Reaper tree Revamp

[Rincewind]

First, I would like to say that I rather keep how reapers works know, it allows better customization for our characters for ppl without 150 or more reapers points.

With that first statement out of the way, I would like to talk about what Sev have been hinting this year the changes to how reapers bonus is going to work coming the revamp of the system.

So, if I got this right, what he proposes is that there is going to be just one tree that will give you certain kind of bonuses related to how much reaper exp you have, the idea behind this is to allow veterans to share some of that power to newer players by giving them a fraction of the power of the party leader if theirs is lower than that. As a returner player myself I see the value of this, since when I got back the reaper system was well underway and i got 0 reaper points, so it was kind of painful to try to play endgame content. and this system this idea is not compatible with how reaper tree is right now. So, we are in a situation where we are sacrificing flexibility for availability for new players. But I would like to add a middle point. What if we allow players to choose a reaper path So you got your tank, reaper path, your melee path, range path, hybrid path ( for EDK for example) and other paths that are fixed in what they provide but are still giving a choice as to what you can get from your reaper points. This would add the value of giving devs some room to add more "reaper paths" in the future or balance them easily too. while giving us some choice back.
So how does this work in the game? well your first level ( and class) define your predefined "reaper path" so in case you don't choose one yourself the game will still provide you with whatever path it's better for your basic class role. And then you can go to the reaper windows and choose another path, this can be done 1 time for free each life and with platinum after with or other form of restriction if needed. You can even put a description of each tree or show what bonus you get at certain thresholds.
I hope we can have a good discussion about this that doesn't go around "don't change reapers trees" because that's a different conversation.

 

[ForeverZero]

The positions in these threads essentially boil down to "might as well remove reaper points" against " don't take away my stuff".

For people in the second group I would ask two questions:

1) Discounting new player acquisition/retention, discounting old player burn out or dissatisfaction, do you think removing reaper points/trees would be a healthy change for the game (not you personally, the game).

2) Regardless of your response to the first question, why did you play the game? Why did you spend the money? To enjoy your time playing through the content the game offered, or to list your past lives in your bio so you could SS it and put it on your fridge?

Reaper was introduced because "there was no challenge" and there was "nothing to do". People now are asking for reaper 11 because "there is no challenge" and "there is nothing to do". You are your own worst enemy in the context of being able to enjoy this game.

1. Discontinuing reaper trees is something I'm fine with, the proposed changes I'm against specifically about the shared reaper xp. Here are my quick and dirty thoughts i have at work on the subject.

Pros:
1A. Less confusing for new players to get into.
1B. If implimented correctly it could reduce potential lag
-Though this can be said about everything, will get to cons later.
1C. Consistency around the board if the bonuses are flat and at least comparable to old system.

Cons:
1A. While less confusing, it will decrease build diversity and complexity. Will also probably remove momentos and other things that have been taken for granted and are almost a requirement in some situations. CC specifically.

1B. My point in previous posts has been a not so good track record when tweaking existing systems i doubt itll be different this time. There are other more pressing concerns for the health of the game that are more important to most people.

1C. Consistency is good, but it can also be boring if nothing deviates from the norm. Boring games don't usually do well in the long run in my experience. Anecdotal? Sure.

2A. I started cause a table top campaign ( my first ever! ) fell apart and wanted to play dnd. The ones in that group who wanted to still play all found this along with my family.

2B. I spent money on vip cause it was a test to see if i wantsd to invest more time and i enjoyed the game so after vip dropped i started buying packs to keep them forever and not needing a subscription. I enjoyed the content and a mix of TRing to see my character progression slowly but surely.

A question you didnt ask that should have been is "Why are you staying?"

Glad you asked!

-I've never had a game with so much customization options available for a character build. It can seem overwhelming the layers it has. But spend a bit of time and you'll understand them quickly enough!

-Playing with the bois is all most people need. Its a great stress reliever to chill and shoot the sh.....crap with the bois.

-Gonna sound cringe but challenge each and everyone to be a better player or even person behind the player. Most people talk about their lives occasionally and sometimes helping them is a benefit to the community. No difficulty means no learning, no learning comes stagnation, and with stagnation yields regression.

-After i get off work i don't have much to usually do at cap (servers are kinda empty for my off work hours before bed), so I usually just help randoms in lfms farm gear, or help with recommending something ect.

