someone makes you feel better.
somenewnoob
Well-known member
I have to say, I absolutely LOVE that quest. Really liked the mechanics of it, oh damn, they got heals! Kill the healer!! It was a nice change of pace requiring some strategy and coordination.
That was such a great example of added difficulty, without it being "it haz moar hp and hitz harder".
To some extent reapers and champs are that as well. So I like the idea of reapers having those add ons. Here's a doom, it spawns a shield bearer, wound mender and life caller periodically, etc.
Phaedra
Well-known member
If R10 is too easy, congratulations, you beat DDO.
Catering to the .1% of players who want this sort of thing is always a losing game, because you will never be able to make content/challenges fast enough to keep them satisfied.
You can't even gather majority support on the forums, where people are decidedly more dedicated than the average player.
I am quite sure a good deal more than .1% of the player measured in time and money find R10 too easy.
Primus
Well-known member
That is the direction things should go.
Infact forget creating R11, this is what R10 should look like after a revamp.
Those newish mechanics can absolutely be the foundation that end game challenge is built upon.
I don’t think any new Reaper tier should be built around stacking even more player power. Reaper was originally designed as a challenge mode, not a “how many buffs can I stack before the loading screen finishes” mode. If we’re talking about R11 or anything beyond R10, the first step should be removing advantages, not adding more numbers.
Honestly, if we really want a difficulty tier that tests player skill instead of power creep, then go all the way with it: No guild buffs, no ship buffs, no reaper bonuses… and hey, have everyone wear the Rose Colored Glasses. If we’re going to suffer, let’s suffer properly — scaled down to level 10, squinting through pink lenses, wondering why the kobold champ in front of us suddenly feels like a raid boss who skipped breakfast.
And if the mode is meant to be pure challenge, then keep it pure: No rewards. Finishing the run is the reward. If the point is bragging rights, let it be bragging rights — not another currency grind - lean into the philosophy Reaper started with: less player power, more gameplay difficulty. Otherwise we’re just inflating numbers until the engine starts smoking.
Honestly, if we really want a difficulty tier that tests player skill instead of power creep, then go all the way with it: No guild buffs, no ship buffs, no reaper bonuses… and hey, have everyone wear the Rose Colored Glasses. If we’re going to suffer, let’s suffer properly — scaled down to level 10, squinting through pink lenses, wondering why the kobold champ in front of us suddenly feels like a raid boss who skipped breakfast.
And if the mode is meant to be pure challenge, then keep it pure: No rewards. Finishing the run is the reward. If the point is bragging rights, let it be bragging rights — not another currency grind - lean into the philosophy Reaper started with: less player power, more gameplay difficulty. Otherwise we’re just inflating numbers until the engine starts smoking.
If you think anything on the forum is about gaining a majority support for specifics I have to laugh. It is very expected to see people disagreeing often in very different directions and from very different motivations.
Its more about having a good debate and maybe just maybe (very naive, I know) a Dev happens to catch an idea from it.
I for one am enjoying the debate we are having - good points being made and different views aired without much if any mudslinging. I call that a huge success.