Preview 2 Dark Gifts

[Lotoc]

Ok considering these are meant to be pretty powerful feats with big drawbacks and are specifically for Dark Bargainers only, is there any consideration of giving immunity strips through these?
Say if Touch of Death stripped negative immunity so a bargainer abyss lock can actually feel good or negative energy spells in EDs would feel like good options for Dark pact?
Or perhaps a "Deeper pact" feat that'd let you strip immunity to your pact element but in exchange you lose some blast dice or something?

 

[handofgood]

weakened slow? how much? and whats the chance to grab enemies? these numbers could make or break this choice

Tested on lvl 4 barb using a greatsword with nothing to enhance attack speed ;
some dry factors :
-hits frequency 1.428 hits per sec ( or a hit every 0.7 sec)
-test length : 1 min
-used auto attack , with no active attacks combined
- total hits in the test: approx 86
- there is no ICD on each of the effects (tested)
-entangle and slow proc separately ( they could be active at the same time ) so i treat a proc as a generic effect (slow/entangle)
-the test timer started from a proc

results:
- 5 procs in 54 sec
-proc #;time [{1;8.5} , {2;21.6} ,{3;27} ,{4;32.3} , {5;53.6}]
-did some math so avg hits to proc anything is 15.32
- means its approx 6.5% chance to proc somthing

 

[Belenian]

After reading the descriptions in Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft, I would suggest the following:

Echoing Soul
Skill proficiencies and languages are pretty useful in DND5. Translating them to skill boni and saves in DDO is probably not enough.

• Increase the boni to give maybe spell power and armor class
• Or reduce the penalties to afraid, silenced or vision impaired (like in shadow walk)

Living Shadow
Mage Hand cantrip is very flexible and 10 feet melee attacks in DND5 is very good! Again, it's not the same power level in DDO at all!

• Permanent range increase for melee attacks in DDO is OK for the cost
• Not very exciting.
• Maybe add concealment effect? 1% stacking concealment per class level?

Mist Walker
Along with misty step, this is supposed to also give mist traveler - a plane shift. Both of these are pretty meaningful. I understand that the book talks about exhaustion after a rest. Translating this into a chance for exhaustion on every use is too much in my opinion.

• Instead of a chance for exhaustion, make it cost hit points to activate

Touch of Death
I was kinda happy with this, because it might fit well with an undead shroud of sorts. However, I do not like it anymore after reading the book's description:

• Death Touch – As an action, you make an unarmed strike. This deals an additional 1d10 necrotic damage on a hit. Damage increases by 1d10 at levels 5 (2d10), 11 (3d10), and 17 (4d10.)
• Inescapable Death – When hitting a target with an attack roll that deals necrotic damage, you ignore any of your targets’ resistance to that necrotic damage.
• Withering Contact – If you are grappling or being grappled by a creature at the start of your turn, that creature takes 1d10 necrotic damage.

This would very well translate into the game with a negative imbue/pact dice, a negative damage shield and negative immunity stripping! Pretty much what an Abyss Warlock would want!

The drawback would have to be more severe, I guess, since the book only gives an RP drawback. But please consider this again!

 

[Fenryn]

At this time, the only feat out of the list that I am interested in would be Touch of Death. Since the Dark Bargainer isn't REQUIRED to take the Dark Powers pact, I could see this being useful on an Abyss Pact warlock, or having synergy with some splash with DA or PM, especially for soloing. If in a group, I'd have to notify anyone with heals to not heal me, but I don't see that as too much of a problem.

 

[axel15810]

General feedback - I like the idea in theory. Balancing it appropriately to get the risk/reward in the right spot will be difficult. On most of these it's pretty much impossible to give feedback on if the penalty makes sense for the benefit without knowing the specific % chance of the negative effect. Until I get more information, I doubt I'd go for any except the leap at the moment. I think you all should consider just disclosing the specific percentage chances on the negative effects, that way we can actually give feedback based on the math and help get you to the right number. Because for most of these it's going to boil down to a cost/benefit analysis based on the math. Without knowing the percentage it's mostly just a lot of subjective speculation.

• Echoing Soul
  • Your soul is fractured, shifted, or connected to another in some way. Perhaps your past or future is affecting your present soul, or perhaps some other entity is inextricably linked with you. In any case, it manifests in knowledge and fears that aren't your own.
  • +3 to all Skills plus an additional 1 for every 2 Character Levels you have
  • +1 to all Saving Throws, plus an additional 1 for every 3 Character Levels you have
  • When you get hit with Melee or Ranged attacks, there is a very small chance your Echoing Soul will cause you to become Afraid, Blinded, or Immobilized for six seconds with no save. Immunities to these conditions do not apply to this effect.

