Preview 2 Dark Gifts

Lotoc

Well-known member
This sounds exactly like what the gift is supposed to do. You get extra healing from negative but none from positive
Yeah, just the biggest most glaring issue is overall negative healing support is not represented well enough to justify taking this.
Giving up using Reborn in Fire, healing pillar etc. along with making it so much harder for allies to heal you is a hard sell. If EDs actually had healing options it'd be a different matter.
 

Anurakh

Little Nixie
As something of a guideline for balance discussions:

Dark Gifts in Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft (our p&p base for this feature) grant power with a heavy drawback or significant risk.

The idea is the same here - they should be significantly stronger than the average ML 1 feat, but if you're using it for its benefit, you must not be able to completely negate the risk or drawback.

They should be tempting, but not "the drawback is too bad to ever use" and definitely not "this is always worth taking because the risk/drawback is negligible".
I understand the concept, but the thing is, not everyone likes it. I shy away from these types of numerical options in both PNP and video games. I think it's fine that they exist for those who like them, but I don't think you should force us to take them in the iconic.

The iconic has received many dark gifts from its patron (including the evil damage of the EB!), there's no need for this type of feat to be mandatory x_x
 

Zaszgul

Well-known member
Most of these read as "negligible buff with a chance of guaranteed death" and would ruin any character that takes them.

Drawbacks as a concept are fine, but guaranteed death from being CC'd is not.

Measured drawbacks like "you lose X% dps" or "you gain stacks of vulnerable" are an example of what's acceptable.
 

Anurakh

Little Nixie
While I don't mind them existing as long as we're not forced to take them like the iconic one, I also wonder about the usefulness of copying these kinds of features from PNP. These kinds of features aren't usually widely liked; quite the opposite: fewer people like them than dislike them. Wouldn't it be better to spend valuable design time on something that most players would like?

And even more so if you want to sell them, as in the case of the iconic one, in the most expensive pack.
 

Vox

Well-known member
id rather see it 5 neg amp -3 pos amp as -170 pos amp in current endgame healing environment would make you impossible to heal with normal healers. alternatively, half current positive amp regardless what it is and keep the sp reduction (assuming you are in undead form)

Close to 500 neg amp seems pretty doable though. Even with the unfair caster penalty, that's a decent amount of healing with 3 dots running.

Maybe 400 on an ES dhampyr tank too lol
 

Zaszgul

Well-known member
Touch of Death
  • Your every touch is pain, but you can use that to deliver death to enemies.
  • +3 Negative Spell Power per Character Level
  • +3 Negative Healing Amplification per Character Level
  • -5 Positive Spell Power per Character Level
  • -5 Positive Healing Amplification per Character Level
While most of these I would never take, this one's probably too good for negative-healing characters. Negative healing is not in a good place at endgame, but this single feat is not a good place to try and solve that entire problem.

It may make more sense as something like:
Your melee, ranged and spell casts have a chance to cast Harm on the target, and when receiving damage you have a chance to have Harm cast upon you. (In both cases, CL = your character level with MCL of 40). Maybe you could also add some reasonable amount of namp, e.g., +20.

Benefits:
  • increased dps against non-undead
  • potential self-healing if you are undead, not affected by reaper penalty (should be purposely engineered as strong enough to offset most of a received hit when it procs)

Drawbacks:
  • you unavoidably heal undead enemies
  • suffer extra damage if you are not undead, (and not just a little)
 

Gavaleus

Active member
So I actually love power trade-off mechanics in a lot of other games. Balancing buffs with downsides is something I find quite fun, but none of these elicit that feeling of "ooh that could be really cool... the downside might be tough though... but think about what I could do with that... maybe I could manage to deal with it..." etc.

I understand that you shouldn't be able to negate the downsides, and I completely agree with that. But the downsides outweigh the upsides by too much.

These lean heavily on plain stat buffs for the positives (which are a bit boring), and self CC for the negatives which is probably the worst type of downside. Slows aren't too bad, but hard self CC is practically guaranteed death on non-trivial difficulties.

I'd like to see more choices that alter gameplay and character building choices. Crazier things like "SP costs are halved, but also cost that much in HP" or "Perfect Parry: You can no longer continuously block. Instead you can only block for 0.25 seconds with a 0.5 second cooldown, but blocked attacks deal 30% less damage to you."
 

Nickodeamous

Well-known member
From my point of view, this is in the lines of wild magic where something can happen that we dont want. This is role playing in my book, which is OK, but it's not for me. I like for one dislike this (at least for DDO) so this will be ignored 100% of the time I still play the game.

