Reaper tree Revamp

[Dulkhan]

First, I would like to say that I rather keep how reapers works know, it allows better customization for our characters for ppl without 150 or more reapers points.

With that first statement out of the way, I would like to talk about what Sev have been hinting this year the changes to how reapers bonus is going to work coming the revamp of the system.

So, if I got this right, what he proposes is that there is going to be just one tree that will give you certain kind of bonuses related to how much reaper exp you have, the idea behind this is to allow veterans to share some of that power to newer players by giving them a fraction of the power of the party leader if theirs is lower than that. As a returner player myself I see the value of this, since when I got back the reaper system was well underway and i got 0 reaper points, so it was kind of painful to try to play endgame content. and this system this idea is not compatible with how reaper tree is right now. So, we are in a situation where we are sacrificing flexibility for availability for new players. But I would like to add a middle point. What if we allow players to choose a reaper path So you got your tank, reaper path, your melee path, range path, hybrid path ( for EDK for example) and other paths that are fixed in what they provide but are still giving a choice as to what you can get from your reaper points. This would add the value of giving devs some room to add more "reaper paths" in the future or balance them easily too. while giving us some choice back.
So how does this work in the game? well your first level ( and class) define your predefined "reaper path" so in case you don't choose one yourself the game will still provide you with whatever path it's better for your basic class role. And then you can go to the reaper windows and choose another path, this can be done 1 time for free each life and with platinum after with or other form of restriction if needed. You can even put a description of each tree or show what bonus you get at certain thresholds.
I hope we can have a good discussion about this that doesn't go around "don't change reapers trees" because that's a different conversation.

 

[Pandjed]

This sounds like a rather doable thing, which would allow for some choice and direct control for the player, instead of getting bonuses you won't use anyway. Question would be, how much room would be there to grow the system from what it currently does, as a force spread would always lead to liking more Reaper Points to get all the bonuses needed.

Great idea in concept, though in execution it's a question how many options are there and therefore how well they fit the different builds.

 

[jotmon]

~snip~
I hope we can have a good discussion about this that doesn't go around "don't change reapers trees" because that's a different conversation.

"don't change reapers trees"

Reaper points are not community points, they are self earned, we don't share HP or Mana either.

Limiting tree path is stupid, this is a game that allows for versatility of builds and playstyle.. points already limit path options until more points are earned.


I have spent thousands of hours farming reaper points
along with DDO store funding real money for xp pots and other goodies to perform better just for reaper content.
Any negative impact on my investment for reaper will make me very unhappy and I believe many other invested players as well.

Do they really want to pxxx on the players that invested money to develop their toons to be the best that they can be to challenge the most difficult content.

I think if they want to help new players, then the focus should be on things to help newb players play content appropriate to their experience and capabilities and group with players of similar capabilities.

 

[Equatis]

I can see possibilities here in the OP's suggestion, and the way I'd go about it would be to have 3 individual trees like the current ED's have and let players choose what three trees to use, then people like Jotman could keep the trees they have built on to create the epic bonuses they have or choose to replace an individual tree as they see fit, while someone like me could also get reaper tree bonuses that best suit my own character, class and playstyle. Do the current offensive, caster, and defensive trees and then specific trees for those who want to increase their character builds specialist reaper power at the expense of one or more of the original trees. Allow players to have more choice in how their character uses their reaper points.

 

[Dulkhan]

I can see possibilities here in the OP's suggestion, and the way I'd go about it would be to have 3 individual trees like the current ED's have and let players choose what three trees to use, then people like Jotman could keep the trees they have built on to create the epic bonuses they have or choose to replace an individual tree as they see fit, while someone like me could also get reaper tree bonuses that best suit my own character, class and playstyle. Do the current offensive, caster, and defensive trees and then specific trees for those who want to increase their character builds specialist reaper power at the expense of one or more of the original trees. Allow players to have more choice in how their character uses their reaper points.

Problem is that with a system that share the progress of the party leader there is no way to give the same amount of choice that the current system have. that by the way is in desperate need of a revamp anyway, its kind of boring and I see a lot of players that already have all the tree filled.

 

[Equatis]

My thoughts may be more in line with a revamp of the current system

 

[Dulkhan]

My thoughts may be more in line with a revamp of the current system

I'm with you that we need a different revamp, but the thing is that this is suggestion based on Sevelin talks about the coming changes

 

[Bjond]

Limiting tree path is stupid, this is a game that allows for versatility of builds and playstyle.. points already limit path options until more points are earned.

This in spades. SSG has a horrifically bad track record for any suggested "path". Whatever they do will be incredibly wrong. Basing a path on L1 is also bad. Iconics almost never follow their L1 archetype; that class is usually a complete discard, probably because they're hardly "iconic", but rather weird displays of perverse class+race choices.

