Raid Timer Bypass - Legendary or not

[vryxnr]

The item description in the store says CR 31+ is legendary, CR 30 and less is not. However, raids like Deathwyrm are CR 30 on normal but still require a legendary raid bypass to skip the timer.

"but that mistake costs players money, er, gives SSG more money!" that is called false advertising, and is not okay. Please fix!

(one of my guildies recently found this out the hard way. Losing those DDO points due to this was very frustrating)

 

[Chacka]

Initially, the policy stated that level 21+ is considered epic, and level 31+ is designated as legendary. However, for unknown reasons, a developer in DDO decided that level 20 is epic and later changed it so that level 30 is legendary. Despite the lack of coherence in this decision, the SSG developers seem unwilling to admit their mistake.

Moreover, the normal raid timer bypasses used to function in level 30 raids such as Mark of Death and Defiler of the Just, as indicated in the raid timer bypass descriptions. Strangely, this was altered, and now the descriptions are misleading.

It seems more likely that they would modify the descriptions rather than acknowledge their error.

It's disheartening, to say the least.

And, mind you, level 21 is, in the D&D universe, the first epic character level. Therefore, the opinion of the DDO developers regarding this matter is very peculiar. This can be read, for example, in this official D&D handbook for epic characters on page 4.


What's even more disheartening is that I was once banned from the old forum for telling a developer that they were making a mistake, as it was deemed a 'personal attack' to criticize a developer for their errors.
And to emphasize, I presented the fact in a purely factual manner and was not in any way offensive.

 

[Silverfox]

Initially, the policy stated that level 21+ is considered epic, and level 31+ is designated as legendary. However, for unknown reasons, a developer in DDO decided that level 20 is epic and later changed it so that level 30 is legendary. Despite the lack of coherence in this decision, the SSG developers seem unwilling to admit their mistake.

Moreover, the normal raid timer bypasses used to function in level 30 raids such as Mark of Death and Defiler of the Just, as indicated in the raid timer bypass descriptions. Strangely, this was altered, and now the descriptions are misleading.

It seems more likely that they would modify the descriptions rather than acknowledge their error.

It's disheartening, to say the least.

And, mind you, level 21 is, in the D&D universe, the first epic character level. Therefore, the opinion of the DDO developers regarding this matter is very peculiar. This can be read, for example, in this official D&D handbook for epic characters on page 4.


What's even more disheartening is that I was once banned from the old forum for telling a developer that they were making a mistake, as it was deemed a 'personal attack' to criticize a developer for their errors.
And to emphasize, I presented the fact in a purely factual manner and was not in any way offensive.

It seems pretty clear that SSG has made a decision long ago on this topic and yet you continue to bring it up over and over again.

Community rules clearly states :

Don't bring up old arguments in unrelated threads. You and someone else got into a 13-page dispute over whether shields should have handles, and will never agree on anything ever again because of it. You and the other person (or people) should stop responding to each other, at least for the time being. Regardless of how you choose to proceed, we don't want the topic brought up again and again in threads that have nothing to do with whether shields should have handles.

Your 3 year old thread is dead for a reason :

https://forums-old.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/513629-In-Dungeons-amp-Dragons-level-20-is-still-a-heroic-character-level?highlight=

Most of us playing DDO understand we are not playing D&D

 

[festasha]

It seems pretty clear that SSG has made a decision long ago on this topic and yet you continue to bring it up over and over again.

Community rules clearly states :

Don't bring up old arguments in unrelated threads. You and someone else got into a 13-page dispute over whether shields should have handles, and will never agree on anything ever again because of it. You and the other person (or people) should stop responding to each other, at least for the time being. Regardless of how you choose to proceed, we don't want the topic brought up again and again in threads that have nothing to do with whether shields should have handles.

Your 3 year old thread is dead for a reason :

https://forums-old.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/513629-In-Dungeons-amp-Dragons-level-20-is-still-a-heroic-character-level?highlight=

Most of us playing DDO understand we are not playing D&D

Even if this was mentioned in the old forums, this is the new forum and many new players have joined since.
I never actually followed the old forums intently enough to have seen this old thread and I'm pleased it has been highlighted so others don't make the same mistake.
It's obvious the simple job of changing a few lines of text in the store and the item description would help someone not make the same mistake again.

 

[Chacka]

It seems pretty clear that SSG has made a decision long ago on this topic and yet you continue to bring it up over and over again.

Community rules clearly states :

Don't bring up old arguments in unrelated threads. You and someone else got into a 13-page dispute over whether shields should have handles, and will never agree on anything ever again because of it. You and the other person (or people) should stop responding to each other, at least for the time being. Regardless of how you choose to proceed, we don't want the topic brought up again and again in threads that have nothing to do with whether shields should have handles.