As for last bit. Yeah that about sums it up. *not enough stuff, more stuff to do plox*
Though thats mosts games really. They need to add something for retention in some way. Was reaper the right call? No one knows. But its here to stay now.

That bout sums it up in the time I've alloted myself at work.

 

[Cyran]

R1 for *MOST* content isn't terribly hard. This sort of proves my point that experience as a player is what matters. And you also said you get it by doing reaper. Which is my shared point of view too. Its okay to die in content. If you're not dying, your not challenging yourself enough. It doesnt help theres a negative effect to dying (-10% xp) but thats how you learn in the first place. And of course dying is frustrating. But its here to stay. Might as well attempt to learn from it.

Currently it's "fairly" easy to get into reaper and accumulate the quick and most importantly noticeable boosts that those first ap give. What the proposed changes would do essentially is make something thats already by todays standards of gearing, character building information, ap splits, or even just weird builds that can and are capable is change it from ""fairly easy to get into" to "cake walk easy most of the time"

I think where we differ is our perspective of what actually happening. Nothing wrong with dyeing and can be good for learning. The problem is what I think actually happening is they not dyeing because everything dead before they get in combat range or they die at beginning and spent most the quest dead learning nothing.

If they running in groups that not happening they probably running with people without a lot of reaper points anyway. I guess I don't see the benefit of having other people carry you quickly though 21 reaper points vs increasing the chance you contribute stuff on the way to getting 21 points. I just think they learn more actually making them a little closer to the people they running with.

I think overall it would be a better experience running with other newer players slowly working your way up in difficulty and by the time you run reaper already familiar with game. unfortunately unless you joining with a static group there simply not enough new players to support learning the game that way for newer players.

 

[ForeverZero]

I think where we differ is our perspective of what actually happening. Nothing wrong with dyeing and can be good for learning. The problem is what I think actually happening is they not dyeing because everything dead before they get in combat range or they die at beginning and spent most the quest dead learning nothing.

If they running in groups that not happening they probably running with people without a lot of reaper points anyway. I guess I don't see the benefit of having other people carry you quickly though 21 reaper points vs increasing the chance you contribute stuff on the way to getting 21 points. I just think they learn more actually making them a little closer to the people they running with.

I think overall it would be a better experience running with other newer players slowly working your way up in difficulty and by the time you run reaper already familiar with game. unfortunately unless you joining with a static group there simply not enough new players to support learning the game that way for newer players.

Those are fair points. Lets talk about them.

1. If they're spending that much time dead then that's indeed not good. That's rarely happend to me in my experience in lfms. People have died at start plenty of times due to carelessness typically. Or trying to be a barbarian when they're not, yeeting into rooms first while the rest of the party is still buffing or otherwise not ready. Or being ranged and shooting enemies when they havent been aggroed by someone who can more easily take the abuse. Most of these are the ways i see newer players end up dying before they should, most of which is often preventable. In those aituations what would be the most mature thing to do if you have someone more experienced than oneself would be asking questions. Inquiring about what those people know, asking about how or why they died, any feedback they could to become a better player. Theres always a learning opportunity even if people dont realise or take them. Experience is valueable, whether yours or others. Not to say it cant be misleading or outright wrong. But often times people intend for the best situation. Because we want others to learn, so we have more people to run with.

2. Getting carried is one way to get achieve the goal, do i agree with it? Not always, but it can and does have possitive benefits! Sometimes it's beneficial to see what's possible to know and acknowledge your own limits and how to overcome those limits that are usually self inflicted. To help motivate yourself to get to that point too! Do i recommend people, particularly newer players get carried ALL THE TIME? No i agree with you there, that in and of itself would be detrimental. But occasionally a small instance here and there of being carried isn't always a bad thing. And isn't likely to change anything meaningfully in the long run. And theres always questions you can ask these seemingly better players that could finally make something *click* and it could help you get where you want to eventually be.

3. In my experience on my server it seems most newer players i come across seem to be in a static group already. This is anecdotal but most of the 28 point build low level guilds (my typical assumption of new players) i see are usually already in a group just chillin in town doing their own thing. And thats okay.

Lastly even in end game r10s most of that can be considered static groups in a sense its always the same people running together. So even end gamers are doing static groups in a weird misconstrued sense.

Though to be fair I agree that there are not enough new players to sustain a good more casual player life style. They are there, but they're usually just out doing their own thing. Which is what they should be doing. And we shouldn't be -again I'm repeating myself here for the who knows how many times- catering content around them that they are NOT ready for yet.