Without knowing what the exact percent is of the negative effect - I can see possibly trappers who want to catch up on trapping skills maybe considering using this. But few trappers are starting as 1 warlock so that's not very applicable. The feat will be an automatic take for hagglebots, but otherwise even a .5% chance of immobilization per hit is not worth the benefits since 6 secs of immobilization = insta death essentially particularly in higher diffculties.

• Living Shadow
  • Your Shadow extends your reach, acting out your dark impulses.
  • Your basic Melee attacks have extended range, hitting further in front of you.
  • Whenever you land a Critical Hit, there is a small chance your shadow exerts its will, causing your damage to be reduced by 15% for 6 seconds. This can only occur once every 30 seconds.
    • This is the same extension effect that Shadowdancer grants, and does not stack with that skill.

Depends on how long the reach is, what the % chance for damage reduction is, how it works in active combat. Would require extensive testing to give feedback on this one. But maybe, for THF characters for better AoE w/ strikethrough.

• Mist Walker
  • You have learned how to navigate the Mists with time and a little luck.
  • You gain Misty Step: As Abundant Step, but you disappear. +5 Reflex Save and 20% stacking incorporeality while Stepping. (Shares a cooldown with other abundant steps). 12 second cooldown.
  • When you use this Misty Step, there is a chance the Mists catch up with you and you gain Exhaustion for 6 seconds (-50% penalty to movement speed, -6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity, and cannot tumble). This exhaustion cannot be warded or removed by effects that remove Exhaustion.

This is the one I took and tested on Lamannia. For this one, I do think it's pretty nice and the best of the bunch just to have a low cooldown leap on builds without one - for those areas of the game where you need it for platforming sections. As for using it as a zerg tool, impossible to give feedback without knowing the exact percent is of being slowed but it was happening to me quite a bit on Lamannia.

• Touch of Death
  • Your every touch is pain, but you can use that to deliver death to enemies.
  • +3 Negative Spell Power per Character Level
  • +3 Negative Healing Amplification per Character Level
  • -5 Positive Spell Power per Character Level
  • -5 Positive Healing Amplification per Character Level

This one is extremely good for those wanting to exclusively solo on undead builds. Like improved fortification though it's a trap feat for new players and will result in lots of frustration in groups/raids since almost all party healers heal with positive. New players will take this only to later realize their character is broken for grouping. It's actually quite an anti-grouping feat, so make it a toggle instead so it can be turned off. I know you don't want neg effects bypassable but you essentially already are letting people bypass neg effects with the Mistwalker option.

• Form of Pain
  • Your body is cursed to be prone to all manner of damage, but with the ability to withstand it.
  • When you take damage your body changes and you gain the Form of Pain effect which grants +2 PRR/MRR but also reduces movement speed and increases spell costs by 1% as the pain distracts you. This can stack 10 times, with one stack being removed every 5 seconds.

Buff the PRR/MRR, double it atleast. Even on my raid tank I would never ever take this, -10% movement speed is not worth +20 PRR/MRR. The only builds I can see taking this are dedicated tanks, and even then it's not worth - mobility is important even for dedicated raid tanks. -10% speed = -10% XP essentially so nobody will ever take it on a leveling life either.

• Webtouched Wretch
  • You've become entwined with a great cosmic web, which occasionally becomes coterminous with reality.
  • Your offensive spells, mele and ranged attacks attacks occasionally cause strange spectral webs coat your enemies either slowing them or entangling them for up to six seconds with no save.
  • This does not work on bosses , raid bosses or oozes but will work on incorporable or fiery creatures which are normally immune to web include monsters or champs protected by freedom of movement.
  • When you get hit with Melee or Ranged attacks, there is a small chance the webs turn on you, applying a weakened slow effect which lasts 6 seconds but can stack 3 times. Spells/Immunities like Freedom of Movement do not prevent this.

Not worth it ever since majority of the most dangerous mobs will be immune, and there's plenty of other CC options in DDO without these drawbacks. Slow is really annoying. Can't see anyone ever taking this. Probably recommend just scrapping this one.

• Minion of the Eldritch
  • Your soul has touched something beyond the planes, and a connection has formed there.
  • Activate: You gain +5 Spell Power per Character Level, and +1% Spell Critical Damage for every 2 Character Levels you have for 12 seconds. 2 minute cooldown.
  • When you use this ability, there is a chance the Eldritch Being you reach out to will grow tired of your petitions and decide to punish you instead. This chance increases each time you use this ability between rests.
    • Punishment: Activate: You lose 3 Spell Power per Character Level, and 1% Spell Critical Damage for every 2 Character Levels you have for 30 seconds.

