Preview 2 Dark Gifts

Status
Not open for further replies.

Anurakh

Little Nixie
Which might be fine, not everyone does?

If DDO should exclude solo vs. group play build trade-offs to encourage more grouping is a different but valid discussion.
I have nothing against stuff for solo players. I was just making that small comment to your comment about healers who could heal these undead. Over time, I've had to heal a few characters with disastrous healing amplification, and I certainly didn't like it at all. The last one was a Bladeforged like no other I've ever seen before; I barely healed him at all with Heal. And I've seen similar dissatisfaction in other healers facing similar "problematic patients."

Are these feats heroic? Do they have a minimum level?
 

droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
There should probably be a purely cosmetic Dark Gift that has no effect on play at all. It sounds like this will be a must-take at character creation and in that case there should probably be an opt-out.

There's two of them you can take and just never use, and you'll never see a penalty. Just dont slot those abilities and ignore the system
 

LurkingVeteran

Well-known member
-100 Pos Amp would be -100% healing power, aka 0. +100 takes you from 100% to 200%, -100 takes you from 100% to 0%. Its all linear AFAIK. Even PRR/MRR go linear at negative values.

Hopefully more than -100% doesnt make you start taking damage from friendly Positive spells lol
Do you have any data for this? I don't think there are any weird thresholding effects around -100 where healer spell power just disappears.

Why would it be -150 instead of -100 then? I might be wrong but it seems like a strange design.
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
There should probably be a purely cosmetic Dark Gift that has no effect on play at all. It sounds like this will be a must-take at character creation and in that case there should probably be an opt-out.
You could just take this and never use the leap.
Mist Walker
  • You have learned how to navigate the Mists with time and a little luck.
  • You gain Misty Step: As Abundant Step, but you disappear. +5 Reflex Save and 20% stacking incorporeality while Stepping. (Shares a cooldown with other abundant steps). 12 second cooldown.
  • When you use this Misty Step, there is a chance the Mists catch up with you and you gain Exhaustion for 6 seconds (-50% penalty to movement speed, -6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity, and cannot tumble). This exhaustion cannot be warded or removed by effects that remove Exhaustion.
 

droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
Do you have any data for this? I don't think there are any weird thresholding effects around -100 where healer spell power just disappears.

Is -100 Hamp even achievable right now?

Why would it be -150 instead of -100 then?

A) because they just arbitrarily decided -5 per char level was a good penalty

B) because it means you hit "cannot be healed" at L20, and then just stay there
 
Im never going to take something where the penalty is a chance for rng to rekt me. I want to be in control of what affects me when. The feats should also (mostly) penalize a different aspect of the character than they are benefiting
For example, minion of the eldritch or living shadow are feats I would not touch

On the otherhand things where the penalty is known, and also different than the bonus...
Form of Pain and Touch of Death both have places where I would use them

Here are some examples of what I would like to see done differently
Living Shadow: Increased attack range, your fortification is now 0
Misty Step: Also grants evasion for the dash and a few seconds afterwards, lose a maximum tumble charge
Minion of the Eldritch: Lasts 20s, after you use it 6s of minus 2 Spell Power per Character Level, and 1% Spell Critical Damage for every 3 Character Level

Other interesting ideas
+10% positive/negative spell damage, -10% other spell damage
Passive regeneration, you cannot heal yourself
Double sneak (imbue?) damage, you cannot crit
 
Last edited:

Anurakh

Little Nixie
The eventual plan is the Dhampir Dark Bargainer Iconic gets a Racial Feat Slot to take a Dark Bargain feat for free. (In fact, they must take one, but that is not in this build)
Wait, does the iconic absolutely have to take one of these feats that I personally hate? You've just killed the iconic for me.

No, please. Provide an alternative, the flat Toughness feat, for example, or Mental Toughness. Not particularly exciting, but at least you're not forcing us to take one of these aberrations. I don't mind these types of options existing for those who like them, but I hate them and I don't want to be forced to take them just because I play a race.

Also, what's up with caster iconics? First, the Chaosmancer and having to spend 19 racial points to get rid of Bad Surges. Now this one with these types of aberrant feats. Please, casters are severely penalized these days. Stop beating them up.

And are you surprised why people like iconics less and less?
 

Yamani

Tyrannical Overlord
1st: The debuff for this misty step won't leak over into the misty step that horizon walker gets right?
2nd: Webtouched Wretch sounds fairly similar to Nerve venom, just with a debuff if you get hit and no helpless? Seems to be the only option for ranged. While more CC is nice. I'd prefer more power.
As a suggestion: Maybe something that increases the AoE size for said ranged attacks but have a chance to backfire and double the cooldown of the attack.
 