 

[Shear-buckler]

My point still stands and funnily enough you just proved my point anyway. Lag reducing efforts haven't really been great. And trying to justify reaper points being the issue seems odd since THEY DID do a reaper change that reduced lag in reaper with the points already. Why try to do anything else to it?

Since you're constantly harping about new players this new players that. New players dont have reaper points. So they're not contributing to the lag of reaper points. I have no idea what point youre even trying to make anymore. But it doesn't matter.

Also, reported for having a conversation? That's crazy. Though nothing will come of it since I didn't do anything wrong. To get upset at others for speaking their minds and opinions in an open medium is petty and glum.

Ok so since lag is not fixed already, nothing else should be done to reduce it? You are not making sense.

The lag reduction is not about new player, but all players. So again, you are not making sense.

Reported for personal attacks. Calling someone a troll to discredit their post is not allowed. Do better.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Cons:
1A. While less confusing, it will decrease build diversity and complexity.

This is just not true. The current system offers very little diversity and complexity. A system like the OP is proposing would easily create more complexity and diversity by adding far more meaningful choices.

 

[Rincewind]

Wow I leave for a couple of days and the discussion got ignited.

So let me get some points first.

The objective of this pass is first to reduce lag, and help new players.

1.- I think we can all agree that reducing lag or at least trying to, is good for the game period, we know we have spaghetti code here so there are no magical solutions and a lot of things devs do end up opening other doors for the same or worst lag, that there were no way of knowing was there waiting...

Yet what sacrifices are we open to do in order to try to improve lag, there is a lot of concern about the lost of "Choice" with the change, but lets be real, after getting to a certain threshold of RP there is no really any choice, you just put all your points into two trees and fill them up, some ppl can even fill of 3 of them. so the Choice is only for new players really, we got all the power of the reaper tree, no choice to be made. so why complain then? What I'm trying to say is that, for a lot of us there is no choice to loose because we already have enough points to get everything we need. really. the rest is just 4 hp per point. ( for most) And now we can leave that discussion behind, especially if you consider my proposal to create different kind of reaper paths.

So lets talk about new players.
I have tried to bring friend into the game and I have seen other ppl do it too. my approach is usually different since I create a new character to play with them as my friend usually just tr their main to "carry them" Who do you think have more success making their friends staying in the game? Me, why? because my friends have fun contributing to the success of the quests, they are not being "carried" and just moving around seeing how other finish the quest for them without being able to participate, this is even worst the highest level you get because by lvl 21 the difference become so big in stats just by reaper points alone that they are technically useless. and being useless is no fun. That's the main issue here, to contribute and have fun, even at r1 the difference in power is becoming so big between a new and old player that the possibility to add something to pug is little to none, and just go healer is not a valid option really for anyone that didn't want to play one to begin with. So the idea is to bring power level of new players to a point where if they play decently, they can still contribute to their group, and that could be getting a little more power and even more survivability (a dead dps don't dps) this is a balance that need to be archived and this could be done with the same thresholds we got now, so you get at best this at lvl 4 10, 17, 21 etc. so your power relative to the highest reaper point don't stay too far behind. This alone is a discussion for a thread in itself.
So let talk about, they need to go through the same grind that I did logic. But we have to remember that the game we grind that power was very VERY different that the game we are playing now, and it wasn't given all at the same time as a new player get, we got to farm Class past lives, race past lives, Epic past lives, reaper points, etc... in different points in time, so the grind did felt that big, and even if some of you did it the hard way doesn't mean that it should stay the same, we all know the game have a retention problem and this ( with lag) is one of our biggest problems. we need to make it easier to get to "end game" for new players, that doesn't invalidate the work we did, we probably will have to keep farm a new system to keep us in yet another hamster wheel (probably legendary past lives) anyway. but could help players to take a year or two to get there, instead of good know how much with the amount of past lives we got now) So the devs need to take steps into make thing easier for new players and while lowering the amount for 3th lifers and so on to tr could be a great change too, the more easy change that could also help us get rid of some lag too is this one. so why not take it? what is so wrong about allowing new players to get 20 out of the 100 mobs killed in a quest instead of you killing everything? or for him to survive at least one hit more that allow him the time chance to actually practice how to avoid getting himself into danger? we are not talking about you losing power, we are talking about them gaining some so they can have fun even playing in R1 with a veteran. How much power we are going to loose or gain with the change is yet again another debate.
Some mention that new players play in static groups, that would require for them most likely to start playing with a group of friends and that is not how you want your new player experience to be around, the game need to be able to allow new players with no friends in game to enjoy the game meet new people and CONTRIBUTE. This goes from R1 heroic and epic leveling to legendary r10. How much power to they need in order to at least have and experience that let the learn the ropes its up to discussion, the fact that they need some help to catch up, I really don't think there is much to argue there. I do think there is a discussion to be had if new players should be playing r10, but that discussion is also related to how hard and how much time a new player need to invest to do so, how much time should it take? what are the minimum requirements? because I actually think is an unrealistic time that a new player need to invent in the game to be able to contribute to r10 as the game it is now, and this is probably the most straightforward way to help them reduce it. while also trying to reduce lag, while hopefully not loosing power..
and you I see you writing choice! chuu with you chuuu

