Reaper tree Revamp

[Dulkhan]

First, I would like to say that I rather keep how reapers works know, it allows better customization for our characters for ppl without 150 or more reapers points.

With that first statement out of the way, I would like to talk about what Sev have been hinting this year the changes to how reapers bonus is going to work coming the revamp of the system.

So, if I got this right, what he proposes is that there is going to be just one tree that will give you certain kind of bonuses related to how much reaper exp you have, the idea behind this is to allow veterans to share some of that power to newer players by giving them a fraction of the power of the party leader if theirs is lower than that. As a returner player myself I see the value of this, since when I got back the reaper system was well underway and i got 0 reaper points, so it was kind of painful to try to play endgame content. and this system this idea is not compatible with how reaper tree is right now. So, we are in a situation where we are sacrificing flexibility for availability for new players. But I would like to add a middle point. What if we allow players to choose a reaper path So you got your tank, reaper path, your melee path, range path, hybrid path ( for EDK for example) and other paths that are fixed in what they provide but are still giving a choice as to what you can get from your reaper points. This would add the value of giving devs some room to add more "reaper paths" in the future or balance them easily too. while giving us some choice back.
So how does this work in the game? well your first level ( and class) define your predefined "reaper path" so in case you don't choose one yourself the game will still provide you with whatever path it's better for your basic class role. And then you can go to the reaper windows and choose another path, this can be done 1 time for free each life and with platinum after with or other form of restriction if needed. You can even put a description of each tree or show what bonus you get at certain thresholds.
I hope we can have a good discussion about this that doesn't go around "don't change reapers trees" because that's a different conversation.

 

[ForeverZero]

I understand people spent a ton of time farming their points...but its been said before, and Ill repeat it> Gaining hit points and Power to perform better in a difficulty that was supposed to be harder and makes it easier, is azz backwards.

Real Reaper should be something like... r1-r10 with no healing nerf until maybe r6. and, No buffs from reaper trees. But. whatever...the damage has been done by the devs long ago and surely people who farmed a ton of points would riot.

But thats part of the problem. Many people with those massive reaper points have and use builds that would do fine with or without them. Theyre just a helpful bump to those of us who did the content. Lets remove past lives since they make the game easier. Including reaper. I know thsts not quite the point you were making but if you stsrt going down with saying what you did about whats already implimented, theres no one who wont say something similar. Its a nasty can of worms.

Could they dial it back a bit? Sure. I do think the hp is a bit much. But even then they built reaper difficulty around those reaper points as well. Having a system with no rewards especially visible rewards in such an old game as is seems like shooting themselves in the foot. Given how much time and effort it took to develop it. Could there be solutions to it?

The last bit, even the small benefits by and large dont make as astronomical a difference as you make it out to be. Not saying it doesnt. But the what? Like 21 melee power and prr is totally gonna circumvent doing 15% damage or 10% i guess if youre caster. The only real arguement is the hp. Which again is a bit much. But even then its not even a hit in r10. Its a couple hits in r4 maybe. Which is nice but again nothing to write home about. DDO has already cemented itself as a small boosts over time. And reaper does just that the lower points are easier to get for sure. But after a while it does indeed add up to a complex and valued system by many.

 

[Dulkhan]

Thing is, I think reaper as a system for difficulty is over, we either build a new system or add another layer to it, let's say reaper 15 and from 11 to 15 you can access another progress system that only work on that difficulty, and you need to have at least XX amount of points into at least one reaper tree or in all trees to access it. this could have more things than let you differentiate yourself from other and keep this game alive. Most mmo get to a point where you need to start adding systems to keep the players especially old ones interested. And maybe we need that here too.
On this subject I would love to see heroic exp lowered for second and third so on, to allow new players an easier way to catch up to us the old guard.

 

[ForeverZero]

Remember guys that, even if you share power it doesn't mean that you have to give players the same reaper power level that you have, it could be 50% or 75% for example.
Thing is that even at low level or low reaper, new players feel like they can't put their weight into the group.