LurkingVeteran

Well-known member
Is -100 Hamp even achievable right now?



A) because they just arbitrarily decided -5 per char level was a good penalty

B) because it means you hit "cannot be healed" at L20, and then just stay there
There are some abilities that debuff HAmp that you could try out on monsters or in PvP. I don't think you can stack it to -100, but you could probably get enough data points for some kind of statistical extrapolation. Ofc, it's easier soon to just test it on lama.
 

Kimbere

Well-known member
Echoing Soul
  • Your soul is fractured, shifted, or connected to another in some way. Perhaps your past or future is affecting your present soul, or perhaps some other entity is inextricably linked with you. In any case, it manifests in knowledge and fears that aren't your own.
  • +3 to all Skills plus an additional 1 for every 2 Character Levels you have
  • +1 to all Saving Throws, plus an additional 1 for every 3 Character Levels you have
  • When you get hit with Melee or Ranged attacks, there is a very small chance your Echoing Soul will cause you to become Afraid, Blinded, or Immobilized for six seconds with no save. Immunities to these conditions do not apply to this effect.
I would never take this one on any toon which runs high skull reaper. An unavoidable 6s stun AFTER you just took one hit would be a death sentence. Ditto and possibly even more so for push raiding.

Ironically, the higher difficulties are where the increased skills and saving throws would be most desirable, so if this stays as is, that's a shame. Most players don't need big skills and saves boosts in non-reaper difficulties.

  • Living Shadow
    • Your Shadow extends your reach, acting out your dark impulses.
    • Your basic Melee attacks have extended range, hitting further in front of you.
    • Whenever you land a Critical Hit, there is a small chance your shadow exerts its will, causing your damage to be reduced by 15% for 6 seconds. This can only occur once every 30 seconds.
      • This is the same extension effect that Shadowdancer grants, and does not stack with that skill.
This one seems to meet the stated goals reasonably well *IF* the extended range feature is working as intended and not bugged.

  • Mist Walker
    • You have learned how to navigate the Mists with time and a little luck.
    • You gain Misty Step: As Abundant Step, but you disappear. +5 Reflex Save and 20% stacking incorporeality while Stepping. (Shares a cooldown with other abundant steps). 12 second cooldown.
    • When you use this Misty Step, there is a chance the Mists catch up with you and you gain Exhaustion for 6 seconds (-50% penalty to movement speed, -6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity, and cannot tumble). This exhaustion cannot be warded or removed by effects that remove Exhaustion.
What is the % chance on the Exhaustion proc? That will play a large part in whether this is worth taking or not. Slow movement is one of the bigger fun killers in the game. For example, if it's a 5% chance, maybe it's worth it. If it's a 20% chance, I would never take this. There are enough other ways to get Step-like abilities that the penalty cannot be too onerous on this one.

  • Touch of Death
    • Your every touch is pain, but you can use that to deliver death to enemies.
    • +3 Negative Spell Power per Character Level
    • +3 Negative Healing Amplification per Character Level
    • -5 Positive Spell Power per Character Level
    • -5 Positive Healing Amplification per Character Level
The benefits on this seem pretty good and possibly don't come with a strong enough downside. For any undead form build, the downside to this will be minimized to a large extent.

  • Form of Pain
    • Your body is cursed to be prone to all manner of damage, but with the ability to withstand it.
    • When you take damage your body changes and you gain the Form of Pain effect which grants +2 PRR/MRR but also reduces movement speed and increases spell costs by 1% as the pain distracts you. This can stack 10 times, with one stack being removed every 5 seconds.
Again, movement speed penalties are one of the biggest fun killers in this game. This should be at least 3 PRR/MRR. If the MRR bonus can exceed the MRR cap on cloth and light armor, that might be a decent incentive to take it on non-tank builds.

  • Webtouched Wretch
    • You've become entwined with a great cosmic web, which occasionally becomes coterminous with reality.
    • Your offensive spells, mele and ranged attacks attacks occasionally cause strange spectral webs coat your enemies either slowing them or entangling them for up to six seconds with no save.
    • This does not work on bosses , raid bosses or oozes but will work on incorporable or fiery creatures which are normally immune to web include monsters or champs protected by freedom of movement.
    • When you get hit with Melee or Ranged attacks, there is a small chance the webs turn on you, applying a weakened slow effect which lasts 6 seconds but can stack 3 times. Spells/Immunities like Freedom of Movement do not prevent this.
What's the percent chance for the Slowing/Entangling proc?