Same thing with most of my non-iconic builds: L1 is for the trapper level, which offers the most skill points.

allow veterans to share some of that power to newer players by giving them a fraction of the power of the party leader

General sharing concept is good, party leader as the source is horrifically bad. Just because you have a lot of RXP doesn't mean you want to lead the group and thus have to deal with the ugly LFM interface. Nor should you feel obligated to be the lead just because you do have a ton of RXP.

It would be just as easy to use the highest RXP in group as it would be to use the leader. However, if the new "tree" can be tuned to specific builds, the leader or the highest might both be wildly inappropriate picks for the entire group, too.

My own feeling, is that RXP is the very last thing that needs a "catchup" mechanic for newbies. It doesn't even take one life to hit 21 Reaper points. I think my fresh newbie alt-account buff-bard has 30'ish. The most critical reaper points are nearly instantly attainable. It does help to have lots, but the difference between a few and tons is pretty small in overall effect.

The first thing that should be on that list is Racial PLs, not RXP. IMHO, VIP should include full Racial PLs except for those related to the most recently added race; ie. if you want the "completionist" cap, you still have to always run those 3 lives as VIP, but if you just want the extra build freedom, you've got that by default.

That build freedom is the single biggest separator between high-end vets and newbies. Having such a large catchup in place aligns DDO with all the other MMOs out there that more or less have a "buy the latest expansion = get all the rest" attitude. Most of those include major catchups for new chars, such as starting at the level cap as it was in the last expansion.

 

[Svirfneblin]

With one exception I like the reaper trees as-is. That exception is, both melee and ranged are in the Combat tree. Split them out into separate trees, and fill in the blanks with something useful for the combat style. Yes, add a 4th tree.

 

[ForeverZero]

"don't change reapers trees"

Reaper points are not community points, they are self earned, we don't share HP or Mana either.

Limiting tree path is stupid, this is a game that allows for versatility of builds and playstyle.. points already limit path options until more points are earned.


I have spent thousands of hours farming reaper points
along with DDO store funding real money for xp pots and other goodies to perform better just for reaper content.
Any negative impact on my investment for reaper will make me very unhappy and I believe many other invested players as well.

Do they really want to pxxx on the players that invested money to develop their toons to be the best that they can be to challenge the most difficult content.

I think if they want to help new players, then the focus should be on things to help newb players play content appropriate to their experience and capabilities and group with players of similar capabilities.

Agreed, most of us players who DO r10's or just high reaper spend OUR time, money, and efforts to LEARN the mechanics of the difficulty, our contributions to it should in fact be a benefit to the ones who earned it, not those who haven't. Reaper was never intended to be for "new players" anyway, you can get into if you want, but it's by no means a hard requirement. And if you want to get into it like the rest of us, just do it. We all started with nothing and from nothing we had to learn the mechanics, systems, enemy priorities that come with the difficulty the new proposed ideology of "just giving this away," even partially to anyone else just because they haven't spent their time doing the content, or just to help them catch up is not a good way to show any amount of respect to those who have spent their time doing so. I know many people I've ran in pugs, even if they had access to more reaper points they won't be able to make use of them, again, because they don't have the experience dealing with the content. Reaper is a mind shift change that initially takes a bit of time to adjust to. Just giving someone who's not adjusted to it more benefits will likely be more detrimental or make little to no difference anyway imo.

Many people may call me out on the "Just because you had a hard time of it doesn't mean others need to as well." That's the furthest from the truth, I cannot emphasize this enough, the most valuable resource anyone has in their life, is time. Don't make our time, which we chose to invest in something we enjoyed, which was difficult to overcome. Don't cheapen or disrespect our achievements just to accommodate people who likely won't even be able to make use of the benefits they received out of nowhere.

 

[VinoeWhines]

This:

Agreed, most of us players who DO r10's or just high reaper spend OUR time, money, and efforts to LEARN the mechanics of the difficulty, our contributions to it should in fact be a benefit to the ones who earned it, not those who haven't. Reaper was never intended to be for "new players" anyway, you can get into if you want, but it's by no means a hard requirement. And if you want to get into it like the rest of us, just do it. We all started with nothing and from nothing we had to learn the mechanics, systems, enemy priorities that come with the difficulty the new proposed ideology of "just giving this away," even partially to anyone else just because they haven't spent their time doing the content, or just to help them catch up is not a good way to show any amount of respect to those who have spent their time doing so. I know many people I've ran in pugs, even if they had access to more reaper points they won't be able to make use of them, again, because they don't have the experience dealing with the content. Reaper is a mind shift change that initially takes a bit of time to adjust to. Just giving someone who's not adjusted to it more benefits will likely be more detrimental or make little to no difference anyway imo.

