Please no "silver bullets" in DDO

calouscaine

Grouchy Vet
Personally I feel the biggest issues with immunity stripping are
  • How it's applied; druid, sorc and alchemist all do it passively with any spell of their element, this is uninteractive beyond "don't hit them with dragonbreath first"
  • Who gets it; druid, sorc and alchemist pretty much have the stronger bonuses and stronger spell selections already on top of immunity stripping, arti pretty much is the weakest caster to get stripping and they also aren't as braindead in application.
  • Overall elemental balance; light, sonic and force spells lack good endgame nuking options in comparison to other elements and options they do have are often undertuned - this is understandable as these elements are extremely rarely resisted... except yknow not really a valid balance point with ubiquitous immunity stripping.
  • Who doesn't get it; warlocks are in a bad place unless they can rely on someone else to strip immunities, if a druid couldn't strip immunities they've got another elemental form they could use, the entire rest of their spellbook they could use, a sorc can always respec and perform at like 80-90% of their power granted they have the gear. A warlock can't feat swap their pact and not using your pact means losing around 60-70% of your damage for blasting alone and for fvs and cleric your light spells are typically half or less than the damage of your fire spells.
  • Why only casters?; immunity stripping being solely in the domain of those who focus on the corresponding elements is honestly a bit odd, in fact it cements the casters who lack it as inferior. Why not implement some manner of stripping as a utility effect? For instance Henshin Mystic's line of elemental vulnerability debuffs could be a fitting place to give a noncaster stripping as utility? Honestly it'd be healthier for class balance than the current state of "oh you're a fire warlock/cleric/fvs sorry but all the sorcs, druids and alchs are cold because of frozen wanderer and reflection of wave"
Bit of a tangent, why does Elemental Form Speciality even exist?
Why are druids and sorcs you can monoelement totally fine given a feat to let them use off elements a little better?
I kind of understand the intent but honestly the fact that two classes who could never conceivably need it have such a feat while warlocks, wizards, clerics and fvs are in their current state with no way to get around immunities besides giving up the majority of their damage is kind of another layer of inferiority by design.
I might be wrong, but I recall the warlock being super op when it came out, to the point some one did a video of running a full plate warlock nuking r10 stuff which caused a massive nerf to the class as a whole.
 

Lotoc

Well-known member
To me they either should re-work the system or make immunity stripping available in Draconic. It is really dumb right now to me that they have this half baked thing where they pick and choose which caster classes are "winners" and "losers".

The other thing is if they just take out immunity stripping, all it does is move the meta to Acid/Light/Sonic, so all Druid's are blightcasters etc... Anyone who actually plays casters very quickly realizes fire/cold/negative have far more issues than Acid/Sonic/Light/Force with electric somewhere in the middle. So basically every Alchemist/Druid would run Acid without immunity bypass.
The issue sonic/light/force have is they just lack competitive spells and epic strikes entirely.
And "just give draconic stripping" makes that issue worse.
 

Lotoc

Well-known member
I might be wrong, but I recall the warlock being super op when it came out, to the point some one did a video of running a full plate warlock nuking r10 stuff which caused a massive nerf to the class as a whole.
That was likely release ES warlock, spellpower ratios on it got tuned way down (150 on aura/bursts to 100) and burst and blast went from 2d6 to 1d6 and 10d6 to 4d6 light damage respectively.
On top of that a large part of the warlock nerfs was lowering blast dice you got relative to pact dice which skewed the damage profile more toward your pact element.
Basically warlock used to be able to attain like an 70/30 split of light+evil/pact damage
 
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Scrag

Well-known member
I feel the discussion about silver bullets largely targets people with lots of past lives that can maximize these sort of things.

For new-ish players who dont have a dozen bank toons with every anything under the sun, and few, if any past lives, this can be a live saver. They aren't packing massive sp, they arent packing massive melee/ranged power, they arent packing mrr and prr. Any advantage they can get out of enhancements is their only big win.