I believe most people already assumed it wasnt gonna be a 1:1 ratio. If it was proposed thst way ssg is significantly more out of touch than they seemed. But the point still stands. If you cant pull your weight in the content dont do it. Wait, learn more then try again. DDO is much an accumulation game. Past lives, gear, tomes ( even though they can and are most likely bought), experience that comes with playing the game. Many people who have the experience with say r10s can and do make viable first life toons to help in reaper. Debuffers, buffers, ect. Do they die more often than their mains? Most likely. But thats again, in part mainly due to accumulation. Which is a type of game ddo is. You can contribute in r10s if you KNOW how. And thats the main difference between a veteran and new player. M9st veterans are more than willing to share our knowledge, but most newbies are more caught up in the moment to ask for it. And those who do usually end up with the proper mindshift changes that warrant playing in reaper, specficially higher reaper.

 

[ForeverZero]

Thing is, I think reaper as a system for difficulty is over, we either build a new system or add another layer to it, let's say reaper 15 and from 11 to 15 you can access another progress system that only work on that difficulty, and you need to have at least XX amount of points into at least one reaper tree or in all trees to access it. this could have more things than let you differentiate yourself from other and keep this game alive. Most mmo get to a point where you need to start adding systems to keep the players especially old ones interested. And maybe we need that here too.
On this subject I would love to see heroic exp lowered for second and third so on, to allow new players an easier way to catch up to us the old guard.

Reaper is still much of a difficulty thing though i think it seems lessend now due to, again, experience. At some point any and all content becomes less challenging because people know what to expect and how to deal with it better than when say reaper was first released. And push raids are still a difficult thing regardless. Though thats partly due to just how much damage reaper raid enemies do. Which imo is more of an artificial scaling and not a mechanical scaling difference.

On an off topic. Rememeber OLD epic content. That CHANGED mechanics in quests from heroic to epic? Like the ballistas in epic storm the beaches would be something thst can actually be fired at you. Or many other quests that changed subtle mechanics in other ways to make the quest. Though effectively the same. It changed it enough to be interesting. If they fould implement something similarly unique with reaper trees I'd be down. Knowing full well something of the like is unlikely.

 

[Shear-buckler]

I believe most people already assumed it wasnt gonna be a 1:1 ratio. If it was proposed thst way ssg is significantly more out of touch than they seemed. But the point still stands. If you cant pull your weight in the content dont do it. Wait, learn more then try again. DDO is much an accumulation game. Past lives, gear, tomes ( even though they can and are most likely bought), experience that comes with playing the game. Many people who have the experience with say r10s can and do make viable first life toons to help in reaper. Debuffers, buffers, ect. Do they die more often than their mains? Most likely. But thats again, in part mainly due to accumulation. Which is a type of game ddo is. You can contribute in r10s if you KNOW how. And thats the main difference between a veteran and new player. M9st veterans are more than willing to share our knowledge, but most newbies are more caught up in the moment to ask for it. And those who do usually end up with the proper mindshift changes that warrant playing in reaper, specficially higher reaper.

" If you cant pull your weight in the content dont do it."´applies equally with or without shared reaper bonuses. What exactly is yuor objection other than "I have worked hard for my bonuses and I don't want new players to catch up"?

 

[ForeverZero]

" If you cant pull your weight in the content dont do it."´applies equally with or without shared reaper bonuses. What exactly is yuor objection other than "I have worked hard for my bonuses and I don't want new players to catch up"?

I never said they shouldn't catch up. Only to do their due diligence to work for it reaper was never intended for new players. I think you just saw one line and got a case of coming to conclusions, and legitimately didnt read the rest of the post. Which detailed many of the things I've given as basis on why. But the tldr. Since you're too lazy to read what i assume you see as a wall of text is. Experience matters. Giving people reaper bonuses which was the poijt of the thread is a bad idea becuase most newer players do not have the experience -experience in this case being how to deal with the mindshift change that is in fact reaper- there are many facets to that, i never once said "i have worked hard for my bonuses and dont want new players to catch up." So before you start trying to use quotation marks for something i didnt say nor imply, please do everyone a service and actually read the posts and comprehending them before trying to put words into someone elses mouth that were not uttered nor implied.