Again impossible to say, depending on % chance of the neg effect and math could be worth it. Depends on the math and actual uptime vs. downtime, which we don't know since % chance isn't disclosed.

 

[Phoenicis]

These suck, nobody will use them. Waste of dev hours that should have been spent nerfing crossbows.

nerfing anything Trolls use you mean?

 

[Stoner81]

Not impressed at all.

I will pick up the past life feats for the Iconic and the Race but that will be it.

Stoner81.

 

[Edrein]

Alright, since these are going to be exclusive to the Iconic Dhampir; how about some warlock themed bargains? Even if they aren't from Van Richten's guide, it may not hurt to go a bit off script and homebrew some for DDO's gameplay.

Hideous Blow: The dark powers have imbued your attacks with your Eldritch Blast forth a tithe of blood. You apply your Eldritch Blast damage to your melee and ranged attacks, ICD~ 1 sec. Whenever this effect procs you take your pact die in self damage. Scale both sides with spellpower. (This is effectively a throwback to the old Vicious effect, while bringing an few old 3.5e warlock features into DDO.)

Patron's Boon: The Dark Powers have amplified the gift of your patron at a deep cost. Gain an SLA version of your pact related spells. Lose one spell slots per spell level.

Eldritch Power: You exchange your Pact's protection for more power. Your Pact save bonus is now a mallus, granting you -2 save per stack. In exchange you gain +1 Eldritch Blast and +1 Pact die per stack. Additionally you no longer benefit from Paragon's Aegis but instead similarly suffer a cursed inversion reducing MMR by 5 each time you get the feat. (-10 saves and -25 MRR.)

 

[Abramax]

I really love the idea, it is great !

But in my opinion it should be avaible for everyone and not be a classic feat.
To be attractive, It should be a bonus feat we decide to take or not with favors or after finishing a quest.
And this iconic starting with it at lvl 1 is already an advantage if others can have it with favors at level X after completing the saga.

 

[Drunken.dx]

I'd argue Touch of Death is worth it, simply because you can ignore positive stuff. But yeah.
They're thematically cool, but mechanically unattractive.

That one and form of pain are only ones with any worth.

Rest have to big drawbacks to be viable.

 

[Nickodeamous]

Ok now that I know that this is specifically for Dark Bargainer iconic, then yeah, this is a cool special idea for that iconic. I used to play warlock alot, but there are better leveling builds for sure across the board. Regardless, cool idea, maybe tip the scales a bit in the "good effect" favor a bit more or provide us with percentages.

 

[Baahb3]

1. These feats exist only for Dark Bargainer as a bonus feat that is taken at character creation.

So let me get this straight. You are spending dev time creating, balancing and testing 7 different feats for a single Iconic class that can only take 1 of them. Slow clap for the genius behind that decision....

 

[Natashaelle]

As something of a guideline for balance discussions:

Dark Gifts in Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft (our p&p base for this feature) grant power with a heavy drawback or significant risk.

The idea is the same here - they should be significantly stronger than the average ML 1 feat, but if you're using it for its benefit, you must not be able to completely negate the risk or drawback.

They should be tempting, but not "the drawback is too bad to ever use" and definitely not "this is always worth taking because the risk/drawback is negligible".

Could there be some kind of "neutral" Dark Gift providing no benefit at all but some kind of in-game annoyance, like some sort of Misty whispering in the ear of awful secrets from the Lanterns event that you can't switch off ?

 

[Maetrim of Cannith]

1. These feats exist only for Dark Bargainer as a bonus feat that is taken at character creation.

ok, I will make sure the builder only supports these as a "Dark Gift" racial feat. I currently have them setup as an Exclusive (i.e. only 1 of them) feat that can also go in a standard or Human/PDK bonus feat slot.

 

[droid327]

P.S. This feedback reminds me of wild magic a bit and patience. I suggest people quickly try them out in client. Some of them are hard to evaluate from a forum post. We are shooting for a thematic feeling of you are getting a significant perk but every now and then you do feel like cursing the dark powers!

Wild Magic had mechanics to negate the drawbacks, which were largely trivial anyway

Patience we *knew the numbers* and could calculate the benefit, which was net positive for some and no-drawback for inqui at first

You're taking a permanent feat with a "small chance" to have a drawback that will potentially kill you in high tier content. There is no "quickly try them out". No one here will get a representative sample size in the short time you leave Lama open

There is only "too risky, don't know the numbers, ignore the system". Especially since, respectfully, you often don't seem to understand the ramifications of the numbers you choose and then hide from us: rarity of card cleansers, drop rates on MD rares, etc.

