POLL: RNG Gambling & Pay2Win ?

[Shear-buckler]

No it's really not. I'll refrain from responding in kind to call you a liar or an idiot. Tempting though that may be there is no need for it, nor would it be accurate. But you do you if it makes you think your argument will be enhanced by insults.

Bottom line is, objectively we're winning nothing here, and "subjective winning" is purely in your head and a pleasant form of delusion. It may make you feel better and happy which is fine, but it's actually quite meaningless otherwise.

I won a game of football is easy to define. How did you win? We scored more goals than the opposition. Easy.

Any other answer is ridiculous - Oh but we had more corners, for example. Fine. But the score was 1-1. Nobody actually won that game.

I won DDO. How did you win? Erm well in my head I define it as... <Insert answer here>

When actually the score here is always 0-0.

That is like arguing that Argentina did not win the semifinal because Spain won the final.

 

[paddymaxson]

ToL are convenience items IMO, not P2W. P2W is basically being able to buy item x that bypasses Y so you can get benefit Z. Ie say a "complete saga token" - allows you to buy a saga completion. That would be P2W. But XP pots and one quest flag for VIP definitely aren't that. Or DDO market exclusive OP weapons and gear.

All the stat tomes still do not guarantee a win for a quest. Again, may make things a bit easier but the tomes themselves are also level gated so they are not OP at low levels. Its also not that hard to get some tomes in-game.

The past life mechanic means buying levels with Otto's boxes is also not necessarily P2W, getting extra lives give a small boost at best and completionist is nice but not OP in any way.

Thats my 2p anyway

Pay to win might be the wrong term because yeah understandably paying for that stuff may not guarantee a win, like Elon Musk getting his path of exile 2 account boosted it's still possible for the person paying to be unfathomably crap at the game.

But it is /pay for advantage/ and "technically you could with enough time grind out all that stuff and never pay a penny" is in my eyes not really a reasonable argument that it's not, this isn't Warframe, if you ground that stuff as a f2p account you'd be at it till the heat death of the universe.

 

[Bravgji]

No it's really not. I'll refrain from responding in kind to call you a liar or an idiot. Tempting though that may be there is no need for it, nor would it be accurate. But you do you if it makes you think your argument will be enhanced by insults.

Bottom line is, objectively we're winning nothing here, and "subjective winning" is purely in your head and a pleasant form of delusion. It may make you feel better and happy which is fine, but it's actually quite meaningless otherwise.

I won a game of football is easy to define. How did you win? We scored more goals than the opposition. Easy.

Any other answer is ridiculous - Oh but we had more corners, for example. Fine. But the score was 1-1. Nobody actually won that game.

I won DDO. How did you win? Erm well in my head I define it as... <Insert answer here>

When actually the score here is always 0-0.

Sounds like arguing semantics, then. The point of the thread is still valid.

 

[Sylvado]

It is Pay for QOL, nothing more, you can't buy anything that you can't get with time playing.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

Sounds like arguing semantics, then. The point of the thread is still valid.

Not really, but if that works for you, ok.

 

[Bravgji]

Not really, but if that works for you, ok.

Yes, it is arguing semantics.

What do people mean when they call out P2W? That there is a clear, unfair advantage for when you pay for it. The exact meaning of "winning" is almost completely irrelevant to the concept of "P2W".

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

Yes, it is arguing semantics.

What do people mean when they call out P2W? That there is a clear, unfair advantage for when you pay for it. The exact meaning of "winning" is almost completely irrelevant to the concept of "P2W".

 

[Justfungus]

Look, nobody is saying that SSG can't make a Pay-to-win game.
They have the right to do that.
However, If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and acts like a duck ...
it is probably a duck.
They can make it pay to win and
we can point out that it is .... pay to win.
-----------------
From the stand point of end game, trying to argue that
it is not pay-to-win is an obvious lie.
-----------------
From the stand point of casual heroic ... nah, you can do just fine with F2P.
There will be annoying things but is manageable.
(Be sure to grab the Dungeon pack giveaway's during the holidays)
------------------
99% of all F2P games are at some point, Pay-to-win.
That is how they make money.
and DDO is right at the top when it comes to monetizing game success.
It is what it is.
-----------------
Trying to get SSG to stop or reduce this is a total waste of time.
They will not.

 

[Gimp]

DDO is about 90% pay to win.
It's just that 99% of the players are on that 10% of play to win.

Totally made up numbers ofc, but that is how it feels like to me.
All those tomes, boosts, elixers, and pots to get just an edge.
They all add up.
Of late we also got curses (and their cleansers,) reaper power, and mythic power.
Filigrees can also be a huge astral shards sinkhole to pour into.

What are you spending Astral shards on with filigrees? Ive literally got 3 dimensional bags full of fillies.....you can spend threads for raid ones but you cant pay to win threads. You have to do the raids.