Your 3 year old thread is dead for a reason :

https://forums-old.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/513629-In-Dungeons-amp-Dragons-level-20-is-still-a-heroic-character-level?highlight=

Most of us playing DDO understand we are not playing D&D

I only react to a post from someone else if the topic is still relevant and my argument is obviously related to this thread.

At least the rule has been dropped on normal servers, and there is no longer a special rule that designates a level 20 character as epic.

So, my main demand has been fulfilled, and perhaps I contributed with my persistence to this correct decision. I applaud the developers.

However, we still have that rule on hardcore servers, from casual to reaper difficulty, which leads to several disadvantages for players. Therefore, the mission is not fully accomplished.

The rule that level 30 is considered legendary also doesn't make much logical sense, even if the term 'legendary' seems not to exist in D&D. In my opinion, the effective level should be the determining factor. If this effective level is 31 or higher, the quest should be considered legendary. Regarding raid timer bypasses, the normal level of the raid should determine whether you can use it. Therefore, for raid timer bypasses, a normal raid level at 30 and below means the raid is not 'legendary,' and you can use the normal bypass, exactly as currently described in the DDO Shop.

My impression is that SSG wants to adhere closely to the D&D rules, so it is a weak excuse to say that DDO doesn't have to follow D&D, especially when the rule in D&D is very logical and the DDO rule is not. (we have 20 class levels and thereafter the epic levels of a character start)

I would be the last person to insist on a more logical rule in DDO just because there is a nonsensical rule in D&D!

 

[Chacka]

Even if this was mentioned in the old forums, this is the new forum and many new players have joined since.
I never actually followed the old forums intently enough to have seen this old thread and I'm pleased it has been highlighted so others don't make the same mistake.
It's obvious the simple job of changing a few lines of text in the store and the item description would help someone not make the same mistake again.

Just in case you don't know this too...

Not too long ago, normal raid timer bypasses worked on level 30 and below raids, and this was not an accident. It simply followed the logical policy that SSG developers once had, stating that legendary levels and raids start at level 31+.

The best reference I can find on a quick search is a statement from Cordovan you can find on DDO WIKI: 'Update 29 introduces Legendary raiding to DDO, which comprises new raids that are CR31+. For Legendary raids, players will be able to bypass the three-day raid timer through the use of a Legendary Raid Timer Bypass, available in Silver and Gold Daily Dice, as a rare chest drop, and in the DDO Store. Non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses will maintain their current functionality in non-Legendary raids, and we will not be adjusting their ability to be used consecutively.

 

[axel15810]

The DDO store really should just list in the description for each bypass timer which raids specifically are covered with each. Just to clear up confusion. As someone who raids all the time this is a regular point of confusion, particularly when it comes to MoD and Thunderholme raids so if a marketing person would take 5 minutes to update the store description it would be well their time.

For the non-legendary timer, description in the store should say "This item can be used only for the following raids: (list all non-legendary raids here, except heroic TS since that one has no timer)."

For the legendary timer, description in the store should say "This item CANNOT BE USED for following raids: (list the same raids here as above)." You could also just directly list all legendary raids it applies to but if you do that you'd have to remember to update the description every time a new raid is added.

 

[Eoin]

1 raid bypass timer to rule them all. Keep It Simple SSG.

 

[Chacka]

The DDO store really should just list in the description for each bypass timer which raids specifically are covered with each. Just to clear up confusion. As someone who raids all the time this is a regular point of confusion, particularly when it comes to MoD and Thunderholme raids so if a marketing person would take 5 minutes to update the store description it would be well their time.

For the non-legendary timer, description in the store should say "This item can be used only for the following raids: (list all non-legendary raids here, except heroic TS since that one has no timer)."

For the legendary timer, description in the store should say "This item CANNOT BE USED for following raids: (list the same raids here as above)." You could also just directly list all legendary raids it applies to but if you do that you'd have to remember to update the description every time a new raid is added.

In my opinion, the description in the DDO Store is very clear and easy to understand. The only thing that is unclear is that SSG (Standing Stone Games) at some point restricted the actual functionality of regular raid bypass timers, as far as I know, without informing the players about it. The only thing SSG should change is to restore the condition introduced after Update 29.
And this means it should work exactly like it is described in the DDO Store!

 

[axel15810]

1 raid bypass timer to rule them all. Keep It Simple SSG.

In my opinion, the description in the DDO Store is very clear and easy to understand. The only thing that is unclear is that SSG (Standing Stone Games) at some point restricted the actual functionality of regular raid bypass timers, as far as I know, without informing the players about it. The only thing SSG should change is to restore the condition introduced after Update 29.
And this means it should work exactly like it is described in the DDO Store!

At the time, it was pretty obvious they introduced a second one because of things that happened around the time of Thunderholme's release - which I cannot discuss because I think doing so may violate the forum rules.

