Bjond
Well-known member
Yeah. I would not call it "pay to win". It's closer to "heavily taxed".
POLL: RNG Gambling & Pay2Win ?
- Thread starter Rage
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Jack Jarvis Esquire
Well-known member
Nope.
You can't pay to win.
You're just not good enough.
You can't pay to win.
You're just not good enough.
Grimscore_Riffstorm
Shreds Licks Way Beyond His Capabilities
No, DDO is a Pay-for-Content-Ownership AND Free-to-Play model, there is no pay-to-win here. There is nothing that you can pay money for that guarantees any kind of success anywhere.
Lootboxes and gambling? 100% for sure a problem. Probably exponentially worse than gambling because your odds are hidden in the back end of the game and dependent on the mathematics of the development team's not being fraudulent--and you don't have access to it. Case in point: named items not dropping in designated chests and people running the quests not knowing.
Lootboxes and gambling? 100% for sure a problem. Probably exponentially worse than gambling because your odds are hidden in the back end of the game and dependent on the mathematics of the development team's not being fraudulent--and you don't have access to it. Case in point: named items not dropping in designated chests and people running the quests not knowing.
Oliphant
Well-known member
A bunch of rich folks with all the advantages making billions doing squat: we, we, we taking risk. we taking risks!!! worship us! and p.s. that's not p2w, we takin risks
That argument in that context would not fly with me. I add the color because its rich people and their cooked rich people brains in my example.
That argument in that context would not fly with me. I add the color because its rich people and their cooked rich people brains in my example.
Rage
Well-known member
No, they would still need to lower the drop rate. It’s the whole artificial scarcity. The store item has the value that it does because it’s so insanely rare to get out in the wild.
Now if they sold +Reaper or +Mythic you can tag onto items in the DDO store… I would be totally cool with that. It helps out the game and it’s so out there in terms of rarity etc. it’s not even something I can even care about.
Jack Jarvis Esquire
Well-known member
Winning is pretty much an objective concept though. Sport is a fairly definitive example of that. It just doesn't apply very well here. After all, another name for a purely subjective assessment of winning might reasonably be described as delusional.
Oliphant
Well-known member
In sports, the fans pay. In this game we pay.Winning is pretty much an objective concept though. Sport is a fairly definitive example of that. It just doesn't apply very well here. After all, another name for a purely subjective assessment of winning might reasonably be described as delusional.
Jack Jarvis Esquire
Well-known member
Payment in and of itself isn't the issue though.
Jack Jarvis Esquire
Well-known member
By that definition everyone is a winner then, as who has ever failed to achieve any of that? So nobody is a loser. And it can be fairly surmised that with no losers, there are no winners. Not in a meaningful sense at any rate.
The concept of winning naturally involves winners and losers, and competition to be one rather than the other. That just doesn't fit well with a cooperative non PVP environment.
Like most things in life, folks who are without will try to rationalise their lack in some way or other in comparison to those that aren't without. Perfectly natural, even desirable for sanity sake, but not always realistic. I think that's what is happening here to some extent. Equally there may be those who believe spending money will help make them the best and winners. This too is a false premise.
P2W is a lazy term IMO. Pay to enjoy would be a better description, and what is wrong with that?
Oliphant
Well-known member
So what? Put two and two together.
I think there are really three conversations here:
1. Are various astral shard related mechanics (daily dice, chest rerolls) gambling?
Technically probably not, but they're not great. They are predatory mechanics that exploit dopamine cycles. Are they gacha game level bad? Not even close. That said, I also don't think they're actually pay to win- with the exception of some strong results from rolls (which are cheaper to just buy outright most of the time anyway) there isn't a lot on the daily dice to directly make you more powerful and rerolling chests is just getting more shots at the RNG.