 

[Ahpuch]

there is a lot of concern about the lost of "Choice" with the change, but lets be real, after getting to a certain threshold of RP there is no really any choice, you just put all your points into two trees and fill them up, some ppl can even fill of 3 of them. so the Choice is only for new players really

This understates it a little. When you have enough for two trees you can choose to fill either Dread Adversary for melee/ranged combat or Dire Thaumaturge if you are a caster. Are Casters going to be happy if they just give everyone the Dread Adversary tree? Is anyone gonna be happy if they give everyone a little from each? Is anyone at all gonna be happy if they give a little from all 3 and you cannot focus on the survive-ability of Grim Barricade first?

And if you have enough to fill all three trees you still made bunch of choices. I wouldn't call that build diversity but it does allow a player to bolster what they think their character needs. Are the players who put 12 points into boosting Will saves gonna be good with 4 to each of Will, Fort and Reflex? Are those who depend on maxing PRR benefits gonna be happy that some of those points are going to MRR? Similar concerns for Int vs Wis vs Cha or Dex vs Str.

There are not a lot of choices once maxed but there are some and giving up the customization that some people are counting on to change to a (likely) blended set of benefits (and a likely weaker bonus for their character) will not make people happy. The only way people will not lose out with such a plan is if SSG power creeps again.

 

[Rincewind]

This understates it a little. When you have enough for two trees you can choose to fill either Dread Adversary for melee/ranged combat or Dire Thaumaturge if you are a caster. Are Casters going to be happy if they just give everyone the Dread Adversary tree? Is anyone gonna be happy if they give everyone a little from each? Is anyone at all gonna be happy if they give a little from all 3 and you cannot focus on the survive-ability of Grim Barricade first?

And if you have enough to fill all three trees you still made bunch of choices. I wouldn't call that build diversity but it does allow a player to bolster what they think their character needs. Are the players who put 12 points into boosting Will saves gonna be good with 4 to each of Will, Fort and Reflex? Are those who depend on maxing PRR benefits gonna be happy that some of those points are going to MRR? Similar concerns for Int vs Wis vs Cha or Dex vs Str.

There are not a lot of choices once maxed but there are some and giving up the customization that some people are counting on to change to a (likely) blended set of benefits (and a likely weaker bonus for their character) will not make people happy. The only way people will not lose out with such a plan is if SSG power creeps again.

Thats why I'm talking about reaper paths, you choose the one that suit you better, and it would be a great idea to know exactly what we are getting along the way, say it in game or on the website or wiki. you still get some kind of choice, It's a different kind of choice, but what we have now is not that big either, especially when you get enough to nearly max out two trees at least. and things like stats wise could be linked to your main stats, as for secondary or third stats is that a loss so big? really? and even then, you could come up with some path's that could get that into account. like a monk reaper path for example. the power level of the new paths is a matter of balance, not really related to systems and choices.

 

[Cyran]

Thats why I'm talking about reaper paths, you choose the one that suit you better, and it would be a great idea to know exactly what we are getting along the way, say it in game or on the website or wiki. you still get some kind of choice, It's a different kind of choice, but what we have now is not that big either, especially when you get enough to nearly max out two trees at least. and things like stats wise could be linked to your main stats, as for secondary or third stats is that a loss so big? really? and even then, you could come up with some path's that could get that into account. like a monk reaper path for example. the power level of the new paths is a matter of balance, not really related to systems and choices.