I don't know what the description was originally, but the non-legendary timers weren't nerfed retroactively back then. Only for raids that had yet to be released. So the functionality was never restricted - unless you bought them with future raids in mind. It's been 8 years since the 2nd tier of them was introduced so who knows what the original description was for the non-legendary ones but I guess you'd have an argument if that description said they would be for all raids ever or something to that effect.

I don't use timer bypasses hardly ever b/c I have several characters at cap so I just switch if on timer but yeah if they have since not allowed the regular ones for raids that used to allow them I can see that understandably irk'ing some people.

 

[Chacka]

At the time, it was pretty obvious they introduced a second one because of things that happened around the time of Thunderholme's release - which I cannot discuss because I think doing so may violate the forum rules.

I don't know what the description was originally, but the non-legendary timers weren't nerfed retroactively back then. Only for raids that had yet to be released. So the functionality was never restricted - unless you bought them with future raids in mind. It's been 8 years since the 2nd tier of them was introduced so who knows what the original description was for the non-legendary ones but I guess you'd have an argument if that description said they would be for all raids ever or something to that effect.

I don't use timer bypasses hardly ever b/c I have several characters at cap so I just switch if on timer but yeah if they have since not allowed the regular ones for raids that used to allow them I can see that understandably irk'ing some people.

As stated in Cordovan's statement, which you can find here, the new legendary raid timer bypass hourglasses initially worked for raids of level 31 and above, while the old (normal) raid timer bypass hourglasses were designed for raids of level 30 and below, in line with the information provided by the DDO Store.

However, at some unknown point after U55, this system was altered, and now the normal raid timer bypass hourglasses function for raids of level 29 and below only and the newer legendary for 30 and above.

Therefore, the non-legendary timers were retroactively nerfed, contrary to your claim.

Upon reading the statement here, it becomes apparent why the legendary raid timer bypass hourglasses where introduced. The goal was to maintain the complete functionality of the old raid timer bypass hourglasses. The legendary version was introduced exclusively for legendary raids (level 31+) with Update 29.

For some unknown reason, the policy shifted after the developers announced that level 30 is now considered legendary, coinciding with the introduction of the new 31 and 32 legendary character levels.

It's worth noting that when obtaining character levels from the epic trainer, he grants epic levels from level 21 to 30. If you aim for levels 31 and 32, he informs you that he now provides legendary levels, a logical and consistent progression.
(by the way this fact also confirms by logic that lvl 1-20 are class levels or "heroic" if you want and lvl 21-30 are epic character levels)

The perplexity arises from the fact that SSG developers categorize level 30 quests as legendary.

And just to mention it, do you consider that it is entirely possible that I'm correct, even though I'm "only" a player, and the developers might be making a mistake here? I have the slight impression that some players believe authority holds more weight than logic and evidence.

 

[axel15810]

As stated in Cordovan's statement, which you can find here, the new legendary raid timer bypass hourglasses initially worked for raids of level 31 and above, while the old (normal) raid timer bypass hourglasses were designed for raids of level 30 and below, in line with the information provided by the DDO Store.

However, at some unknown point after U55, this system was altered, and now the normal raid timer bypass hourglasses function for raids of level 29 and below only and the newer legendary for 30 and above.

Therefore, the non-legendary timers were retroactively nerfed, contrary to your claim.

Upon reading the statement here, it becomes apparent why the legendary raid timer bypass hourglasses where introduced. The goal was to maintain the complete functionality of the old raid timer bypass hourglasses. The legendary version was introduced exclusively for legendary raids (level 31+) with Update 29.

For some unknown reason, the policy shifted after the developers announced that level 30 is now considered legendary, coinciding with the introduction of the new 31 and 32 legendary character levels.

It's worth noting that when obtaining character levels from the epic trainer, he grants epic levels from level 21 to 30. If you aim for levels 31 and 32, he informs you that he now provides legendary levels, a logical and consistent progression.
(by the way this fact also confirms by logic that lvl 1-20 are class levels or "heroic" if you want and lvl 21-30 are epic character levels)

The perplexity arises from the fact that SSG developers categorize level 30 quests as legendary.

And just to mention it, do you consider that it is entirely possible that I'm correct, even though I'm "only" a player, and the developers might be making a mistake here? I have the slight impression that some players believe authority holds more weight than logic and evidence.

OK, was not aware of a change in U55. If the non-legendary timers worked for certain level 30 raids in U54 then stopped functioning for them in U55 or thereabouts then I agree they should revert it back to how it worked as of U54.

 

[AustrianDeathMachine]

It was when they changed the legendary quest XP from level 31 quests to level 30 quests. It made all level 30 content legendary so people level 30+ could get XP for those quests.
They became legendary quests and therefor needed a legendary bypass.