Please stop designing "by feel" and start designing by math.

 

[DBZ]

Wild magic a 7 point tax just not to die every single quest is not trivial

When a toggle would have sufficed for free

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

1. These feats exist only for Dark Bargainer as a bonus feat that is taken at character creation.

2. To make testing easier and to get around a temporary issue with the iconic setup we made them general feats for this build, but this is not how they'll ship.

Hence the confusion. Sorry!

-Torc

P.S. This feedback reminds me of wild magic a bit and patience. I suggest people quickly try them out in client. Some of them are hard to evaluate from a forum post. We are shooting for a thematic feeling of you are getting a significant perk but every now and then you do feel like cursing the dark powers!

P.P.S As some have already noted I think you'll find Mist Walker is your easy go to if you don't really wanna deal with that concept but otherwise want to play this warlock.

Funny you should mention Patience...

 

[Anurakh]

It's a bonus feat slot on the iconic for it and there's options to take that won't negatively effect us; so at the worst it does nothing at no regular feat slot costs.

I know. But choosing a feat that's never going to make me a profit leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. Especially considering I don't find the iconic attractive at all.

Well, cheaper, if it continues like this I'll save myself from buying the iconic.

 

[Anurakh]

P.S. This feedback reminds me of wild magic a bit and patience. I suggest people quickly try them out in client. Some of them are hard to evaluate from a forum post. We are shooting for a thematic feeling of you are getting a significant perk but every now and then you do feel like cursing the dark powers!

I hate patience. It's the kind of feat that, in my opinion, shouldn't exist. It's very easy to be tricked into taking it, and it actually hurts your DPS. Many players aren't experienced enough to determine when it's worth it or not.

And often, even if it can work, it's more of a meh, with doubts about whether it's actually worth, and with a decidedly unsmooth feel to the animations.

I hate, hate, hate these kinds of feats.

 

[FuzzyDuck81]

Echoing Soul seems like one of the 2 big risk/reward options, as that's a LOT of skill boost which could be really valuable for some builds, especially without lots of past lives & any kind of trapper in particular could get a lot of benefit. There's also things which have skill-based DCs on instakills (coup de grace, visage of terror) which will get a huge boost too, though 6 seconds of immobility can be a long time in some circumstances. Saying that, I'd probably enjoy it on my mastermaker arty since auto forcefields would help mitigate that a bit.

Living shadow - 15% less damage occasionally is noticeable but honestly not all that much to worry about so if a dark pact is mandatory, this means a little longer to kill bosses but hey, you can chase things down more easily so useful enough. A good option if you want to minimise negative impact but still get some useful positive effects.

Mist walker - the slowdown could be annoying for combat situations, especially if kiting, but for general out of combat mobility this is still a nice one to have for occasional use & if your build has some kind of abundant step or wings anyway then this is a perfect "gotta take something but wanna completely avoid negatives" option since you can just ignore it.

Touch of death - the second big high risk, high reward option. Far, far less of a trap than warforged's improved fortification. It's not hard to get into 200-300s negative healing amp already so this will push it into the 400-500s meaning even if you aren't casting the various negative energy spells, vampirism effects from deathly bite & bite attacks plus the darkhallow filligree set & scion of shadowfell too will mean you're getting a nice constant influx of regeneration while fighting. Kinda like the idea of this on an occult slayer barbarian with their vampiric bond to add as an extra damage shield & their high healing amp helping to offset the reduction from this.

Form of pain - could be good for a tank to boost defenses a little further while the negatives don't have as much effect. Overall not a hugely impactful one.

Webtouched wretch - need to see how bad the "weakened" slow effect is with multiple stacks, but adding the chance for irresistable CC to many things is really nice, I'm probably going to TR my blaster archmage into dhampir for this, he already stacks multiple proc effects with multi-projectile spells so it'll add to the fun.

Minion of the eldritch - a powerful action boost that occasionally debuffs instead, it's a nice boost but i'm already bad enough at making use of the 20sec ones, a 12sec one is even less likely to be used - if the durations of both positive and negative effects were boosted significantly (maybe 30sec positive & 60sec negative, or even 1min positive and 2mins negative) then it'd be used more and that gamble would also be a LOT more impactful. Still, another good option for the "i don't wanna deal with any negatives so i'll take this and then just ignore it" approach.