Edit; If anything, getting points now is eaiser than ever. Most of the legwork has been done by the high reaper community and we don't try to hide the information we have gained over the years, people just need to ask. And in most cases thats not even required we're usually happy to teach people. Ive seen people with less time playing than i have get suprisingly close to where im at now with the help of myself and others. And it's a normal phenomenon if you're a respectful person whos legitimately fun to run with.

 

[Shear-buckler]

I never said they shouldn't catch up. Only to do their due diligence to work for it reaper was never intended for new players. I think you just saw one line and got a case of jumping the gun, and legitimately didnt read the rest of the post. Which detailed many of the things I've given as basis on why. But the tldr. Since you're too lazy to read what i assume you see as a wall of text is. Experience matters. Giving people reaper bonuses which was the poijt of the thread is a bad idea becuase most newer players do not have the experience -experience in this case being how to deal with the mindshift change that is in fact reaper- there are many facets to that, i never once said "i have worked hard for my bonuses and dont want new players to catch up." So before you start trying to use quotation marks for something i didnt say nor imply, please do everyone a service and actually read the posts and comprehending them before trying to put words into someone elses mouth that were not uttered.

No I read your posts, it just doesn't make sense. Why is it a bad idea to share reaper bonuses? How is it realated to the "mindset change"?
That reaper was not intended for new players is irrelevant, it has become the standard difficulty setting and by far most LFMs are made for reaper. That means new players will play on reaper regardless if you think they are worthy or not. Sharing reaper bonuses will help mitigate the enormous stat differences between new and established players. What harm is done, exactly?

"New players will still die in R10" is not an argument against this system.

 

[ForeverZero]

No I read your posts, it just doesn't make sense. Why is it a bad idea to share reaper bonuses? How is it realated to the "mindset change"?
That reaper was not intended for new players is irrelevant, it has become the standard difficulty setting and by far most LFMs are made for reaper. That means new players will play on reaper regardless if you think they are worthy or not. Sharing reaper bonuses will help mitigate the enormous stat differences between new and established players. What harm is done, exactly?

"New players will still die in R10" is not an argument against this system.

Did you read my other posts about it? Most of them detail everything well. R1 is fine and pretty much the same as elite.
1. Its related to mindshift changes because if they're not experienced enough to understand whats happening and making the shared reaper points moot.
2. Yes R1 is indeed standard and its barely harder than elite even on first lifers.
3. I should likely change it to saying "high reaper" since youre being so picky about it. But yes. *high reaper* isn't intended for new players. R1 is fine and i dont really hear anyone complain about it on my server being too hard. This is anecdotal to be sure. But thats my experience.
4. There is no harm directly. But if they do it with reaper points. Whose to say they wont do for it other things? Racials ap? Past lives? We learned the mechanics of how reaper works. And were rewarded for it. There are first lifers with reaper wings and more. It's possible but this all again circles back to experience. Which is earned. Not given. Sharing points is a big middle finger to people who spent the time to grind it. Whether you or i care about it benefitting people or not. We all recieved help in some way, but it was never in such a potentially massive way to demerit any achievements these newer players can earn by thinking and learning for themselves.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Did you read my other posts about it? Most of them detail everything well. R1 is fine and pretty much the same as elite.
1. Its related to mindshift changes because if they're not experienced enough to understand whats happening and making the shared reaper points moot.
2. Yes R1 is indeed standard and its barely harder than elite even on first lifers.
3. I should likely change it to saying "high reaper" since youre being so picky about it. But yes. *high reaper* isn't intended for new players. R1 is fine and i dont really hear anyone complain about it on my server being too hard. This is anecdotal to be sure. But thats my experience.
4. There is no harm directly. But if they do it with reaper points. Whose to say they wont do for it other things? Racials ap? Past lives? We learned the mechanics of how reaper works. And were rewarded for it. There are first lifers with reaper wings and more. It's possible but this all again circles back to experience. Which is earned. Not given. Sharing points is a big middle finger to people who spent the time to grind it. Whether you or i care about it benefitting people or not. We all recieved help in some way, but it was never in such a potentially massive way to demerit any achievements these newer players can earn by thinking and learning for themselves.