 

[Chacka]

It was when they changed the legendary quest XP from level 31 quests to level 30 quests. It made all level 30 content legendary so people level 30+ could get XP for those quests.
They became legendary quests and therefor needed a legendary bypass.

Possible that this was changed at the time when they declared nominal level 30 quests as legendary, but it is implausible that the change to the raid timer bypass hourglasses was accidental.

But one thing is certain: SSG (Cordovan) promised that the historic (normal) raid timer bypass hourglasses will work on all nominal level 30 and below raids, and this was most likely an intended retroactive nerf of this item.
And at least I think this nerf was not OK.

Another part of the story is still that SSG had once the consistent logic that level 30 is epic and level 31 is the first legendary level, and they changed that rule for quests and raids for no reason.

At least in some aspects in DDO, the rule that levels 1-20 are heroic, levels 21-30 are epic, and level 31+ is legendary is still alive. For example, at the class trainer and the epic trainer/Fatespinner.

 

[Lazuli]

Yes, there was a ninja nerf of normal bypasses a while ago. They had been working correctly on raids as a MOD and suddenly one day they stopped working. There was no warning in the release notes.

I realized it when I used a raid bypass for MOD and saw that it didn't work although it had been working until recently. I got quite angry and wrote a ticket. They returned the used bypass to me, but it still seems like an abusive and inappropriate ninja nerf.

MOD does not have a legendary loot. It is NOT a legendary raid. It is an abuse and a scam, to force us to buy legendary bypasses.

 

[Shear-buckler]

1 raid bypass timer to rule them all. Keep It Simple SSG.

The game was flooded with duped ones so they created to legendary timers to bump sales.

 

[Notadrizztvariant]

I only react to a post from someone else if the topic is still relevant and my argument is obviously related to this thread.

At least the rule has been dropped on normal servers, and there is no longer a special rule that designates a level 20 character as epic.

So, my main demand has been fulfilled, and perhaps I contributed with my persistence to this correct decision. I applaud the developers.

However, we still have that rule on hardcore servers, from casual to reaper difficulty, which leads to several disadvantages for players. Therefore, the mission is not fully accomplished.

The rule that level 30 is considered legendary also doesn't make much logical sense, even if the term 'legendary' seems not to exist in D&D. In my opinion, the effective level should be the determining factor. If this effective level is 31 or higher, the quest should be considered legendary. Regarding raid timer bypasses, the normal level of the raid should determine whether you can use it. Therefore, for raid timer bypasses, a normal raid level at 30 and below means the raid is not 'legendary,' and you can use the normal bypass, exactly as currently described in the DDO Shop.

My impression is that SSG wants to adhere closely to the D&D rules, so it is a weak excuse to say that DDO doesn't have to follow D&D, especially when the rule in D&D is very logical and the DDO rule is not. (we have 20 class levels and thereafter the epic levels of a character start)

I would be the last person to insist on a more logical rule in DDO just because there is a nonsensical rule in D&D!

no, you hijacked this thread for this weird pet peeve of yours, one that apparently got you banned on the old forum and possibly will do again so here. A strange hill to die on, but to each their own...

 

[Chacka]

no, you hijacked this thread for this weird pet peeve of yours, one that apparently got you banned on the old forum and possibly will do again so here. A strange hill to die on, but to each their own...

Not to mention that this forum rule you quoted is very questionable. Because why should you not be allowed to bring up a topic again if you know you are right? And I'm actually convinced that I'm 100% right here.

Anyway, this thread is about the retroactive nerf of the old raid timer bypasses, even though SSG explicitly promised they would not do that. I am only adding an additional reason why this is wrong for nominal level 30 raids because it's simply not logical to consider such raids as legendary!

My main argumentation is against that retroactive nerf, so I don't see your point as valid.

My suggestion to solve that problem for legendary content is also very simple: if the effective level of a quest is 31+, the quest should provide legendary characters (lvl 31+) with both reaper and legendary experience.

This means, for example, if you complete a nominal level 29+ quest on elite or reaper (where the effective level is 31+ because the normal level +2), it would be treated as legendary quest, and you would receive both reaper and legendary experience.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Not to mention that this forum rule you quoted is very questionable. Because why should you not be allowed to bring up a topic again if you know you are right? And I'm actually convinced that I'm 100% right here.

You have an opinion. It's not right or wrong.

 

[Chacka]

You have an opinion. It's not right or wrong.

On some matters, there is enough evidence that allows one to assert something as right or wrong, and it ceases to be a mere opinion. Otherwise, there would be no use for words like 'right,' 'wrong,' 'truth,' or 'reality.'

As the most straightforward example, consider whether it is an opinion that 1+1 equals 2.

For me, the logic that we have 20 heroic class levels (1-20), followed by 10 epic levels (21-30), and thereafter legendary levels (31+), is simple logic and mathematically sound!