How do I know this? Because I am in that category. My first 32, with only 2 past lives fits into this category. I struggle to get gear and because I dont have set bonuses or specifically targeted gear and rerolls are stupid expensive, whatever I get is what I slot. Some things I got lucky with, some things I got REALLY lucky with by having a team of friends help me farm a specific item and then share it to me if they got it and I didn't. This would take 4,5, or even up to 8 runs of a quest hoping for the best.

For sure, in a lot of adventure packs, I simply cant get through them on EE, where the best non-reaper chance for gear sits. Running it at a lower level risks burning chest pulls by creeping ransack. Waiting to see if some friends pop on that have time to help me go for a piece/pieces of gear may take days.

Silver bullet? Yes please. It lets me be useful in teams.

It is tiresome semi-piking or getting rez'd 3,4, 5 times in a quest due to being melee with negligible MRR and only slightly reasonable PRR (150-165 PRR/9 MRR). If I could self farm, I would. I just have none of the lives or existing gear to do it without splatting all the time, even with a 30 healbot that just rolls over dead at the slightest agro.
 

calouscaine

Grouchy Vet
I feel the discussion about silver bullets largely targets people with lots of past lives that can maximize these sort of things.

For new-ish players who dont have a dozen bank toons with every anything under the sun, and few, if any past lives, this can be a live saver. They aren't packing massive sp, they arent packing massive melee/ranged power, they arent packing mrr and prr. Any advantage they can get out of enhancements is their only big win.

How do I know this? Because I am in that category. My first 32, with only 2 past lives fits into this category. I struggle to get gear and because I dont have set bonuses or specifically targeted gear and rerolls are stupid expensive, whatever I get is what I slot. Some things I got lucky with, some things I got REALLY lucky with by having a team of friends help me farm a specific item and then share it to me if they got it and I didn't. This would take 4,5, or even up to 8 runs of a quest hoping for the best.

For sure, in a lot of adventure packs, I simply cant get through them on EE, where the best non-reaper chance for gear sits. Running it at a lower level risks burning chest pulls by creeping ransack. Waiting to see if some friends pop on that have time to help me go for a piece/pieces of gear may take days.

Silver bullet? Yes please. It lets me be useful in teams.

It is tiresome semi-piking or getting rez'd 3,4, 5 times in a quest due to being melee with negligible MRR and only slightly reasonable PRR (150-165 PRR/9 MRR). If I could self farm, I would. I just have none of the lives or existing gear to do it without splatting all the time, even with a 30 healbot that just rolls over dead at the slightest agro.
If you're on cannith and want to farm gear I will be more than happy to help you. Gear makes a huge difference on a first life character.
That said, the re-roll cost (considered by all accounts should fall under gambling laws or gotchapon laws), is absurd.
Ddo points per dollar at the lowest buy in : 75
10 Astral Shards 75 ddo points lowest buy in
so, 10 astral shards equals approximately 1 dollar
in high end quests, the reroll is 15 shards or higher, pretty sure I’ve come across 18 shard cost once, will have to verify some time.
So, every time you reroll a chest to hopefully get better loot it costs about a $1.50
So, now we know where the real money maker is. Force horrid drop rates with loot boosts that don't actually boost chances at named loot and bank on gambling addiction psychology to keep people paying.
By the way, this is illegal in the eu, which is probably why there isn't an actual eu server, not because of player count.

So, every time you reroll or look at that shard exchange, consider how much that is actually costing and what people are charging. Especially with those low end non-rare filigrees.

There is one caveat though,
Pirate Treasure Map
Located in three barrel as a dungeon drop can raise loot level, and cost nothing if you're willing to farm for it.
 
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Br4d

Well-known member
Simple solution: on Casual and Normal difficulty immunity stripping functions like it does now. On Hard it functions at 50% (immunes get 50% damage reduction.) On Elite it functions at 25% (immunes get 75% damage reduction.) On Reaper it goes up 5% per Reaper level and at R5+ immunity stripping becomes non-functional.
 