I doubtful Stand Stones game would be willing to maintain paths and come up with them and am not even sure they could do it in a way that not going to make more people unhappy then happy.

If they going to change it the way I would handle linear path is

At level 4 player do the following in the reaper UI
Choose Primary Physical stat: Str/dex
Choose Primary mental stat: int/wis/cha
Choose Primary Save: fort/wis/reflex
Choose Primary defense: MRR/PRR

The linear route would essentially give you benefits from 2 offensive lines at same time

So at 1 maybe you get +1 mp/range/arcane power (I think it fine giving mp and rp at same time)
Point 2: PRR
point 3: might give +1 tactics/DC
Point 4: primary save
point 5: give the 3 tier one surges
point 6: give Physical stat/defense stat
point 7: con

This probably need to be tweak but an example. Exact order would need to spend a lot more time thinking about it. The most tricky part is where to place the different core bonuses. I probably would grant the 100HP boost at 25 since I think 4 points in offense (for primary damage surge) and 21 in defense to get it a fairly common thing people do now.

I would spread it out so it take 80 point to get all the none HP/reaper charges bonus. Might take some stuff away people currently have until they hit 80 points but once you hit 80 nothing lost so I think that would be mostly acceptable to a lot of people.

Every point beyond 80 would give a HP boost and and reaper charges would not be tied exactly to when you get them like now so to get the full 13 you can get now it would be beyond level 80. weather the HP boost would need to be capped at some point am undecided on.

I would also add some additional reward at 100 and beyond like cosmetics etc that give motivation without power creep to go beyound 80 if a few more reaper charges and more HP wont be enough. Most builds don't really benefits from the 3rd tree much anyway so currently after around 100 the only benefits is already just hp and reaper charges so not a huge change.

I am sure some people will complain that people only need to get 80 reaper points to get benefits they need to get 100+ for now but I think the benefits to front loading it just a little more worth it. Am sure there be some complaints also that they rather go all defense or all offense earlier on but in the end I don't think it going to have a major impact on people ability to survive in reaper especially if we also adding sharing of points.

 

[Shear-buckler]

To anyone who is conserned about loss of customization from changing this system just imagine that there were no reaper trees and the devs proposed to replace the (entire) enhancement or destiny system with the current reaper trees. You would all agree that in comparison to those systems the reaper trees offers nothing at all when it comes to customization. Thus they are a miniscule part of the character customization in the game, so even replacing them with a single reaper track would not even make a dent. Replacing them with multiple reaper tracks could easily add customization, which is why the OPs idea is so good.

 

[Rincewind]

To anyone who is conserned about loss of customization from changing this system just imagine that there were no reaper trees and the devs proposed to replace the (entire) enhancement or destiny system with the current reaper trees. You would all agree that in comparison to those systems the reaper trees offers nothing at all when it comes to customization. Thus they are a miniscule part of the character customization in the game, so even replacing them with a single reaper track would not even make a dent. Replacing them with multiple reaper tracks could easily add customization, which is why the OPs idea is so good.

No the talk on THIS post is about the idea of reaper paths to allow customization to an idea that did not ( Sev), So, the idea is to talk about that and think of solutions. I actually don't like his idea but I know where he is coming and more important I come to the conclusion that unless there is hellfire they wont change their mind completely, so by giving them something improve their idea is my way to help we get the best version posible if the change occurs.

 

[ForeverZero]

Ok so since lag is not fixed already, nothing else should be done to reduce it? You are not making sense.

The lag reduction is not about new player, but all players. So again, you are not making sense.

Reported for personal attacks. Calling someone a troll to discredit their post is not allowed. Do better.

Indeed, currently lag is not fixxed, if you read my other posts you would know i acknowledge this, and most people will agree that it was in fact substantially better first couple days post u59. Something that wasn't and isn't reaper points didnt magically change after those few days post u59.

Reaper points currently are not broken, why try to fix something not broken and risk messing it up even more which is the track record, that we all know will likely not provide the stated lag reducing results they may intend. On top of the FACT. Yes factually. There are other, more pressing matters that need attention that are detrimental to everyone.

I'm not convinced by anyone that changing out the reaper system will do much for lag reduction. Just a way to streamline. Could i be probably wrong? Maybe. But evidence is stacked in my favor in general.

