Please Remove ICD on Dark Imbuement

Rub-A-Dub-Dub

Well-known member
vulnerability (and helpless) scales untyped damage
And they scale adrenaline. Further more helpless is now gone for bosses once lamania patch hits live. So the only thing that scales DI is way, way smaller than your *****. Which makes DI only suitable for rogues, dark hunters, and people very bad at math. Have fun trying to slot 1k force spellpower and 40 dice on every melee build. bye, felicia
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
And they scale adrenaline. Further more helpless is now gone for bosses once lamania patch hits live. So the only thing that scales DI is way, way smaller than your *****. Which makes DI only suitable for rogues, dark hunters, and people very bad at math. Have fun trying to slot 1k force spellpower and 40 dice on every melee build. bye, felicia
You would look less foolish if you actually understood the math you posted instead of trying to make fun someone who actually does.

The vulnerability point is relevant because the adrenaline build cant use it to make up the dps difference as teth suggested. Sorry that went over your head...

And for the record, both of our math was wrong. I forgot to include the additional sneak attack boosed by adrenaline, whereas teth forgot to subtract the average hit damage from the adrenaline number. Coincidentally, both those errors gave roughly the same end result.

I also don't understand what point you are trying to make besides trolling, this is a thread about a hypothetical buff.
 

Rub-A-Dub-Dub

Well-known member
You would look less foolish if you actually understood the math
you already proved yourself wrong. You have demonstrably shown that you are tiers below in comprehension, building, and play skill. this is not trolling, it just talking to a wall that happens to be incorrect and keeps doubling, tripling, quadrupling down on being incorrect. There are way more things that scale adrenaline. Teth also didnt scale the sneak damage in his calcs that add their surplus to the front number. If you can list all the PRR debuffs then you can see just how much adrenaline scales over untyped damage. You already exposed yourself as a scrub by saying every melee build will have 1k force and 40 sneak dice. Show me your build give me the planner file so i can eviscerate it and you again, here for everyone to see.

In closing youre a joke who is a bad. have a good one
 
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Twinkle

Member
yeah so this was about throwers but in the end, why is it bad that a build built for SA dice and TWF would be stronger in SD than FOTW? That's thematically correct. And it's VERY hard to run around with 1000SP and 40 SA Dice and not be a gimp somehow or just try harding with a bunch of temp buffs.

TWFs typically wear cloth/light armor and have less PRR and MRR, are not focused on by healers, and sneak attack damage requires a lot of special gear/abilities to be landing consistently (fort bypass, SA immunity removal, dec/imp dec, etc).

Monkey, you're making a lot bad faith arguments about pretty straightforwardly equivalent damage for no discernable reason, and also there's way more to consider than just the straight DPS output (see my examples above). TWFs with SA dice in SD SHOULD do more damage than Barbs and Pallys and Fighters in FOTW, or at least they should be able to min max for that if they choose. They're squishier, and otherwise serve no purpose than to be higher burst DPS than a tank or offtank DPS.

I appreciate all of the thread bumps but seriously, reel it in fella.
 

I dont Like gimps

Well-known member
you already proved yourself wrong. You have demonstrably shown that you are tiers below in comprehension, building, and play skill. this is not trolling, it just talking to a wall that happens to be incorrect and keeps doubling, tripling, quadrupling down on being incorrect. There are way more things that scale adrenaline. Teth also didnt scale the sneak damage in his calcs that add their surplus to the front number. If you can list all the PRR debuffs then you can see just how much adrenaline scales over untyped damage. You already exposed yourself as a scrub by saying every melee build will have 1k force and 40 sneak dice. Show me your build give me the planner file so i can eviscerate it and you again, here for everyone to see.

In closing youre a joke who is a bad. have a good one
bro just stop trying to argue with a dude who has a 105 QP on Monk its pointless
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
you already proved yourself wrong. You have demonstrably shown that you are tiers below in comprehension, building, and play skill. this is not trolling, it just talking to a wall that happens to be incorrect and keeps doubling, tripling, quadrupling down on being incorrect. There are way more things that scale adrenaline. Teth also didnt scale the sneak damage in his calcs that add their surplus to the front number. If you can list all the PRR debuffs then you can see just how much adrenaline scales over untyped damage. You already exposed yourself as a scrub by saying every melee build will have 1k force and 40 sneak dice. Show me your build give me the planner file so i can eviscerate it and you again, here for everyone to see.