The Narc

Well-known member
Simple solution: on Casual and Normal difficulty immunity stripping functions like it does now. On Hard it functions at 50% (immunes get 50% damage reduction.) On Elite it functions at 25% (immunes get 75% damage reduction.) On Reaper it goes up 5% per Reaper level and at R5+ immunity stripping becomes non-functional.
This is an amzing idea!!
 

calouscaine

Grouchy Vet
The amazing idea of stripping players of hard earned abilities is a poor choice for game balance at more difficult levels. That is the lazy designers choice for balancing out harder mobs, just like buffing mobs with erroneous resistances and abilities which do not match either the race or class of the creatures.
In this case the simplest solution of screw the player character is the wrong choice. The goal is to make things more difficult via intelligent and cooperative ai as opposed to smashing things with a hammer. Clerics heal and buff their companions, wizards buff and attack, fighters charge forth and try to agro you, archers ping away from the back, rogue try to back stab you. This sort of ai was done via a random mod maker on never winter nights, an old school game using the aura engine, and would desiccate players if they couldn't think on what to do first or what to take out first.
It's not a difficult concept to get npc's to work in concert together, it can be done where current npc's would make even r10 runners look like noobs in a dungeon if the ai were configured correctly. The game has all of the spells, buffs, and debuffs in it already, make the ai smarter and not some circle running igits around players and hirelings.
 

Phoenicis

Savage's Husband
The amazing idea of stripping players of hard earned abilities is a poor choice for game balance at more difficult levels. That is the lazy designers choice for balancing out harder mobs, just like buffing mobs with erroneous resistances and abilities which do not match either the race or class of the creatures.
In this case the simplest solution of screw the player character is the wrong choice. The goal is to make things more difficult via intelligent and cooperative ai as opposed to smashing things with a hammer. Clerics heal and buff their companions, wizards buff and attack, fighters charge forth and try to agro you, archers ping away from the back, rogue try to back stab you. This sort of ai was done via a random mod maker on never winter nights, an old school game using the aura engine, and would desiccate players if they couldn't think on what to do first or what to take out first.
It's not a difficult concept to get npc's to work in concert together, it can be done where current npc's would make even r10 runners look like noobs in a dungeon if the ai were configured correctly. The game has all of the spells, buffs, and debuffs in it already, make the ai smarter and not some circle running igits around players and hirelings.
Do you REALLY want to play against an AI that makes no errors and reacts faster than it is possible for you to act? AND has access to everything you do?

Some people might, I'll grant that. I play games to relax, if I'm stressing out every second of every session because the mobs are as good or better than I am, and there are more of them, and they have unlimited resources (ever see a mob run out of SP or arrows?) I'll find another game.
 

calouscaine

Grouchy Vet
Do you REALLY want to play against an AI that makes no errors and reacts faster than it is possible for you to act? AND has access to everything you do?

Some people might, I'll grant that. I play games to relax, if I'm stressing out every second of every session because the mobs are as good or better than I am, and there are more of them, and they have unlimited resources (ever see a mob run out of SP or arrows?) I'll find another game.
I played against the ai I described on the game world I built in nwn. It wasn't stressful, and tactics were more advanced than what we see on ddo. . .well, anything would be more advanced really, but it was also predictable. Planning to take out the clerics and mages first was usually key.
That aside, I have been wondering about the whole sp thing, mobs/bosses, etc should have a limited amount of sp just like players, if that's not the case then that is a pretty serious issue that needs to be fixed by the devs. The arrows, well, can't say anything there, you can have unlimited arrows using one or two spells on a character, and anyone can get it.
Mind, with the ai, I am speaking of basic general functions, not some thinking ai that is being made by google or fb or what not, I am speaking about a basic algorithm code of 'if this, then that'. If players are spotted, begin buffing warriors and rogues, begin attacking if melee or ranged, target the person with the highest hate first (this should be who ever is the tank) not whoever is in the back or ranged.
This is one way to increase difficulty with out buffing mobs with nonsense, or debuffing players because designers can't think of another way to get around a players defenses. It's not the only way of doing things.
 