I would rather just add more nominal feat choices that some folks may take. Not a fan of "if this happens, then this also may happen".
 

intravenous

Well-known member
As something of a guideline for balance discussions:

Dark Gifts in Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft (our p&p base for this feature) grant power with a heavy drawback or significant risk.

The idea is the same here - they should be significantly stronger than the average ML 1 feat, but if you're using it for its benefit, you must not be able to completely negate the risk or drawback.

They should be tempting, but not "the drawback is too bad to ever use" and definitely not "this is always worth taking because the risk/drawback is negligible".
yes and its a fail. most of these will never be taken because the drawback is really that bad
 

ACJ97F

Well-known member
Nope. The point is they are not skippable.
Dark Bargainer Iconic will have a racial slot to select one. Nobody else has to. (y)

Stated just those willing to accept the risk/reward, and they'll be on Fred for non-Iconics that want to bother.
 
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Mary

Well-known member
Today we're taking a look at a new set of feats planned for release with the Lamordia Expansion Pack: Dark Gift Feats.

How can I get Dark Gift Feats?

  • Currently anyone can take a Dark Gift as a trainable feat. This is set up this way for ease of testing, and is temporary for this preview.
  • The eventual plan is the Dhampir Dark Bargainer Iconic gets a Racial Feat Slot to take a Dark Bargain feat for free. (In fact, they must take one, but that is not in this build)
  • Dark Gift Feats are all ML1.
  • A character may only have one Dark Gift feat. (but that limitation is not in this build)
  • Fred will function with Dark Gifts though once their implemented on the Dark Bargainer correctly you will only be able to swap out a Dark Gift for another.
What ARE Dark Gift Feats?

  • Dark Gift Feats represent a bargain you've made with the Dark Powers. They're based on the Dark Gifts in Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft.
  • They are intentionally stronger or more flexible than many standard feats.
  • However, being a pact with the Dark Powers, each of them comes with a significant, relatively unavoidable, and never-negateable drawback.
    • It is very intentional that the drawbacks are harsh. While the details at this stage of design are somewhat flexible, we will not make a Dark Gift feat where the penalty can be easily avoided, easily negated/removed, or is non-applicable for the kinds of builds the feat would benefit. You are meant to contend with the penalty.
  • That said, the balance we are looking for is having the power be strong enough and the drawback be significant enough where each feat CAN be worth taking, but isn't ALWAYS worth taking. The risk should be considerable and the payoff if you do take it significant.
  • We'd like to end up with a list where most builds have at least one feat that could be applicable that build.
  • To reiterate: These are meant to be risky, and are not intended to be for new players or those not looking to deal with this level of risk/reward.
  • With all that said, let's take a look at our current planned list of Dark Gift Feats!

  • Echoing Soul
    • Your soul is fractured, shifted, or connected to another in some way. Perhaps your past or future is affecting your present soul, or perhaps some other entity is inextricably linked with you. In any case, it manifests in knowledge and fears that aren't your own.
    • +3 to all Skills plus an additional 1 for every 2 Character Levels you have
    • +1 to all Saving Throws, plus an additional 1 for every 3 Character Levels you have
    • When you get hit with Melee or Ranged attacks, there is a very small chance your Echoing Soul will cause you to become Afraid, Blinded, or Immobilized for six seconds with no save. Immunities to these conditions do not apply to this effect.
  • Living Shadow
    • Your Shadow extends your reach, acting out your dark impulses.
    • Your basic Melee attacks have extended range, hitting further in front of you.
    • Whenever you land a Critical Hit, there is a small chance your shadow exerts its will, causing your damage to be reduced by 15% for 6 seconds. This can only occur once every 30 seconds.
      • This is the same extension effect that Shadowdancer grants, and does not stack with that skill.
  • Mist Walker
    • You have learned how to navigate the Mists with time and a little luck.
    • You gain Misty Step: As Abundant Step, but you disappear. +5 Reflex Save and 20% stacking incorporeality while Stepping. (Shares a cooldown with other abundant steps). 12 second cooldown.
    • When you use this Misty Step, there is a chance the Mists catch up with you and you gain Exhaustion for 6 seconds (-50% penalty to movement speed, -6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity, and cannot tumble). This exhaustion cannot be warded or removed by effects that remove Exhaustion.
  • Touch of Death
    • Your every touch is pain, but you can use that to deliver death to enemies.
    • +3 Negative Spell Power per Character Level
    • +3 Negative Healing Amplification per Character Level
    • -5 Positive Spell Power per Character Level
    • -5 Positive Healing Amplification per Character Level
  • Form of Pain
    • Your body is cursed to be prone to all manner of damage, but with the ability to withstand it.
    • When you take damage your body changes and you gain the Form of Pain effect which grants +2 PRR/MRR but also reduces movement speed and increases spell costs by 1% as the pain distracts you. This can stack 10 times, with one stack being removed every 5 seconds.
  • Webtouched Wretch
    • You've become entwined with a great cosmic web, which occasionally becomes coterminous with reality.
    • Your offensive spells, mele and ranged attacks attacks occasionally cause strange spectral webs coat your enemies either slowing them or entangling them for up to six seconds with no save.
    • This does not work on bosses , raid bosses or oozes but will work on incorporable or fiery creatures which are normally immune to web include monsters or champs protected by freedom of movement.
    • When you get hit with Melee or Ranged attacks, there is a small chance the webs turn on you, applying a weakened slow effect which lasts 6 seconds but can stack 3 times. Spells/Immunities like Freedom of Movement do not prevent this.
  • Minion of the Eldritch
    • Your soul has touched something beyond the planes, and a connection has formed there.
    • Activate: You gain +5 Spell Power per Character Level, and +1% Spell Critical Damage for every 2 Character Levels you have for 12 seconds. 2 minute cooldown.
    • When you use this ability, there is a chance the Eldritch Being you reach out to will grow tired of your petitions and decide to punish you instead. This chance increases each time you use this ability between rests.
      • Punishment: Activate: You lose 3 Spell Power per Character Level, and 1% Spell Critical Damage for every 2 Character Levels you have for 30 seconds.
Anyone who's played DDO knows what this means 'there is a very small chance ...' bro in ddo this means all the time, every time. I literally - bro I literally - LITERALLY HAVE had 7 teleport fails in a row in the air over the market falling - that is something else with a very very small chance and it happens all the time. Give us the % and tell us its on an actual random die generator and not DDO's native one that makes .000001% happen all the time when its bad, and 25% never happen when its good (named loot with max discovery - is it 25% now or 27%? i dont know, correct me)
 

droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
Give us the %

This

To their credit, the devs have been responsive about a lot of concerns from the player base. But they really need to dig themselves out of this foxhole about sharing actual numbers

The disadvantages of hiding them, like exacerbating frustration and leaving players to try and test or data mine and then use those questionable values to discuss mechanics, greatly outweigh the disadvantages of sharing them, like enabling more min max optimization.
 

Taleisin

Well-known member
Anyone who's played DDO knows what this means 'there is a very small chance ...' bro in ddo this means all the time, every time. I literally - bro I literally - LITERALLY HAVE had 7 teleport fails in a row in the air over the market falling - that is something else with a very very small chance and it happens all the time. Give us the % and tell us its on an actual random die generator and not DDO's native one that makes .000001% happen all the time when its bad, and 25% never happen when its good (named loot with max discovery - is it 25% now or 27%? i dont know, correct me)
I was thinking similarly. For example, in a fight at end game when using melee attacks, that’s a LOT of swinging. That means even a small chance happens often enough.
 

Mary

Well-known member
Let's talk about the wild, homebrewed, shake-n-bake mashup of D&D rulesets in Dungeons & Dragons Online—3.0, 3.5, 4e, 5e, all blended like a dragon's smoothie. I dig the creativity, but let’s get real: Van Richten’s Guide to Ravenloft is a hot take used in Ravenloft campagins, not in general D&D, and I’m wonderin’ if its dark gifts and Strahd-style bargains make sense beyond the foggy dread of Barovia.

Like, does this gothic horror vibe work in the Forgotten Realms, where gods like Mystra are slingin’ spells, or in Eberron, where dragons are basically runnin’ the cosmic show?

In Barovia, the dark gifts and bargains with the Dark Powers, creepy, reality-warping entities that keep Strahd von Zarovich on his vampire throne, and there they make total sense. The Van Richten’s Guide lays it out: these powers are tied to the Domains of Dread, isolated pockets of misery where the Dark Powers play puppet master. You take a deal, you get some edgy boons, but you’re also cursed with a side of eternal torment. It’s flavorful, it’s thematic, it’s like hot sauce on a gothic taco. Strahd’s realm is built for this, Barovia is a prison plane, cut off from the multiverse, where the Dark Powers are the ultimate shot-callers.

But let’s teleport outta Barovia and into the Forgotten Realms. This is where things get shakier than a gelatinous cube on a trampoline. The Realms have their own cosmic order, Mystra’s Weave powers magic, gods like Bane and Cyric scheme, and events like the Spellplague and Mystra’s death shook the world harder than a tarrasque's fist.