Slowing/entangling trash mobs isn't that much of a benefit in many scenarios as trash mobs tend to die so fast that it doesn't matter much. And again, movement speed reduction is a huge fun killer, especially in fast moving groups.

I don't see any builds/scenarios where I'd be inclined to take this.

  • Minion of the Eldritch
    • Your soul has touched something beyond the planes, and a connection has formed there.
    • Activate: You gain +5 Spell Power per Character Level, and +1% Spell Critical Damage for every 2 Character Levels you have for 12 seconds. 2 minute cooldown.
    • When you use this ability, there is a chance the Eldritch Being you reach out to will grow tired of your petitions and decide to punish you instead. This chance increases each time you use this ability between rests.
      • Punishment: Activate: You lose 3 Spell Power per Character Level, and 1% Spell Critical Damage for every 2 Character Levels you have for 30 seconds.
This one seems reasonably balanced.
 

SpardaX

Well-known member
[*]Living Shadow
[*]Your Shadow extends your reach, acting out your dark impulses.
[*]Your basic Melee attacks have extended range, hitting further in front of you.
[*]Whenever you land a Critical Hit, there is a small chance your shadow exerts its will, causing your damage to be reduced by 15% for 6 seconds. This can only occur once every 30 seconds.

This seems like a cool one, and I could see myself taking it, IF the shadow dancer thing worked.

Last time I checked (to be fair, it was a while ago), it worked sort of. Let me see if I can find my bug report.

Found it.

Oct 5, 2022, 10:56 PM PDT

The Epic Strike upgrade, Improved Imbuement in the shadow dancer epic destiny tree only adds additional melee range on certain attack animations.

My personal testing shows that on Greatsword, Quarterstaff, and Two Weapon Fighting animations, only the "Attacking while moving" animations benefit from the increased Melee Attack range. None of the standing still animations seem to benefit.

In the Single Weapon fighting animation, it seems the moving animations, and attacks: 1, 2 and 4, of the standing still animation benefit, but the 3rd attack in the still animation (The stab / jab) does not benefit.

I could go test it again, and I guess I will. But to my knowledge, there's been no release note since then saying the issue has been fixed, so Iv just constantly been under the impression that it never was.
 
Last edited:

SpardaX

Well-known member
There should probably be a purely cosmetic Dark Gift that has no effect on play at all. It sounds like this will be a must-take at character creation and in that case there should probably be an opt-out.
It sounds like it's a must take for the new iconic.
And optional for everyone else.
That's how Im reading it anyway.
 
Last edited:

Varr

Well-known member
Touch of Death is a bit absurd, -170 positive amp in exchange for 102 negative spellpower and 102 neg amp is too much downside relative to the benefit, especially considering builds that would want this are undead and already reduce incoming positive energy healing by 50% before amp is applied.
170 positive amp is close to how much you get when actually aiming for it and basically making you unhealable with positive, I'd suggest just making the numbers equal but also the biggest issue is negative healing is not supported in epic destinies at all.
I'd pay -1200 Pos Amp and SP for 102 Neg Amp and SP. I like this a lot. Hope it makes it to live.

Honestly undead sheathed characters should never been able to be healed with Positive Energy. But that was a long losing debate a long time ago lost in an effort to make things dum.....Easier.
 

Purr

Well-known member
Touch of Death is a bit absurd, -170 positive amp in exchange for 102 negative spellpower and 102 neg amp is too much downside relative to the benefit, especially considering builds that would want this are undead and already reduce incoming positive energy healing by 50% before amp is applied.
170 positive amp is close to how much you get when actually aiming for it and basically making you unhealable with positive, I'd suggest just making the numbers equal but also the biggest issue is negative healing is not supported in epic destinies at all.
This sounds exactly like what the gift is supposed to do. You get extra healing from negative but none from positive
 

SteelStar

Senior Systems Designer
As something of a guideline for balance discussions:

Dark Gifts in Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft (our p&p base for this feature) grant power with a heavy drawback or significant risk.

The idea is the same here - they should be significantly stronger than the average ML 1 feat, but if you're using it for its benefit, you must not be able to completely negate the risk or drawback.

They should be tempting, but not "the drawback is too bad to ever use" and definitely not "this is always worth taking because the risk/drawback is negligible".
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top