2. If you spend money, do you get a better DDO experience beyond just accessing more content?
Absolutely. Tomes are the big one, and boosters are helpful to cut down on grind. That said, do you "win" if you spend money? Not automatically. I think there's a power difference between people who are maximized efficient whales and players who are maximized efficient F2P at any given time, but I don't think it's that big- the difference is how long it takes to get there. There are a handful of items at any given time you can't buy with points, and I wouldn't want to farm points to buy them as F2P, but it's mostly tomes which while powerful are not "win" level of powerful IMO.
3. Does spending money mean you can play the game and have fun while not spending money means you can't?
Yesn't. The free quest roster is a bit thin and I don't think you could meaningfully enjoy DDO for free. But pay to win and pay to play are two different categories just buying access to content, not power boosts, can make DDO a fun game. That's not pay to win, though, since it's about access, not instantly being more powerful.
All that to say, I think DDO is kind of in a weird position as far as MMOs go. I think, on the side of the free player experiences, DDO offers one of maybe the worst experiences in 2026 that you can find. It's introduction is dated and the free player experience has an extremely narrow slice of content and some unnecessary limits on features to push people towards VIP or at least premium account status. DDO's F2P experience is tragically bad, both in terms of content gates and QoL features gated behind premium status, a real legacy of it's early days when F2P MMOs were largely basically just demo versions of "real" MMOs, but with the ability to see everyone else with the cool stuff hidden behind the pay wall flaunting it in front of you.
That said, other than first time purchases content (which is a huge wall at the start of your DDO experience) DDO is actually relatively low "maintenance"- an annual VIP subscription and the standard edition of the yearly expansion will run you about $150, which if DDO is your primary gaming expense is not crazy high compared to something like World of Warcraft or FFXIV which can run that in just the base subscription to say nothing of their in game cash shops or one time purchases for content (and gacha games give that number a run for its money in a single banner). Sure, you can spend more than that if you really want to, but I think you're actually getting decent value for that and if you wait for sales for expansions you don't have you can save even more if you don't care about running the latest expansion.
From there you could spend money on powerups like tomes and boosts like potions, but I don't think it's necessary to play the game or have fun. I've played alts with no tomes and had a decent time of it, and I am far from the best DDO player. While I do have experience and shared storage to help me, I think a new player could enjoy DDO without any of that, especially if they know how to use the wiki. That has a pretty high ceiling but in my opinion it's pretty optional and even if you're interested in that, I'd recommend just waiting for sales unless you absolutely need that tome now for some reason.
So, yeah, I kind of got off topic but I think DDO is more "pay to play the game and then pay a bit more to have a better time while playing it", not really pay to win. There's a pretty big pay wall, which is a problem with DDO's current economy where new players are expected to cough up piles of cash for content that isn't really worth it anymore (or, at least, not looking through the eyes of a new player) or subscribe to VIP, which is a commitment for a 20 year old game. But the actual pay ceiling (outside of Otto's boxes and shards/boxes/pots) is pretty reasonable for an MMO of DDO's quality and scope, and I do legitimately think DDO is a much more interesting game to play than the competition.
1. Are various astral shard related mechanics (daily dice, chest rerolls) gambling?
Technically probably not, but they're not great. They are predatory mechanics that exploit dopamine cycles. Are they gacha game level bad? Not even close. That said, I also don't think they're actually pay to win- with the exception of some strong results from rolls (which are cheaper to just buy outright most of the time anyway) there isn't a lot on the daily dice to directly make you more powerful and rerolling chests is just getting more shots at the RNG.
2. If you spend money, do you get a better DDO experience beyond just accessing more content?
Absolutely. Tomes are the big one, and boosters are helpful to cut down on grind. That said, do you "win" if you spend money? Not automatically. I think there's a power difference between people who are maximized efficient whales and players who are maximized efficient F2P at any given time, but I don't think it's that big- the difference is how long it takes to get there. There are a handful of items at any given time you can't buy with points, and I wouldn't want to farm points to buy them as F2P, but it's mostly tomes which while powerful are not "win" level of powerful IMO.
