Reaper rework

[Pano]

During Friday’s stream, Tolero mentioned that the team is working on some Reaper changes. If those changes involve rebalancing difficulty, I’d like to suggest a shift in approach for high Reaper levels.

Right now, difficulty scaling often boils down to “you deal 10% damage while mobs deal 1000% damage”, which feels more like a boring numbers game than an engaging challenge. Instead of simply inflating stats, why not introduce more strategic mechanics, reapers, and champions?

Here are a few ideas:

• Increased Enemy Spell DCs – Make mobs cast spells with higher DCs rather than just giving them absurd saves.
• Enemy Crowd Control – Encourage enemies to use more CC effects intelligently rather than just hitting harder.
• New Interesting Reapers - I love (read hate) the design of Vengance reaper, make some more interesting reapers and champions. Not just 'This champions has an unsavable DoT'
• Tactical Enemy Groups – Design mob packs with healers, buffers, and debuffers, similar to the setup in Pilgrim’s Peril.

This would make high Reaper play more about strategy, teamwork, and game knowledge rather than just having the best build and gear. It also aligns with the recent push for catch-up mechanics, helping newer players feel more engaged, if the number of past lives and gear would not be the main factor anymore.

EDITS - more ideas:

• fully invisible enemies that can be only manually targeted?
• enemies with life steal ability?
• cap the current reaper scaling on R7/8ish if implementing new interesting mecahnics?

 

[Vox]

Love these ideas! I would be so down for this. Bloated stats alone don't make for an interesting enough challenge. Dynamism within dungeons- and from mobs- certainly will!

I was also a bit disconcerted by Tolero suggesting they are looking to do things differently, than they did with the Illithid Invasion stuff. Personally, I think that is some of the most engaging content they have done in recent times, in every sense of the word.

I understand wanting game events to be wide-reaching, so that everyone can participate. I'm all for inclusivity and options. In fact: grouping with new players, and playing at their pace, is one of the most enjoyable things for me. Furthermore, I am a fairly casual player myself. But I still think content that pushes the envelope, and challenges people with having to come up with new approaches, different builds, and tighter coordination- is vitally important.

The Illithid invasion did just that- as I'm sure many can testify.

The illithid event that was over for each quest in hours and excluded most of the playerbase from participating?

 

[Frisson]

The illithid event that was over for each quest in hours and excluded most of the playerbase from participating?

Sorry, I meant the extreme challenge dungeons themselves. The event, as a whole, could have been better for sure. But I liked that they were trying something different.

I guess l am concerned that they might be shying away from trying new things, or from developing similar dungeons.

 

[Lagin3]

Just remove the enhancement trees. That will make a legit difficulty setting. As it stands, any sane DM would never reward you for adding hit die etc...

 

[Rajac]

During Friday’s stream, Tolero mentioned that the team is working on some Reaper changes. If those changes involve rebalancing difficulty, I’d like to suggest a shift in approach for high Reaper levels.

Right now, difficulty scaling often boils down to “you deal 10% damage while mobs deal 1000% damage”, which feels more like a boring numbers game than an engaging challenge. Instead of simply inflating stats, why not introduce more strategic mechanics, reapers, and champions?

Here are a few ideas:

• Increased Enemy Spell DCs – Make mobs cast spells with higher DCs rather than just giving them absurd saves.
• Enemy Crowd Control – Encourage enemies to use more CC effects intelligently rather than just hitting harder.
• New Interesting Reapers - I love (read hate) the design of Vengance reaper, make some more interesting reapers and champions. Not just 'This champions has an unsavable DoT'
• Tactical Enemy Groups – Design mob packs with healers, buffers, and debuffers, similar to the setup in Pilgrim’s Peril.

This would make high Reaper play more about strategy, teamwork, and game knowledge rather than just having the best build and gear. It also aligns with the recent push for catch-up mechanics, helping newer players feel more engaged, if the number of past lives and gear would not be the main factor anymore.

EDITS - more ideas:

• fully invisible enemies that can be only manually targeted?
• enemies with life steal ability?
• cap the current reaper scaling on R7/8ish if implementing new interesting mecahnics?

I like the tactical enemy groups and the new reapers, but most of the other ideas don’t sit well with me. The thing is, these changes could make the game both more fun and a lot less fun, depending on the quest type (like those insanely hard legendary quests in Sharn) and the level (heroic/epic/legendary). Maybe a slightly more complex system (not too much) that varies by type and level would work better.