Case in point. Reaper points WERE already stramlined for performance. Remember when you would lag for god knows how long at start and throughout questing and it was attributed to excess calcs. Those changes were actually beneficial for overall server performance for the reaper system. Messing with what already works, to potentially break all over again in unknown unforeseen ways just on a "maybe attributed to lag" seema like poor choice of priority.

You're either misunderstanding or deliberately miscontrueing what I've said. Either way it doesn't matter.

Secondly you're the one who initially started fully harping on about new players this, new players that. Now after i provide any semblance of going and continueing the conversation you brought up and you cant come up with any reasonable arguement in favor, you're back pedaling and now deflecting trying to deviate the conversation by saying that "you're not making any sense".

To me it's evident based on others commenting on my posts, you specifically seem confused about it, and it's legitimately a personal problem that you aren't understanding the posts. Whether you're deliberately doing so or not, I don't know. But its your life you do you.

Lastly, I never actually called you a troll. I ASKED if you WERE trolling. See the difference? You can legitimately relook at the post. Reading comprehension is an amazing thing. Then I suggested lightly that if you were trolling to rip my break at work. Cause the post i made assuming you were, in fact not a troll. Bruh what is your deal lmao.

You're the one who again, seemingly has something out for me for god knows what reason. Because i dont agree with you maybe? Offense is taken, not given, you're the one who is being offended for no apparant reason. This is all speculation but oh well. Since nothings happend in response to your loving report, seems SSG seems to be agreeing with my point.

In your own words, and I quote "Do better."

On a side note, kind of suprised you didn't block me instead. But thats a personal choice if you get offended for having conversations.

Enjoy your day!


Edit; spelling and grammar.

 

[ForeverZero]

Wow I leave for a couple of days and the discussion got ignited.

So let me get some points first.

The objective of this pass is first to reduce lag, and help new players.

1.- I think we can all agree that reducing lag or at least trying to, is good for the game period, we know we have spaghetti code here so there are no magical solutions and a lot of things devs do end up opening other doors for the same or worst lag, that there were no way of knowing was there waiting...

Yet what sacrifices are we open to do in order to try to improve lag, there is a lot of concern about the lost of "Choice" with the change, but lets be real, after getting to a certain threshold of RP there is no really any choice, you just put all your points into two trees and fill them up, some ppl can even fill of 3 of them. so the Choice is only for new players really, we got all the power of the reaper tree, no choice to be made. so why complain then? What I'm trying to say is that, for a lot of us there is no choice to loose because we already have enough points to get everything we need. really. the rest is just 4 hp per point. ( for most) And now we can leave that discussion behind, especially if you consider my proposal to create different kind of reaper paths.

So lets talk about new players.
I have tried to bring friend into the game and I have seen other ppl do it too. my approach is usually different since I create a new character to play with them as my friend usually just tr their main to "carry them" Who do you think have more success making their friends staying in the game? Me, why? because my friends have fun contributing to the success of the quests, they are not being "carried" and just moving around seeing how other finish the quest for them without being able to participate, this is even worst the highest level you get because by lvl 21 the difference become so big in stats just by reaper points alone that they are technically useless. and being useless is no fun. That's the main issue here, to contribute and have fun, even at r1 the difference in power is becoming so big between a new and old player that the possibility to add something to pug is little to none, and just go healer is not a valid option really for anyone that didn't want to play one to begin with. So the idea is to bring power level of new players to a point where if they play decently, they can still contribute to their group, and that could be getting a little more power and even more survivability (a dead dps don't dps) this is a balance that need to be archived and this could be done with the same thresholds we got now, so you get at best this at lvl 4 10, 17, 21 etc. so your power relative to the highest reaper point don't stay too far behind. This alone is a discussion for a thread in itself.
So let talk about, they need to go through the same grind that I did logic. But we have to remember that the game we grind that power was very VERY different that the game we are playing now, and it wasn't given all at the same time as a new player get, we got to farm Class past lives, race past lives, Epic past lives, reaper points, etc... in different points in time, so the grind did felt that big, and even if some of you did it the hard way doesn't mean that it should stay the same, we all know the game have a retention problem and this ( with lag) is one of our biggest problems. we need to make it easier to get to "end game" for new players, that doesn't invalidate the work we did, we probably will have to keep farm a new system to keep us in yet another hamster wheel (probably legendary past lives) anyway. but could help players to take a year or two to get there, instead of good know how much with the amount of past lives we got now) So the devs need to take steps into make thing easier for new players and while lowering the amount for 3th lifers and so on to tr could be a great change too, the more easy change that could also help us get rid of some lag too is this one. so why not take it? what is so wrong about allowing new players to get 20 out of the 100 mobs killed in a quest instead of you killing everything? or for him to survive at least one hit more that allow him the time chance to actually practice how to avoid getting himself into danger? we are not talking about you losing power, we are talking about them gaining some so they can have fun even playing in R1 with a veteran. How much power we are going to loose or gain with the change is yet again another debate.
Some mention that new players play in static groups, that would require for them most likely to start playing with a group of friends and that is not how you want your new player experience to be around, the game need to be able to allow new players with no friends in game to enjoy the game meet new people and CONTRIBUTE. This goes from R1 heroic and epic leveling to legendary r10. How much power to they need in order to at least have and experience that let the learn the ropes its up to discussion, the fact that they need some help to catch up, I really don't think there is much to argue there. I do think there is a discussion to be had if new players should be playing r10, but that discussion is also related to how hard and how much time a new player need to invest to do so, how much time should it take? what are the minimum requirements? because I actually think is an unrealistic time that a new player need to invent in the game to be able to contribute to r10 as the game it is now, and this is probably the most straightforward way to help them reduce it. while also trying to reduce lag, while hopefully not loosing power..
and you I see you writing choice! chuu with you chuuu

