POLL: RNG Gambling & Pay2Win ?

[Rage]

Personally, no. At least not yet but I feel like we’re dangerously flirting at the edge.

But, I have not played this game as a fresh newbie in a long , long while nor at the very “cutting edge” of min/maxing. And I think many of us are missing that perspective.

[How I define “Pay To Win”]

It’s not about buying a bunch of Otto’s boxes and maxing out a fresh character. (I mean, why? Just play the game!)

What I mean by Pay 2 Win is being able to attain the top 1% of the power scale with a much greater chance of probability and in a much shorter amount of time by spending real life $.

Whether that looks like buying a whole bunch of sovereign pots to blast through key past lives or being able to reroll as much as you like on chests AND have an army of alts/multi accounts to reroll on those chests as well. All of which costing real life dollars and cannot within a reasonable amount of time be replicated free without the use of real life $.

Being in an elite guild and being able to run much harder content much faster is not considered Pay2Win as this is just part of the game/MMO.

The quick n’ easy way is asking yourself the question: “If I bought something off the store could I get a noticeable increase in power by double or more speed ? (For comparative purposes, include time spent on getting said store products, in-game, if not spending real life $).”

 

[Dragavon]

I do not even understand what you are talking about. Your incoherenet babble/rant is not understandable to me

 

[Darksteel]

I do not even understand what you are talking about. Your incoherenet babble/rant is not understandable to me

Be patient with him, Rage is always raging

 

[The Narc2]

The OP is using the wrong term, the correct term to be using is pay2advance, all the paying just skips inconvenience and speeds up the end process.

The OP’s post touches on many things but definitely the game design and the pay2advance system is currently strongly focused on whales and especially whales that multibox with multiple accounts, this is the sole reason for rare loot mechanics as they are the target audience of the pay2advance design.

 

[Rage]

The OP is using the wrong term, the correct term to be using is pay2advance, all the paying just skips inconvenience and speeds up the end process.

The OP’s post touches on many things but definitely the game design and the pay2advance system is currently strongly focused on whales and especially whales that multibox with multiple accounts, this is the sole reason for rare loot mechanics as they are the target audience of the pay2advance design.

So how big a difference in upper levels of the game is the have and have-not of the rare loot? A 1% difference in power level (barely noticeable) 50%? (Very noticeable jarring and would firmly place it in the Pay2Win or Pay2Advance column).

 

[Pineapple]

Sure, rerolling + ransack mechanics for mythic + reaper bonuses in my mind make it pretty P2W.

Without any real PVP, and no serious competition amongst push raiding/world first r10 raids the question of what you're winning is still up for debate.

I see it as pretty similar to mobile gacha games in that sense where casual players will get one or two of the special SSS ultra rare/light-dark drops, but only the whales will have most of them.

 

[The Narc2]

So how big a difference in upper levels of the game is the have and have-not of the rare loot? A 1% difference in power level (barely noticeable) 50%? (Very noticeable jarring and would firmly place it in the Pay2Win or Pay2Advance column).

When you add in the multiboxng factor and pay2advance farms beyond rares such as collecting stuff to put/find reaper bonuses on gear adding mythic bonuses and then also perfecting card curses, it can make the skill requirements noticably lower and for truly skilled players it can put them right into god mode. But understand that is what they are paying for and that is what is keeping this game afloat, it is also why SSG makes so many other things unfun with nerfs, they want to push you in the direction of spending on the RNG, they want you to be pressured into increasing your odds by multiboxing and they want you to purchase access to new content on all your multibox accounts. The sooner you accept this the sooner you will completely understand the business model of this game.

 

[Tumideon]

I get the gripe with microtransactions for sure, like why do I need AS to get a rogue hireling? Why are Otto Boxes so damned expensive and give you half the XP you'd need to "skip" a life? Things like that.

I don't agree with calling it P2W, because there is no "winning". You don't get immortalized for doing any "world's first" like an eSports League on a Raid, you don't win cash prizes or gain advantage over other players, this isn't AC2 or DAOC where there were not instances of dungeons and there was a PvP/RvR/KvK element either.

Hell, the stuff we can buy doesn't even help us "win". Like I cannot go and buy Raid Gear or Fate Strands in the DDO Store, anything worth having in this game for 98% of it is BTA (or worse, BTC) so I cannot buy that off of the ASAH.

And nothing there you are required to have per se. If anything it's microtransactions (potions, shards for re-rolls) that are mostly engineered purposely in the game play loop because TR'ing and RPs and drops are only incrementally powerful so if you can save a few hours re-running Sagas or hitting chests then fine.

I mean heck, they won't even sell Ransack resets or Sovereign Discovery Pots in the store - guess they don't want us to win that bad

 

[AlimonyJFMSU]

I mean it's not a PVP game, so who cares?

 

[woq]

Yes, winning against the game is much easier and faster if you also fight with your wallet, not just your mechanical prowess and time spent.

If you say you can't buy raid loot, you haven't seen people gifting their friends timers to pull for them and to easy clap raids 8 times in a row instead of spending time waiting for raid lock timers and gathering different groups, potentially having to run lower difficulties like Hard for less and worse loot and making alts to bypass timers to farm more runes and so forth. Spending money gives you a big advantage even outside shard gambling for drops.

But the f2p model allowing ddo point gathering over time, Lamannia (allowing testing other playstyles/characters without a full respec which is really costly in modern DDO - and allowing people to try really hard challenges without paying insane amounts of money or spending inordinate amounts of time getting stuff), free codes, DDO Content Creator program, the introduction of spell point rings (epic/legendary) mostly equalize the p2w aspects to relative irrelevancy over time - and it is up to the player to decide how they want to play the game.