In closing youre a joke who is a bad. have a good one
I can tell reading comprehension is not your strong suit, but I'm going to humor you anyway :)

450 melee power is no more realistic than 1k spell power. (I also never claimed 1k spell power for all melee builds, you make that up in your head)

So lets break it down:

72 epic/L power
50 Destiny cores
12 Enhancement
15 artifact
18 str2 raid filigrees
25 dreadbringer
15 prowess
15 Treachery
24 reaper points
4 tome
15 profane
20 vistani
5 assassin
5 scion
50? mythic/reaper bonuses (highly unlikey you can actually get this with how many crafted items are in most endgame sets)
----
345

Doesn't look like 450 melee power does it? Right, because you need temporary and random proc boosts to get there...

50 prowess boost
30 measure the foe
15 vistani swords
10 bloodrage
---
105

Lets do spell power:
153 enhancment
74 insight
25 quality
25 artifact
25 profane
25 artifact universal
15 exceptional
80 spellcraft
50 SD
50 reaper
50 reaper/mythic bonuses (again, unrealistic)
32 implement
25 alchemical
25 alchemical force
72 epic/L power
4 tome
---
730
45 reaper boost
150 wellspring
25 psionic
----
950

And that's before even considering filigrees, heroic enhancements, secondary destinies, turn the tide, etc... and I'm probably forgetting something... so ~1200 would actually be the upper limit with everything... although pushing that high is probably not worth the effort.

But in reality, this rogue is actually going to be ~350 melee power and ~800 spell power the majority of the time, which is an even higher spell power to melee power ratio than 450 to 1k.

But lets math it all out anyway:

10.75 d4+3 +130 = 189 base damage
15-18x4 + 19-20x6 = (19+19)/20 = 1.9x
base average = 189*1.9crits*4.5MP*2DS = 3231 (ignoring seeker here since it doesn't make much difference)
sneak attack = (40*3.5+35)*4.5*1.5*2 = 2362
Total 5593 average swing damage

Adrenaline = 219*6*4.5*2*3.25 = 38434
Adrenaline sneak = 2362*3.25 = 7676
Total dps = (38434+7676-5593) /8 seconds= 5064 dps

Dark Imbuement = 40*3.5*9spell power *3.65 *2.5 * 66% uptime = 7665 dps

51% more dps than adrenaline without even counting shadow loss... So even dust+ooze+shattered device (which is a melee power loss and makes adrenaline dps even lower) doesn't make up the difference.
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
yeah so this was about throwers but in the end, why is it bad that a build built for SA dice and TWF would be stronger in SD than FOTW? That's thematically correct. And it's VERY hard to run around with 1000SP and 40 SA Dice and not be a gimp somehow or just try harding with a bunch of temp buffs.

TWFs typically wear cloth/light armor and have less PRR and MRR, are not focused on by healers, and sneak attack damage requires a lot of special gear/abilities to be landing consistently (fort bypass, SA immunity removal, dec/imp dec, etc).

Monkey, you're making a lot bad faith arguments about pretty straightforwardly equivalent damage for no discernable reason, and also there's way more to consider than just the straight DPS output (see my examples above). TWFs with SA dice in SD SHOULD do more damage than Barbs and Pallys and Fighters in FOTW, or at least they should be able to min max for that if they choose. They're squishier, and otherwise serve no purpose than to be higher burst DPS than a tank or offtank DPS.

I appreciate all of the thread bumps but seriously, reel it in fella.
Sorry for the derail. To the inital point, I agree that removing the ICD would be entirely reasonable for throwers. However I see it as unnecessary power creep for TWFs and possibly repeaters as well (but I haven't done the math on that). I agree it needs to be better, but as long as it has spell power scaling this doesn't seem like the way forward. Reduce the ICD to 0.5 seconds perhaps? If its just for throwers then that would be essentially the same thing as no ICD.

Second, I'm not making bad faith arguments, I'm criticizing the 450MP 700 spell power assumption (which teth already conceded) used to make the damage seem equivalent. Its not. see above post.

Third, I entirely disagree with the idea that SA builds are squishier than fighters or paladins and therefor "should" do more dps. SA builds typically have higher dodge+uncanny making them more survivable than most fighter/paladin builds.
 

Rub-A-Dub-Dub

Well-known member
1k spell power for all melee builds, you make that up in your head)
You can't get that without sacrificing all types of power. You counted prowess as 15 mp. Bro, stop, youre making yourself and your server look like a bunch of bads
And that's before even considering filigrees, heroic enhancements, secondary destinies, turn the tide, etc... and I'm probably forgetting something... so ~1200 would actually be the upper limit with everything... although pushing that high is probably not worth the effort.
Like, I said. Post the build wearing all that gear with all those bonuses, with all those sets, so I can easily keep picking you apart here and your trash theory build. Complete joke and no one should ever take you seriously. Youre what happens when all the good players leave your server and leave you to rot among other bads.