1. So what if they are not experienced enough to understand what's happening? It will be easier for them to learn if they have the additional surivivability from the shared reaper bonuses.
2. Indeed. So what is the problem with sharing bonuses?
3. ok.
4. I am all for catch up mechanics for past lives. Getting a past life today is 10 times faster and easier than back in the day, yet I don't see anyone complaining about "demerit to their achievements" and it doesn't hinder new players from getting the experience they need for high reaper. There is no harm directly or indirectly.

It all comes down to this:
"Sharing points is a big middle finger to people who spent the time to grind it."
Which sounds remarkably similar to this:
"I have worked hard for my bonuses and I don't want new players to catch up"

 

[ForeverZero]

1. So what if they are not experienced enough to understand what's happening? It will be easier for them to learn if they have the additional surivivability from the shared reaper bonuses.
2. Indeed. So what is the problem with sharing bonuses?
3. ok.
4. I am all for catch up mechanics for past lives. Getting a past life today is 10 times faster and easier than back in the day, yet I don't see anyone complaining about "demerit to their achievements" and it doesn't hinder new players from getting the experience they need for high reaper. There is no harm directly or indirectly.

It all comes down to this:
"Sharing points is a big middle finger to people who spent the time to grind it."
Which sounds remarkably similar to this:
"I have worked hard for my bonuses and I don't want new players to catch up"

We're going in circles and its not doing anything. You're attemtping to sumaraize a list of things I've said and all you can come up with is one thing of "i dont want others to have it?" Again i never said nor implied this is and it just seems to me You're trying to play devils advocate for seemingly no reason. Probably to get a rise? But its not worth the effort to reply anymore. Weve both given our arguement good or bad either may be.

Theres other mmos for you to play if you want everything given to you. Take care, and I wish you the best. I truly do. But theres nothing else for either of us to say anymore.

 

[ForeverZero]

Thing is, I think reaper as a system for difficulty is over, we either build a new system or add another layer to it, let's say reaper 15 and from 11 to 15 you can access another progress system that only work on that difficulty, and you need to have at least XX amount of points into at least one reaper tree or in all trees to access it. this could have more things than let you differentiate yourself from other and keep this game alive. Most mmo get to a point where you need to start adding systems to keep the players especially old ones interested. And maybe we need that here too.
On this subject I would love to see heroic exp lowered for second and third so on, to allow new players an easier way to catch up to us the old guard.

I've always joked saying we need an r11 -friendly fire- difficulty. No more aoe. Seemed like a fun and interesting idea though entirely joke worthy.

 

[Shear-buckler]

We're going in circles and its not doing anything. You're attemtping to sumaraize a list of things I've said and all you can come up with is one thing of "i dont want others to have it?" Again i never said nor implied this is and it just seems to me You're trying to play devils advocate for seemingly no reason. Probably to get a rise? But its not worth the effort to reply anymore. Weve both given our arguement good or bad either may be.

Theres other mmos for you to play if you want everything given to you. Take care, and I wish you the best. I truly do. But theres nothing else for either of us to say anymore.

I have read your posts and I responded to your list. It did not contain a single reason for why shared bonuses are bad except that it demerits the achievements of established players. If that is your argument then fine, you are free to believe so. The only reason we are going in circles is that you refuse to admit your actual motivation.

 

[ForeverZero]

I have read your posts and I responded to your list. It did not contain a single reason for why shared bonuses are bad except that it demerits the achievements of established players. If that is your argument then fine, you are free to believe so. The only reason we are going in circles is that you refuse to admit your actual motivation.

After rereading my posts I have indeed noticed i wasnt specifically clear on what i want. I will try to explain better here is- i hope- the gist and my reasonings.