Many people may call me out on the "Just because you had a hard time of it doesn't mean others need to as well." That's the furthest from the truth, I cannot emphasize this enough, the most valuable resource anyone has in their life, is time. Don't make our time, which we chose to invest in something we enjoyed, which was difficult to overcome. Don't cheapen or disrespect our achievements just to accommodate people who likely won't even be able to make use of the benefits they received out of nowhere.

Also, who is to say that "new" players won't quit within 1 month of playing. I have put up LFM's in R10 for some time now and, even experienced players get taken out and then rage quit or straight up say, "I can't continue, it's too difficult to go on." and lock out the LFM when they recall.
So "New" players really, can't really, be realistically expected to play in high Reapers. Now Reaper 1-4, ya, sure they have a better chance, but that's it. And if they want to venture in an R6-10, well that's above their pay grade, unless they want to enter at their own risk.

I learned long ago, even before Reaper, you go into Elite with a group you better be self sufficient and be able to take care of yourself to the best of your abilities.
Now grant it, it is always nice to play in a group, helping each other out but your expected to be able to contribute in some way or at least not be a detriment, I don't mind if others can't play as well or stay alive as long as I can and I don't look down on those players, in fact I encourage them to continue in the dungeon and keep trying their best and to learn, it's always nice to see them get a sense of accomplishment from their "own" efforts, again I will go back and get their stones if need be, to make sure they can get their end chest/reward and enjoy the game as well.

I'm a first lifer and I only have 96 Reaper points at the moment, and I sure earned them, the hard way....months worth of time. If you want others to benefit for the amount of time we put into it, make the new players buy XP pots for Reaper sharing minutes in quest, maybe the first three cores only of the tree of their choice.

What sucks for me is that there is no Assassin abilities in the Reaper Trees for me to use, only CON, DPS and some avoidance, which is nice but Casters do get a chance to raise their DC's and Spell Power. They should include an Uncanny Dodge ability and Assassinate DC and CC ability as well.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

More trees.
Less free HP.
Account based.

 

[ForeverZero]

This:

Also, who is to say that "new" players won't quit within 1 month of playing. I have put up LFM's in R10 for some time now and, even experienced players get taken out and then rage quit or straight up say, "I can't continue, it's too difficult to go on." and lock out the LFM when they recall.
So "New" players really, can't really, be realistically expected to play in high Reapers. Now Reaper 1-4, ya, sure they have a better chance, but that's it. And if they want to venture in an R6-10, well that's above their pay grade, unless they want to enter at their own risk.

I learned long ago, even before Reaper, you go into Elite with a group you better be self sufficient and be able to take care of yourself to the best of your abilities.
Now grant it, it is always nice to play in a group, helping each other out but your expected to be able to contribute in some way or at least not be a detriment, I don't mind if others can't play as well or stay alive as long as I can and I don't look down on those players, in fact I encourage them to continue in the dungeon and keep trying their best and to learn, it's always nice to see them get a sense of accomplishment from their "own" efforts, again I will go back and get their stones if need be, to make sure they can get their end chest/reward and enjoy the game as well.

I'm a first lifer and I only have 96 Reaper points at the moment, and I sure earned them, the hard way....months worth of time. If you want others to benefit for the amount of time we put into it, make the new players buy XP pots for Reaper sharing minutes in quest, maybe the first three cores only of the tree of their choice.

What sucks for me is that there is no Assassin abilities in the Reaper Trees for me to use, only CON, DPS and some avoidance, which is nice but Casters do get a chance to raise their DC's and Spell Power. They should include an Uncanny Dodge ability and Assassinate DC and CC ability as well.

Damn i never really realised theres no dc for tactics or anything in adversary. I just recently swapped from doublestrike momento to fort and dodge bypass cause 100% doublestrike now. Just assumed it was tactics. Lmao.

Maybe make a utility tree? Tactics, maybe some other niche things. But idk i never really thought bout it.

More trees.
Less free HP.
Account based.

Id be down with more trees, less hp is fine too. Long as they potentically scale enemy damage back damage slighty to compensate.

Account based is fine imo. Though itd make my alts actually useful. I can see how itd be a detriment at same time. Maybe that can be where a shared point system is? Say main has 156 reaper ap. An alt can only acess a fraction of it? Or make it xp based? Like 1/5th xp or points? Thats a thought, though not a super well thought one since im at work.

 

[Shear-buckler]

"don't change reapers trees"

Reaper points are not community points, they are self earned, we don't share HP or Mana either.

Limiting tree path is stupid, this is a game that allows for versatility of builds and playstyle.. points already limit path options until more points are earned.