You think slotting all the prr debuffs is a loss yet youre slotting every magic power set and augment set lmao. I dont have to slot every single prr debuff, I can have debuffer in the raid. You must try to slot as much force as possible. Youre taking wellspring lol. No wonder you cant do **** but talk
 

Rub-A-Dub-Dub

Well-known member
bro just stop trying to argue with a dude who has a 105 QP on Monk its pointless
IK i just cant help myself. he has said all type of trash crap in the past. one of them was builds only do 15k dps without debuffs. That was when i first flagged him as a bad. this thread just exposed him and all his friends
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
You can't get that without sacrificing all types of power. You counted prowess as 15 mp. Bro, stop, youre making yourself and your server look like a bunch of bads
Reading comprehension my dude. Prowess does grant 15 mp. It also gives 50 on boosts, which I included if you could read. :)
Like, I said. Post the build wearing all that gear with all those bonuses, with all those sets, so I can easily keep picking you apart here and your trash theory build. Complete joke and no one should ever take you seriously. Youre what happens when all the good players leave your server and leave you to rot among other bads.
The only thing I included there that might not be possible and/or require too much sacrifice is the 25 artifact force. (feel free to adjust down if you like, It doesn't change the conclusion) Everything else is basic sora kell+dread and pots, but you didn't read it did you?
You think slotting all the prr debuffs is a loss yet youre slotting every magic power set and augment set lmao. I dont have to slot every single prr debuff, I can have debuffer in the raid. You must try to slot as much force as possible. Youre taking wellspring lol. No wonder you cant do **** but talk
Thank you for confirming my point that adrenaline would need debuffers to catch up. Again, I don't know what you are arguing. Why wouldn't you take wellspring on a spell power scaling build? Need that 10 prr feat instead to stay alive?
 

Rub-A-Dub-Dub

Well-known member
Reading comprehension my dude
Wish you were at least good at this one thing, but it's as bad as your math and ddo skills.

Since were are not listing a build and simply pasting every source of spellpower ( because youre rather dim ), here is a list of all prr debuffs.

shadow dancer 14 prr
warlock 30 prr
shattered 10 prr
ooze 10 prr
melt armor spell 4 prr
caustic overload 5 prr
dust 35 prr

Factor those in
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
Wish you were at least good at this one thing, but it's as bad as your math and ddo skills.

Since were are not listing a build and simply pasting every source of spellpower ( because youre rather dim ), here is a list of all prr debuffs.
If you could read my post, you'd see that I'm not listing every source of spell power at all (that would be ~1500 and would indeed be a gimped build that's not worth mentioning) I only listed what is easily achievable with sora kell+dread+windlasher+ravens+3xSA augment.... which is pretty standard for impue/spell scaling dps builds now. If you understand endgame gear tetris for dps builds you would know the 3 options: either do the above (or similar) which includes literally every artifact bonus relevant to dps, or you have some m3/r3 gear that allows you to give up an artifact set bonus from the crafted items and come out ahead, or you fit in class specific gear like thorn boots which is not relevant to the rogue build in question.
shadow dancer 14 prr
warlock 30 prr
shattered 10 prr
ooze 10 prr
melt armor spell 4 prr
caustic overload 5 prr
dust 35 prr

Factor those in
Now you are in over your head.

Please calculate how much dps is lost by including a 20 warlock for a measly 20 prr debuff with 40% uptime, compared to a dps build instead.
Same for alchemist for only 9.
Shadowdancer 14 prr debuff? you mean the build with the dark imbuement? lol

edit: you forgot jade strike, mark the prey and ooze flask.... Even I can make a better argument against myself than you can :ROFLMAO:
 
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I dont Like gimps

Well-known member
Wish you were at least good at this one thing, but it's as bad as your math and ddo skills.

Since were are not listing a build and simply pasting every source of spellpower ( because youre rather dim ), here is a list of all prr debuffs.

shadow dancer 14 prr
warlock 30 prr
shattered 10 prr
ooze 10 prr
melt armor spell 4 prr
caustic overload 5 prr
dust 35 prr

Factor those in
maybe im missing something but where is warlock 30 prr? (unless the capstone applies to bosses lol)
 

Rub-A-Dub-Dub

Well-known member
Please calculate how much dps is lost by including a 20 warlock for a measly 20 prr debuff with 40% uptime, compared to a dps build instead.
Less than having to build a spell powered rogue. Build your doookie build. Give me the file. You copy pasted every spell power source and set thinking youre going to gear, ap, and feat your build like that. no wonder youre on thelanis
 
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