I do not agree with sharing points as you have surmised due to players farming those points and experience through the content. The motivation being players learn the best when theyre given information instead of direct power to learn and understand what theyre doing and why theyre doing it. People need to start at lower difficulties be it elite or r1. And thats fine. I never denied it would catch them up. But i dont disapprove with it for the reasons you assume i do. Being i dont want them to catch up. I couldn't care less nor could it be further from the truth given how many people ive helped over the years as is. More people to do push raids with later and thats always a plus. I just have an issue with the idea of it being potentially being forcfully done.

I have no idea if this makes it clearer for others but it makes sense in my head. Though i should probably mention im kinda forced to do these posts kinda quick cause i type them on my phone at work. So i dont get to really think too clearly before posting.

 

[Shear-buckler]

After rereading my posts I have indeed noticed i wasnt specifically clear on what i want. I will try to explain better here is- i hope- the gist and my reasonings.

I do not agree with sharing points as you have surmised due to players farming those points and experience through the content. The motivation being players learn the best when theyre given information instead of direct power to learn and understand what theyre doing and why theyre doing it. People need to start at lower difficulties be it elite or r1. And thats fine. I never denied it would catch them up. But i dont disapprove with it for the reasons you assume i do. Being i dont want them to catch up. I couldn't care less nor could it be further from the truth given how many people ive helped over the years as is. More people to do push raids with later and thats always a plus. I just have an issue with the idea of it being potentially being forcfully done.

I have no idea if this makes it clearer for others but it makes sense in my head. Though i should probably mention im kinda forced to do these posts kinda quick cause i type them on my phone at work. So i dont get to really think too clearly before posting.

Not to put words in your mouth, but to make sure I understand what you are saying. You think that if new players get stat buffs from established players it will let them "start" at a higher difficulty setting and thus not have developed the proper mindset specifically requred for "high reaper"/R10.

 

[ForeverZero]

Not to put words in your mouth, but to make sure I understand what you are saying. You think that if new players get stat buffs from established players it will let them "start" at a higher difficulty setting and thus not have developed the proper mindset specifically requred for "high reaper"/R10.

This is correct.

i would like to add as well a false sense of security that can just be taken away given party circumstances. As a hypothetical lets go with lets say someone with 156 reaper ap is sharing them and just to throw a random number out 30? If you have are dependant on those points that would be a detriment to the newer player. Since theyre used to the values they dont have at all times making them inconsistent which i argue is worse in many situations. Even low reaper. If you yeet into a room expecting to live and die cause you oopsie doodles forgot you dont magically have something. Thats gonna be an annoyance and detriment to the party.

 

[Shear-buckler]

This is correct.

i would like to add as well a false sense of security that can just be taken away given party circumstances. As a hypothetical lets go with lets say someone with 156 reaper ap is sharing them and just to throw a random number out 30? If you have are dependant on those points that would be a detriment to the newer player. Since theyre used to the values they dont have at all times making them inconsistent which i argue is worse in many situations. Even low reaper. If you yeet into a room expecting to live and die cause you oopsie doodles forgot you dont magically have something. Thats gonna be an annoyance and detriment to the party.

I strongly disagree with the first point. It really doesn't make sense. What does it matter if they start in Elite or R3? Neither will develop the R10 mindset, so the learning curve remains the same. Only now they wont feel like complete trash compared to established players in the available pugs.

As for the inconsitency, that is a valid point but I the positive benefits far outweighs that small inconvinience IMO.

 

[ForeverZero]

I strongly disagree with the first point. It really doesn't make sense. What does it matter if they start in Elite or R3? Neither will develop the R10 mindset, so the learning curve remains the same. Only now they wont feel like complete trash compared to established players in the available pugs.

As for the inconsitency, that is a valid point but I the positive benefits far outweighs that small inconvinience IMO.

Imo as long as you contribute in any way it doesn't really matter. I think key is letting new players KNOW that they contributed as well as knowing that not all contribution is kill count. Let them know they werent a burden, even if they were, advising them on things that are more easily upgradable. Gear, build options, enhancements are a much easier and suitable way to get better without needing reaper points.