Jack Jarvis Esquire

Well-known member
"hard earned" is a bit strong in context imo. 75 reaper fragments to get +2 stats only to have it rendered obsolete by the next loot release is hard earned imo. This doesn't touch really the sides in context (voice of experience! 😭). 👍
 

Br4d

Well-known member
The amazing idea of stripping players of hard earned abilities is a poor choice for game balance at more difficult levels. That is the lazy designers choice for balancing out harder mobs, just like buffing mobs with erroneous resistances and abilities which do not match either the race or class of the creatures.
In this case the simplest solution of screw the player character is the wrong choice. The goal is to make things more difficult via intelligent and cooperative ai as opposed to smashing things with a hammer. Clerics heal and buff their companions, wizards buff and attack, fighters charge forth and try to agro you, archers ping away from the back, rogue try to back stab you. This sort of ai was done via a random mod maker on never winter nights, an old school game using the aura engine, and would desiccate players if they couldn't think on what to do first or what to take out first.
It's not a difficult concept to get npc's to work in concert together, it can be done where current npc's would make even r10 runners look like noobs in a dungeon if the ai were configured correctly. The game has all of the spells, buffs, and debuffs in it already, make the ai smarter and not some circle running igits around players and hirelings.

If you believe that the DDO engine has to capability to do what you suggest I have a bridge to sell you, cheap.

The way to make the game 'performant' is to cut back on the amount of backend processes and client/server communication, not increase it.
 

Oliphant

Well-known member
Silver bullets is what you want, situational advantages for those that use just the right attack or tool for the specific monster or situation. More precisely you want silver bullets and only silver bullets.
 

calouscaine

Grouchy Vet
If you believe that the DDO engine has to capability to do what you suggest I have a bridge to sell you, cheap.

The way to make the game 'performant' is to cut back on the amount of backend processes and client/server communication, not increase it.
Any engine has the capability, it just needs to be updated. Yeah, it's a lot of work, but it can be done by starting from the ground up. It has been done with the creation engine (used for fallout and skyrim), it could be done with the aurora engine, etc. and so on. The only thing holding back a game engine is the work and time needed to update it, and the willingness. I honestly have no idea why some people think that things can't be done when it comes to coding, they can, it just takes effort/time and knowing what you're doing.
 

Lagin

Well-known member
As I mentioned earlier, I know that expressing such ideas may not help me make friends. :geek:

However, I strongly disagree with this attitude. Players have the right to have their own vision for the game they play and to contribute ideas they believe will improve it. This applies even if those ideas make the game more difficult or less convenient for players. I also enjoy playing as a sorcerer class, which is more convenient and easier to play with a "silver bullet," but it just doesn't feel right to me.

Additionally, it seems like you are contradicting your own rule here. You have a "vision" that the current status quo is acceptable because you like having these "silver bullets." While this opinion is understandable, I believe that no one should have such advantages, and I have the same right as you to have a different opinion. If the developers were to agree with my opinion and make changes to the game, I believe it would become better.

In my view, a game should be challenging enough to be fun. However, if you increase the difficulty, it should only be done if it enhances the quality of the game. I believe this is one such case.

As a player, it is natural to come up with ideas that make the game less difficult and more convenient. However, I don't want to miss the opportunity to provide an idea that can make DDO more difficult while simultaneously improving it (in my humble opinion) when I have such an idea.

Regarding your argument that if I don't like it, I should simply choose not to use it while allowing others to use it if they want to, I believe it is flawed. It's similar to when a player reports a bug that gives an advantage, and other players who exploit the bug tell you not to use it if you don't like it and suggest not playing with those who do and not reporting that bug.