The Dark Powers? They don’t have a foothold here. The lore of Van Richten’s says they’re tied to the Domains of Dread, not the broader multiverse. Trying to shove their bargains into all of DDO feels like trying to fit a lich’s phylactery into a paladin’s backpack. A Forgotten Realms or Eberron player making a deal with some shadowy entity would more likely be dealing with a devil like Asmodeus or a demon from Khyber, not some ambiguous Ravenloft force. The lore just doesn’t mesh.

Eberron is even more clear cut than Faerun, where the cosmic landscape of Eberron has its own power structure: the Draconic Prophecy, the dragons Above, Below, and Between, and the Progenitor Dragons Siberys, Eberron, and Khyber controlling the ENTIRE stage. Even the Demon Queen of Spiders, Lolth herself, can’t just waltz in and rewrite Draconic Prophecy. She had to use lackeys and was stuck schemin’ with dragonshards in Khyber’s depths. The Dark Powers of Ravenloft? They’d be as out of place as a beholder in House Cannith. Eberron’s lore is about the fallout, both physical and mental of the super destructive Last War where a doomsday weapon literally obliterated an entire section of the map. Now that is the cursed Mournlands where the Lord of Blades and rogue warforged live, unfettered as masters because any living being that goes into the Mournlands dies. Go back in time in Eberron a few thousand years and theres the sacrifice of the Giants that obliterated the 13th moon. We all know that story from playing DDO over the years.

A dark gift in Eberron would feel like a random plot device, diluting the weight of both Eberron and Faerun's setting, unique history, mythos, lore and etc - like the Day of Mourning or the fall of Xen’drik were events that actually shifted power in a big way. In Faerun, Mystra was killed - she was the god of all magic, and she doesn’t exist in Eberron, the Spellplague never happened in Eberron because spell power comes from the Dragons, not Mystra or the Weave. The Dark Powers have no cosmic jurisdiction out of Ravenloft. It’s a different multiversal zip code. You could retcon and homebrew a story where they do, but does that make DDO a better game? Does that make player characters more engaged or is it just a gimic? From what Ive seen of the bargains presented, they all are no better than the Guidance of Shar trinket and anyone who knows DDO knows that trinket is a hard skip. At best, i think these powers, rather than a class build point, should be on gear, perhaps all as trinkets or gear sets or a landscape curse for Ravenloft - basically once you enter ravenloft you accept or reject the dark bargain, but warping out to Eberron or FR should (really) negate it.

Van Richten’s Guide is awesome for Ravenloft campaigns. The dark gifts add that extra layer of “oh crap, I’m doomed” flavor that makes Barovia Barovia. But porting them game-wide, into settings with their own rich lore, is like trying to use a vorpal sword to cut a birthday cake, it’s overkill and messes up the existing vibe and lore of the game. Forgotten Realms has its own great backstory, the Time of Troubles, the Spellplague, and the mythals of Myth Drannor carryin’ the narrative weight. In Eberron, the Last War, the Draconic Prophecy, and the fallout of Xen’drik.

Slappin’ Ravenloft’s mechanics onto these settings dilutes their unique lore, like watering down a dwarf’s ale. And dwarves do not like watered down ale. The Dark Powers don’t “spill over” into other planes, they’re explicitly tied to the Domains of Dread, per the lore in Van Richten’s and older Ravenloft books like Domains of Dread (2e). So, while I respect the homebrew hustle in DDO, I’m sayin’ Van Richten’s Guide should stay in Ravenloft and vote for these dark gifts be only available in ravenloft content and instead of 'feats' be made into gear or some environmental effect that the player agrees to when they arrive, say after they complete the first quest in ravenloft like into the mists.

Anyway, my 2 cents as a writer. Maybe its a hot take, maybe not. That's it. See you.
 
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canicus

Well-known member
I suppose there was a significant amount of dev time put into this, so I doubt it will just be scrapped. However, I don't think I would use any of these at all. I think non-random trade-offs would be much better. Meaningful choices are what makes gameplay truly interesting and I just don't know if the randomness of the side-effects qualifies here. If this is themed around a bargain with a dark power, then have it be a bargain, this for that.

I think what makes wild magic work for me, when this doesn't is that wild magic warns me before something bad happens. I can see the symbol over my head and make a choice to cast that spell or not. sure, sometimes I'm in the middle of combat and it's a more difficult choice, but it is still a choice. Here the choice is, random things might happen, when? who knows? The random nature of this may work well in PnP, but I don't think it works as well in a game like this.

In the end, though, I like Dark Bargainer as a whole and absolutely love that we are getting a warlock Iconic. If the Dark Gifts go in as they are, I will just take something at random and never use it. It wont stop me from playing the class, but I will always wonder what better option could have been in that spot.
 
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