Its indeed not like doing r1 will make you do r10.
It's a progression thing. R8-10 is where the reaper difficulty really changes enemy priority. The r10 mindset is learned in r10s, You do r1 3, 5, 7, then 8-10 typically for a reason. Extra points likely wont let you skip the new mechanics and extra reapers added at the milestone difficulties. Can it be overcome? Most definitely. But slower more consistent is tried and true. Not to say we cant have other ways. But they damn sure better be planned out better than the usual stuff.

The last point i want to make is doing it the slow tried and true method is overall not as slow as people think. You're just learning the mechanics. You can be fairly viable as a first lifer new player even in r10s. With minimal points. Will they be less useful than other options? Definitely. But they're still useful. Most just dont know it.

The biggest benefit i see is if they get into an lfm and people pass on knowledge bout what to expect. But thats better done over like discord than a random pug.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Imo as long as you contribute in any way it doesn't really matter. I think key is letting new players KNOW that they contributed as well as knowing that not all contribution is kill count. Let them know they werent a burden, even if they were, advising them on things that are more easily upgradable. Gear, build options, enhancements are a much easier and suitable way to get better without needing reaper points.

Its indeed not like doing r1 will make you do r10.
It's a progression thing. R8-10 is where the reaper difficulty really changes enemy priority. The r10 mindset is learned in r10s, You do r1 3, 5, 7, then 10 typically for a reason. Extra points likely wont let you skip the new mechanics and extra reapers added at the milestone difficulties. Can it be overcome? Most definitely. But slower more consistent is tried and true. Not to say we cant have other ways. But they damn sure better be planned out better than the usual stuff.

The last point i want to make is doing it the slow tried and true method is overall not as slow as people think. You're just learning the mechanics. You can be fairly viable as a first lifer new player even in r10s. With minimal points. Will they be less useful than other options? Definitely. But they're still useful. Most just dont know it.

The biggest benefit i see is if they get into an lfm and people pass on knowledge bout what to expect. But thats better done over like discord than a random pug.

You are making my point for me. Even with shared stat bonuses the R10 learning curve is exactly the same, so the notion that it would diminish from their learning experience and hinder their "R10 mindset" is just not true. What it would do is increase survivability in low reaper, in the best case making them not instantly die to trash mobs that pose no threat to established players.

 

[ForeverZero]

You are making my point for me. Even with shared stat bonuses the R10 learning curve is exactly the same, so the notion that it would diminish from their learning experience and hinder their "R10 mindset" is just not true. What it would do is increase survivability in low reaper, in the best case making them not instantly die to trash mobs that pose no threat to established players.

Thats fair i suppose. Maybe I'm just stubborn or don't really have a case. Who knows. But i think theres valid reason to not start sharing reaper points. Maybe i cant think of it. But it just seems detrimental to game health.

Imo even in low reaper sharing points wont really do anything hp wise. They can still smack pretty hard on my main. Especially now. I dont think it would benefit them any with the barely 200or 300 hp youd prolly get from shared points. Thats not even a whack from some r1 trash.

Trash mobs are always the problem to be honest. Theyre usually the reason people die newbies and established players.

Since i assume now were on a similar standing that reaper ap helps but isnt nessessary, if you have the experience to back it up anyway.

This leads me to my question. If theres no need for it in your words. The learning curve is the same. Why spend so long and many dev hours on this? We have been told bout it a long time ago now. How many dev hours have been spent on it already? Maybe none as of now. Who knows. The time could be better suited to working on legitimate concerns. Lag thats now significantly different, post u59 issues, bugs in general. I think that would be a better use of time of the devs and it would cater to all players not just new players.

 

[Shear-buckler]

This leads me to my question. If theres no need for it in your words. The learning curve is the same. Why spend so long and many dev hours on this?

There is absolutely a need for it. R10 is not all that matters. Spending dev time to make new players less of a liability and increasing their ability to keep up with established players in standard LFMs is worthwhile.