I think this "silver bullet" makes the game worse and too easy for everyone who makes use of it, just for example as it would if item duplication were possible. This issue should be addressed and fixed. However, I understand that this is only my opinion, and no one is obligated to agree with it, even though I consider it to be well-founded.
No worries Chacka ddo, all us old forumites still luv ya. :cool:
 

Br4d

Well-known member
Any engine has the capability, it just needs to be updated. Yeah, it's a lot of work, but it can be done by starting from the ground up. It has been done with the creation engine (used for fallout and skyrim), it could be done with the aurora engine, etc. and so on. The only thing holding back a game engine is the work and time needed to update it, and the willingness. I honestly have no idea why some people think that things can't be done when it comes to coding, they can, it just takes effort/time and knowing what you're doing.

That requires a budget for engine development. SSG is not in that business right now. They're a content developer.

Not 100% sure but I think they probably outsourced the 64 bit upgrade.
 

Chacka

Well-known member
Silver bullets is what you want, situational advantages for those that use just the right attack or tool for the specific monster or situation. More precisely you want silver bullets and only silver bullets.
From what I understand, a "silver bullet" typically refers to a solution that can effectively address or resolve various problems. For instance, in the context of Dungeons & Dragons, a fire sorcerer possesses the spell Fireball, which generally deals normal damage to certain types of monsters, exceptionally high damage to others (like mummies), no damage at all to some (such as fire elementals), and even heals certain creatures (like Iron Golems) instead of harming them.

However, in the game DDO, if you play as a fire sorcerer with the level 20 capstone ability from the fire servant tree, your Fireball spell becomes effective against ALL such monsters. This means you have a single solution for every problem, which some people might refer to as a "silver bullet."

Moreover, this particular solution is extraordinarily potent because the fire damage from a fire servant sorcerer is exceptionally high, and this exceptional damage applies to all monsters. Just to emphasize this point clearly.


Therefore, honestly, I have no idea what you mean.
 

Zuldar

Well-known member
However, in the game DDO, if you play as a fire sorcerer with the level 20 capstone ability from the fire servant tree, your Fireball spell becomes effective against ALL such monsters. This means you have a single solution for every problem, which some people might refer to as a "silver bullet."
If they did remove immunity stripping what's your proposed solution to deal with the rather large imbalance in elemental effectiveness? Simply removing immunity stripping would be the equivalent of just stripping builds or even entire classes from the game, so you would also need some way to deal with that as well.
 

Thal

New member
It'd have to be part of a massive commitment by the Devs to realign design goals and balance-theory in general.

Sorcerers would need their entire ENH tree concepts redone, as forcing Fire Sorcs to only use Fire but being unable to feasibly damage Demons, Devils, Fernian baddies, half of the golems in the game and some more would be unacceptable in an era when you need to be able to solo from 1-30 when the servers are quiet.

Alchemists as well, as their Bombardier tree only permits the use of one type of element, and you are so limited by available spells that actually do damage it's a miracle any Alch makes it to 12 these days with how most people play them.

Druids getting so many free add-on effects to their spells, which already have some of the best built-in effects and damages is crazy, especially considering the inherent discrepancy between Ice (good) vs Fire (bad). Sleet Storm slow, Ice Storm slow, Mantle of the Icy Soul slow; all of these are guaranteed, no save effects that turn mob movement down to 90% (and that's before Salt slow which everyone has these days). Throw in Ice having unique filigrees that give it uncontested top dog nuking damage and we are back to the old Fire Tiefling with Empyrean Flame and that one Ravenloft stick that you could reset the elemental rotation on to always get Fire when needed.

This all aside, Tiefling remains the only racial option for Fire Casters outside of ENH Capstone, but everyone else just has to hope they don't come across XYZ type enemies if they're not on one of the Immunity Stripper type casters.
Oh sorry, is that an ice themed adventure pack as a Carceri Pact Warlock? Hah, haha.

I support casters being given less 1-trick-pony types of playstyles, but the Devs would need to:
1. Add dual element support onto all relevant Spellpower items in the game
2. Buff all spells to have viable scaling damage to caster levels 20+
3. Rebalance ENH trees to offer synergistic multi-element features
4. Rebalance Epic Destinies to be competitive with Draconic
5. Commit to not releasing flavor of the year OP new stuff that overshadows everything before it (lol, lmao even)
 
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