Crowd Control is already a pain in the ass for tanks in this game. If you’re up against 3+ reapers, you only need to get hit once while got 1 in the dice to feel the full brunt of it, so I really wouldn’t want any changes to this already risky mechanic.

As for spell DCs, they could be reasonable, but if the goal is to make a difference for endgame players, the way this could scalete is what freaks me out. So yeah, it’s a no from me on that too, as I enjoy low level leveling in reaper 5+ mode.

+Deflect BOLTS would be a nice buff for all monsters in reaper mode.
Or maybe a instant teleport for the reapers that got hit by then.
OR a exclusive Reaper Killer of Inquisitives. Should be called The Judge, with his minions called Scales of Justice.

 

[Blerkington]

Just remove the enhancement trees. That will make a legit difficulty setting. As it stands, any sane DM would never reward you for adding hit die etc...

This is not a good idea.

Taking away a progression system in which people have invested a lot of time and possibly money too is just not an option. You might as well argue that past life feats should be removed too, because they are also making the game too easy.

It's a difficult issue because there are people still working at capping their reaper trees and suddenly making things harder for them than it was for those who are already capped isn't very fair. That being said, there is definitely an issue with six person content being too easy on r10 even for competent players, not just for the game's stars.

Given these constraints I'm not sure what the solution is. But taking away something in which players have invested a lot of work, or suddenly making it much harder for newer players to progress, are both unacceptable choices.

 

[Lagin3]

This is not a good idea.

Taking away a progression system in which people have invested a lot of time and possibly money too is just not an option. You might as well argue that past life feats should be removed too, because they are also making the game too easy.

It's a difficult issue because there are people still working at capping their reaper trees and suddenly making things harder for them than it was for those who are already capped isn't very fair. That being said, there is definitely an issue with six person content being too easy on r10 even for competent players, not just for the game's stars.

Given these constraints I'm not sure what the solution is. But taking away something in which players have invested a lot of work, or suddenly making it much harder for newer players to progress, are both unacceptable choices.

this is the reply of someone that's made that heavy investment. I get it. you spent all that time and money to get what? A pair of wings? Im not saying to take that away. Just the useless enhancement trees. You don't make things more difficult by giving you more power. Show me any example of that in any other game.
Defend your position all you like, you're dead wrong

 

[Shear-buckler]

this is the reply of someone that's made that heavy investment. I get it. you spent all that time and money to get what? A pair of wings? Im not saying to take that away. Just the useless enhancement trees. You don't make things more difficult by giving you more power. Show me any example of that in any other game.
Defend your position all you like, you're dead wrong

Better rewards from higher difficulties is standard practice.

 

[Dielzen]

this is the reply of someone that's made that heavy investment. I get it. you spent all that time and money to get what? A pair of wings? Im not saying to take that away. Just the useless enhancement trees. You don't make things more difficult by giving you more power. Show me any example of that in any other game.
Defend your position all you like, you're dead wrong

Your stance that r10 is easier with max reaper trees than Elite w/o them?

Interesting

 

[mikarddo]

Dont remove trees obviously. Just reduce the hp for each point to 2 hp in tank tree and 1 hp in other trees.

 

[Sol]

imo, Reapers should be designed based off of players instead of just ghost with mechanic.

I think they need a total overhaul as they're only really a threat if one randomly pops into existence and snaps onto someone it can 1 tap. Or if it's the early game and you don't have ghost touch.

Make a tank reaper that redirects damage onto it, or debuffs players by a large amount of damage until it's dead. Design a few of them so they have attacks themed after player classes, like one version can smite you like a paladin, another has great tactics DCs and tries to fight like a dragon lord, and another could be themed after enlightened spirit warlock.

Make a bard reaper that is constantly buffing and healing all the enemies, occasionally casting crowd control, and maybe even using Coup De Grace if it gets into melee with something that's CCed.

Reaper mode is so sick but it's mostly just stat bloat. Gotta add some fresh mechanics and new rules. It's a chance to make every run of a quest a little unique, not just... the same quest but bloated.

And honestly, the reaper trees are a little insane. I find it funny that Elite is easier than Reaper once you have a few reaper points, I feel like that shouldn't be the case. The fact that Reaper trees are just passive numbers instead of something more diegetic and active to the whole reaper experience is something that's always urked me.