I have spent thousands of hours farming reaper points
along with DDO store funding real money for xp pots and other goodies to perform better just for reaper content.
Any negative impact on my investment for reaper will make me very unhappy and I believe many other invested players as well.

Do they really want to pxxx on the players that invested money to develop their toons to be the best that they can be to challenge the most difficult content.

I think if they want to help new players, then the focus should be on things to help newb players play content appropriate to their experience and capabilities and group with players of similar capabilities.

The current reaper trees offer essentially nothing to "versatility of builds and playstyles".
The OPs suggestion of selecting one of mutliple "reaper tracks" can easily add far more "versatility of builds and playstyles" than the current system.

So yeah, "don't change reaper trees" is a position based only on a petty feeling that others don't deserve what you have "worked" for.

 

[jotmon]

So yeah, "don't change reaper trees" is a position based only on a petty feeling that others don't deserve what you have "worked" for.

Nonsensical response.

It has nothing to do with petty feelings or deserving anything.

Run reaper , earn reaper points spend them how you like in the tree's available.

Reaper paths predefined by class is a no thanks from me, I have no interest in pigeon-holing my choices anymore then they are already limited.

 

[Ahpuch]

First, I would like to say that I rather keep how reapers works know, it allows better customization for our characters for ppl without 150 or more reapers points.

With that first statement out of the way, I would like to talk about what Sev have been hinting this year the changes to how reapers bonus is going to work coming the revamp of the system.
...

With the work CoDog was doing to optimize the character calcs, I am counting that Sevs idea is no longer on the table. I have no faith that any changes that he was hinting at would make the game better. I would rather see them remove reaper trees entirely (replacing them with other non-combat benefits for those with reaperXP) than do what Sev was hinting at.

 

[Col Kurtz]

I understand people spent a ton of time farming their points...but its been said before, and Ill repeat it> Gaining hit points and Power to perform better in a difficulty that was supposed to be harder and makes it easier, is azz backwards.

Real Reaper should be something like... r1-r10 with no healing nerf until maybe r6. and, No buffs from reaper trees. But. whatever...the damage has been done by the devs long ago and surely people who farmed a ton of points would riot.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Nonsensical response.

It has nothing to do with petty feelings or deserving anything.

Run reaper , earn reaper points spend them how you like in the tree's available.

Reaper paths predefined by class is a no thanks from me, I have no interest in pigeon-holing my choices anymore then they are already limited.

What exactly is it about the reaper trees that you think is an important part of the character customization process? I really dont see it. It's only generic stat boots that is already predefined by your build. There is very little meaningful choice involved and the outcome for your character is always the same. I too like spending points, but in these trees you spend the points essentially the same every time.

Imagine instead you got to pick 1 of 5 different "reaper tracks" that have different focuses. That could easily be far more build defining and playstyle enabling than the current system. It should not be prefefined by your class other than what track you start on, and that is just to help new players.

 

[Shear-buckler]

First, I would like to say that I rather keep how reapers works know, it allows better customization for our characters for ppl without 150 or more reapers points.

With that first statement out of the way, I would like to talk about what Sev have been hinting this year the changes to how reapers bonus is going to work coming the revamp of the system.

So, if I got this right, what he proposes is that there is going to be just one tree that will give you certain kind of bonuses related to how much reaper exp you have, the idea behind this is to allow veterans to share some of that power to newer players by giving them a fraction of the power of the party leader if theirs is lower than that. As a returner player myself I see the value of this, since when I got back the reaper system was well underway and i got 0 reaper points, so it was kind of painful to try to play endgame content. and this system this idea is not compatible with how reaper tree is right now. So, we are in a situation where we are sacrificing flexibility for availability for new players. But I would like to add a middle point. What if we allow players to choose a reaper path So you got your tank, reaper path, your melee path, range path, hybrid path ( for EDK for example) and other paths that are fixed in what they provide but are still giving a choice as to what you can get from your reaper points. This would add the value of giving devs some room to add more "reaper paths" in the future or balance them easily too. while giving us some choice back.
So how does this work in the game? well your first level ( and class) define your predefined "reaper path" so in case you don't choose one yourself the game will still provide you with whatever path it's better for your basic class role. And then you can go to the reaper windows and choose another path, this can be done 1 time for free each life and with platinum after with or other form of restriction if needed. You can even put a description of each tree or show what bonus you get at certain thresholds.
I hope we can have a good discussion about this that doesn't go around "don't change reapers trees" because that's a different conversation.

This is such a great idea. I think it would add more depth to the character customization than the current system.

 

[Dulkhan]

Remember guys that, even if you share power it doesn't mean that you have to give players the same reaper power level that you have, it could be 50% or 75% for example.
Thing is that even at low level or low reaper, new players feel like they can't put their weight into the group.