3. Does spending money mean you can play the game and have fun while not spending money means you can't?
Yesn't. The free quest roster is a bit thin and I don't think you could meaningfully enjoy DDO for free. But pay to win and pay to play are two different categories just buying access to content, not power boosts, can make DDO a fun game. That's not pay to win, though, since it's about access, not instantly being more powerful.
All that to say, I think DDO is kind of in a weird position as far as MMOs go. I think, on the side of the free player experiences, DDO offers one of maybe the worst experiences in 2026 that you can find. It's introduction is dated and the free player experience has an extremely narrow slice of content and some unnecessary limits on features to push people towards VIP or at least premium account status. DDO's F2P experience is tragically bad, both in terms of content gates and QoL features gated behind premium status, a real legacy of it's early days when F2P MMOs were largely basically just demo versions of "real" MMOs, but with the ability to see everyone else with the cool stuff hidden behind the pay wall flaunting it in front of you.
That said, other than first time purchases content (which is a huge wall at the start of your DDO experience) DDO is actually relatively low "maintenance"- an annual VIP subscription and the standard edition of the yearly expansion will run you about $150, which if DDO is your primary gaming expense is not crazy high compared to something like World of Warcraft or FFXIV which can run that in just the base subscription to say nothing of their in game cash shops or one time purchases for content (and gacha games give that number a run for its money in a single banner). Sure, you can spend more than that if you really want to, but I think you're actually getting decent value for that and if you wait for sales for expansions you don't have you can save even more if you don't care about running the latest expansion.
From there you could spend money on powerups like tomes and boosts like potions, but I don't think it's necessary to play the game or have fun. I've played alts with no tomes and had a decent time of it, and I am far from the best DDO player. While I do have experience and shared storage to help me, I think a new player could enjoy DDO without any of that, especially if they know how to use the wiki. That has a pretty high ceiling but in my opinion it's pretty optional and even if you're interested in that, I'd recommend just waiting for sales unless you absolutely need that tome now for some reason.
So, yeah, I kind of got off topic but I think DDO is more "pay to play the game and then pay a bit more to have a better time while playing it", not really pay to win. There's a pretty big pay wall, which is a problem with DDO's current economy where new players are expected to cough up piles of cash for content that isn't really worth it anymore (or, at least, not looking through the eyes of a new player) or subscribe to VIP, which is a commitment for a 20 year old game. But the actual pay ceiling (outside of Otto's boxes and shards/boxes/pots) is pretty reasonable for an MMO of DDO's quality and scope, and I do legitimately think DDO is a much more interesting game to play than the competition.
Justfungus
Well-known member
Is it pay to win?
well,
How many YEARS would you need to reach average Raid strength (10+ lives) with zero cash input?
with just the starting adventures you get for free.
and character slots
even counting the pittance of store coins you can earn
5 years ?
7 years ?
oh hell yea, this game is 100% Pay to Win.
well,
How many YEARS would you need to reach average Raid strength (10+ lives) with zero cash input?
with just the starting adventures you get for free.
and character slots
even counting the pittance of store coins you can earn
5 years ?
7 years ?
oh hell yea, this game is 100% Pay to Win.
Gimp
Well-known member
But i got a button that says i won DDO when i first hit completionist back in the day.
And to Shear-buckler.....if they did not do these things...you would not be playing....none of us would. The trick is not being in business...any fool can be in business. No the trick is STAYING in business. SSG has managed to do this.
PaleFox
Well-known member
DDO is about 90% pay to win.
It's just that 99% of the players are on that 10% of play to win.
Totally made up numbers ofc, but that is how it feels like to me.
All those tomes, boosts, elixers, and pots to get just an edge.
They all add up.
Of late we also got curses (and their cleansers,) reaper power, and mythic power.
Filigrees can also be a huge astral shards sinkhole to pour into.
It's just that 99% of the players are on that 10% of play to win.
Totally made up numbers ofc, but that is how it feels like to me.
All those tomes, boosts, elixers, and pots to get just an edge.
They all add up.
Of late we also got curses (and their cleansers,) reaper power, and mythic power.
Filigrees can also be a huge astral shards sinkhole to pour into.
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