On the other hand, there are no official competitions or anything so it comes down to the goals we set for ourselves and for most of them paying more than what is needed to get the content is not necessary. But paying certainly makes it much easier.

 

[Smokewolf]

Another important term to know here is Engineered inconvenience.

Basic meaning courtesy of Wiki: In video games, "engineered inconvenience" describes intentional design choices that make a game slightly frustrating or slow unless the player pays money to skip the annoyance. Key examples include time-gated energy systems, deliberate inventory limits, and slow progression loops.

 

[Vua]

I mean it's not a PVP game, so who cares?

This is the answer.

 

[cdbd3rd]

As written, "P2W" doesn't apply to DDO. As others are touching on, there IS a definite trend towards more paying to bypass things. That's a choice everyone makes for themselves that has no bearing on how others are playing the game.

It'll urinate me off when some Pay-To-Teleport thing pops up in the store to bypass this whole wavy-wavy/dancy-dancy stuff, but am nonetheless waiting for that day.

 

[Gimp]

So much worry about how other people spend their money.
An usually from people who dont have much money.

And we have pay for teleport already....see Ultimate Expansion packs. Not pay 2 win. But pay for convience.

 

[The Narc2]

As usually computer programming types trying to justify why they are worth so much money and why they should be continued to be overpaid. Fortunately that market recently doesnt need nearly as many employed programmers, especially ones that do their job slowly.

P.S. There are many people that point out pay2advance, it doesnt mean they dont have plenty of money(some people have even been waiting excitedly for inflation so that they can be further elevated above the general commoners wink wink), they just know they dont want to spend it on a video game with zero investment returns. Your attempt to call people that complain about the paying process of this game poor just makes you equally that in personality and honestly your comment suggests you are mid class at best and already knowing you will never climb any higher than that.

 

[OG DM]

I mean it's not a PVP game, so who cares?

People are over the "whether or not its p2w" argument. The issue currently is having to decrease the drop rate for everyone to entice a single digit percentage minority to pay more into the system to achieve the same result they used to be able to for a fraction of the cost.

When they lower the drop rate on items decreed 'rare" to extreme levels (lower than jibbers blade) to get people to reroll RNG more times, this is now the drop rate for every single player.

Anyone who would farm the normal drop rate but not pay for rerolls, as well as even the people paying for rerolls on the normal drop rate, but think it's unreasonable to lower the drop rate to abyssal (pun absolutely intended) levels to make them reroll more often, would care.

The irony is if they did real p2w, such as selling the item straight cash in the store, this would not require having to lower the drop rate for everyone else. It's this disguised p2w loot lottery nonsense system in place which requires hosing everyone else's chances to entice the shard billionaires to reroll more often.

 

[The Narc2]

Its called whale milking and its a legitimate and effective business model and I support it 100%, as long as you avoid(if you end up in one of their groups just leave, let them show off to each other) whale players and guilds and ignore their “I/we are player/guild gods”, you wont notice that their part of the game exists, the only reason you do is because you pay attention to their god rabble instead of just understanding they paid to get it and they are completely insignificant to your gaming enjoyment.

 

[Tumideon]

The irony is if they did real p2w, such as selling the item straight cash in the store, this would not require having to lower the drop rate for everyone else. It's this disguised p2w loot lottery nonsense system in place which requires hosing everyone else's chances to entice the shard billionaires to reroll more often.

That is my biggest issue with it, the p2w semantics are distracting from the fact the Devs and Producers are being leaned on by some stuffed suits to do this sort of thing. I guarantee they have metrics to support it, I'd love to see that, how many rolls per chest they're getting in Myth Drannor or Lamordia versus other content.

That sort of thing hoses all of us because is cascades down, in Mists of Ravenloft we had optional chests that we could go after than would have the full end-chest loot table. Now, only certain side chests may have a very specific item so it's low-key encouraging people to roll multiple chests. Soon enough crafting materials they had every other expansion won't be a guaranteed drop either.

It's all so tiresome. That's the part I dislike. I'd prefer them to make everything a flat 30 at normal (60 on R10) and just let people buy threads of fate for all I care in the DDO Store.

 

[kmoustakas]

Personally, no. At least not yet but I feel like we’re dangerously flirting at the edge.

But, I have not played this game as a fresh newbie in a long , long while nor at the very “cutting edge” of min/maxing. And I think many of us are missing that perspective.

[How I define “Pay To Win”]

It’s not about buying a bunch of Otto’s boxes and maxing out a fresh character. (I mean, why? Just play the game!)

What I mean by Pay 2 Win is being able to attain the top 1% of the power scale with a much greater chance of probability and in a much shorter amount of time by spending real life $.

Whether that looks like buying a whole bunch of sovereign pots to blast through key past lives or being able to reroll as much as you like on chests AND have an army of alts/multi accounts to reroll on those chests as well. All of which costing real life dollars and cannot within a reasonable amount of time be replicated free without the use of real life $.

Being in an elite guild and being able to run much harder content much faster is not considered Pay2Win as this is just part of the game/MMO.

The quick n’ easy way is asking yourself the question: “If I bought something off the store could I get a noticeable increase in power by double or more speed ? (For comparative purposes, include time spent on getting said store products, in-game, if not spending real life $).”

You can't "win" DDO so it doesn't matter.

 

[Shear-buckler]

So much worry about how other people spend their money.
An usually from people who dont have much money.

And we have pay for teleport already....see Ultimate Expansion packs. Not pay 2 win. But pay for convience.

The worry is not about how other people spend their money, but rather how the game design gets warped to take my money.
We got rare loot to sell more chest-rolls.
We got teleport activation timer to sell more cosmetics.

What is next?