And how do you buy remenants to get the reaper power / mythic power / and curse cards? Because i get way more CC from Rem turn ins then from chests. And curses are from cards best earned by doing sagas. You cany buy any of the cards in the store. And im not sure why anyone would spend astral shards on cards since they are easily obtained in game (well cleansing cards for the next 7 months or so). Just wondering. Because ive never bought any of the above with astral shards and some arent available at all for astral or cash.

 

[PaleFox]

What are you spending Astral shards on with filigrees? Ive literally got 3 dimensional bags full of fillies.....you can spend threads for raid ones but you cant pay to win threads. You have to do the raids.

And how do you buy remenants to get the reaper power / mythic power / and curse cards? Because i get way more CC from Rem turn ins then from chests. And curses are from cards best earned by doing sagas. You cany buy any of the cards in the store. And im not sure why anyone would spend astral shards on cards since they are easily obtained in game (well cleansing cards for the next 7 months or so). Just wondering. Because ive never bought any of the above with astral shards and some arent available at all for astral or cash.

There is still a market for filigrees, even (or should I say especially) the raid filigrees.
Recently I bought a solar gem of spell crit chance and a legendary version.
I had the points, not the luck so far and no time to farm one in the near future, so that's why.

Tomes, boosts, elixirs, pots and the likes can all be bought in the store for point.
Curses can't be bought directly but cleansers can be bought on the ASAH.
The various picks to pry various augment types out of their relevant sockets can be bought from the store, thankfully.
Anyway, my point is, whether you buy things directly from store to get that little extra (or skip with xp stones), or indirectly by spending astral shards; Its all pay to win.
Even the extra perks one gets when buying the ultimate xpacs.

 

[Buddha5440]

There is definitely “win” in this game and it materializes as showing off your character in groups and raids. That is the win.

No, that is stroking your own ego. You cannot WIN this game, you can only pay to make yourself feel more powerful than others but there are others who can do more than you without paying a dime because they are better gamers than you.

 

[Vua]

I pulled a diamond of swim 22. I won DDO. When do the credits roll?

 

[Tumideon]

Wake me up when SSG lets us buy threads and raid runes lol. Just go overboard.

 

[Oliphant]

Which is of course fine, for them, but isn't objectively true or useful. Personal motives can be insane at worst and are often irrational. You can't really judge anything or make an objective argument for much of anything on that basis.

Jeez bud. Who pays?

 

[Bjond]

IMHO, true Pay to Win usually involves PvP. Example: full pvp-gear in Aion will let you slaughter pve or partial-pvp in 3~5 seconds. I left Aion *just* before they went P2W, but when they did, you could BUY your way to a full pvp set.

This is not fun for either side. It's a wall that takes years to climb without paying and thus for new players it's pay or die. And, once you're there, it's not even fun because it's like killing yard trash in DDO.

---

DDO is far more about annoyance avoidance than winning. Your tolerance level for the various annoyances determines the "tax" you have to pay to have fun.

DDO's annoyances are access/locks and time-sinks. Don't care about those? Oh yeah, you've won DDO and can can play for FREE forever. It's not like Aion where trying to play for free gets you slaughtered like a squealing piglet.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

Jeez bud. Who pays?

Mug punters. Like me!

 

[Buddha5440]

Jeez bud. Who pays?

The people who pay are the ones who think having more shinies makes them somehow a better player...It's as simple as that.

 

[The Narc2]

Imagine these people being called mother ****er. The chocked look on their face when they awkwardly reply "I dont do that to my mother, thats illegal".

You are absolutely right again. I posted quite a bit bavk in this s thread that there is no point in arguing with over-educated types, they are going to keep using words like subjective and objective and keep arguing from a 100% literal perspective, as I posted before these people struggle in real life with social circles and likely struggle to keep their personal relationships in a good place.

…but i do continue to say the best term is to use “pay for advantage“ so you can just avoid the semantics of the over-educated types.

 

[Buddha5440]

You are absolutely right again. I posted quite a bit bavk in this s thread that there is no point in arguing with over-educated types, they are going to keep using words like subjective and objective and keep arguing from a 100% literal perspective, as I posted before these people struggle in real life with social circles and likely struggle to keep their personal relationships in a good place.

…but i do continue to say the best term is to use “pay for advantage“ so you can just avoid the semantics of the over-educated types.

"pay for advantage" is not the same a "Pay to Win".

 

[Bjond]

The people who pay are the ones who think having more shinies makes them somehow a better player...It's as simple as that.

Eh? Of those I know who regularly buy stuff in DDO, it's for access or convenience. Even farming with shards = convenience/time, not power or prestige.

Example: I buy expansions so I can access all raids. I buy the ones with extra AP for access to a broader range of builds. IIRC, the only expansion I didn't buy (used points) was Salt because -- no extra AP and no raid = nothing worth buying.