Give us some clickies, SLAs, unique tactics buttons, or other effects and not just "Number go up" or "Expend Reaper Charge, number go up", and give us trees to let us expand our builds with new options while specifically in reaper content.

 

[Lagin3]

I'll say this one last time, you don't reward a difficulty setting with more power creep. I play reaper without spending any reaper points. Guess what? Even the heavy reaper players die just as fast as I do.

 

[Shear-buckler]

I'll say this one last time, you don't reward a difficulty setting with more power creep.

What are you talking about? Rewarding higher difficulty settings with better rewards is standard procedure for progression based games.

 

[Blerkington]

this is the reply of someone that's made that heavy investment. I get it. you spent all that time and money to get what? A pair of wings? Im not saying to take that away. Just the useless enhancement trees. You don't make things more difficult by giving you more power. Show me any example of that in any other game.
Defend your position all you like, you're dead wrong

My main's reaper trees were capped years ago, but I don't wear my wings and didn't spend any money doing it. However, other people do and have.

Your reply shows a real lack of empathy for people who care about the time and money they spent working towards those achievements and quite frankly I don't think your opinion has any value since making those changes wouldn't affect you. All you are doing is showing you are willing to give away something of value belonging to someone else, not making a serious attempt at solving this problem for everyone.

I notice you haven't addressed the issue of power creep from past lives. Which is simply another form of progression, that adds considerably more power than the reaper trees do. If we really wanted a more difficult game we should be looking there first, right? And none of your characters have any past lives because you think it erodes challenges, right? Let's see if you can explain to us how these two forms of progress are different, and why one should be protected and the other scrapped.

My best guess for a solution to this issue would be to add difficulties above r10 that have additional mechanics increasing difficulty like those found in the card challenge quests. They don't need to give any more rxp than r10 and any rewards should be cosmetic only. That way we have additional challenge for those who want it, don't take away something people have earnt, and we don't pull the ladder up on people who are still down below working their way through the reaper progression system. Something like that should make everyone happy, possibly except for the community's sociopaths.

 

[noinfoavailable]

Just remove the enhancement trees. That will make a legit difficulty setting. As it stands, any sane DM would never reward you for adding hit die etc...

Fancy being rewarded for actually playing on the highest difficulty or at end game! Though to be honest I would agree with removing the reaper trees as long as they also removed the most anti dnd thing ever TR ETR and those hampster wheels they like to add. Or keep them but get rid of all the benefits.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

I'll say this one last time, you don't reward a difficulty setting with more power creep. I play reaper without spending any reaper points. Guess what? Even the heavy reaper players die just as fast as I do.

That's because the reaper trees are almost entirely irrelevant. Fully maxed out reaper points only compensate for the difficulty between Elite and R2 at best. R10 is brain dead easy because of broken builds, over inflated gear stats, and brain dead monsters with broken AI and no hp.

 

[Lagin3]

What are you talking about? Rewarding higher difficulty settings with better rewards is standard procedure for progression based games.

I'm talking about enhancement trees. Name a game that offers those included with a difficulty setting.

I have been opposed to those trees since reaper was introduced. I am not against the players enjoying it. Especially if it keeps people paying

 

[Shear-buckler]

I'm talking about enhancement trees. Name a game that offers those included with a difficulty setting.

I have been opposed to those trees since reaper was introduced. I am not against the players enjoying it. Especially if it keeps people paying

So what is the problem with the reaper trees that is not related to concept of "rewarding the highest difficulty setting with the most powerful progression"?

 

[DBZ]

Re invented wheels never seem to get better

 

[Synalon]

New reaper types would be a great start. Somehow, there are no divine caster reapers yet! We could have a standard reaper like a Famine but divine. An orange-named like a Vengeance with unique mechanics. And a red-named that casts the most dangerous spells of all types. While we're at it, Dooms really need a buff.

When they last introduced new reaper types, it was a resounding success. Vengeances in particular forced you to play strategically. Now everything dies so quickly it is barely important. I would be stoked for new reapers!

I also support nerfing damage in r10 to magic-levels across the board. And maybe flattening the curve so it's linear from r1 to r10, rather than r7+...? But either way, I know this would be deeply unpopular, so

 

[woq]

How many people run illithid invasion on high reaps each life?

I do, they're the most fun quests in the game.