I mentioned this a bit in my previous post but i will spend more time strictly clairifying.

The lag reducing nonsense seems to be coming from before u59 was a poat quite a while back on old forums. And it was indeed directed at reducing lag. But it seems to me thats no longer the case. Here is my reasoning.

The issue i have with toting lag reduction for reaper pass seems unlikely. Post u59 people seem to unanimously agree that lag was reduced to a lovingly brisk level that wasnt really an issue.

What is being the MAIN lag blame now? Not reaper points. SSG is now vehemently stating that its now DUNGEON ALERT that's now the cause of lag. Which i don't seem quite convinced on either. For other reasons i mentioned in another entirely different thread.

As i mentioned in my previous post that reaper was already reworked to reduce lag worked. And it worked fairly well. We should prioritise other issues.

To anyone who is conserned about loss of customization from changing this system just imagine that there were no reaper trees and the devs proposed to replace the (entire) enhancement or destiny system with the current reaper trees. You would all agree that in comparison to those systems the reaper trees offers nothing at all when it comes to customization. Thus they are a miniscule part of the character customization in the game, so even replacing them with a single reaper track would not even make a dent. Replacing them with multiple reaper tracks could easily add customization, which is why the OPs idea is so good.

Untill you have 156 reaper points you DO have customization options and other priorities. I do agree they're not great but its there. Placebo is a valid thing. Particuarly at lower reaper ap. You get to choose your focus. Do you want more dps, or tankiness, which do you need? Pick your respective tree for the start.

I doubtful Stand Stones game would be willing to maintain paths and come up with them and am not even sure they could do it in a way that not going to make more people unhappy then happy.

If they going to change it the way I would handle linear path is

At level 4 player do the following in the reaper UI
Choose Primary Physical stat: Str/dex
Choose Primary mental stat: int/wis/cha
Choose Primary Save: fort/wis/reflex
Choose Primary defense: MRR/PRR

The linear route would essentially give you benefits from 2 offensive lines at same time

So at 1 maybe you get +1 mp/range/arcane power (I think it fine giving mp and rp at same time)
Point 2: PRR
point 3: might give +1 tactics/DC
Point 4: primary save
point 5: give the 3 tier one surges
point 6: give Physical stat/defense stat
point 7: con

This probably need to be tweak but an example. Exact order would need to spend a lot more time thinking about it. The most tricky part is where to place the different core bonuses. I probably would grant the 100HP boost at 25 since I think 4 points in offense (for primary damage surge) and 21 in defense to get it a fairly common thing people do now.

I would spread it out so it take 80 point to get all the none HP/reaper charges bonus. Might take some stuff away people currently have until they hit 80 points but once you hit 80 nothing lost so I think that would be mostly acceptable to a lot of people.

Every point beyond 80 would give a HP boost and and reaper charges would not be tied exactly to when you get them like now so to get the full 13 you can get now it would be beyond level 80. weather the HP boost would need to be capped at some point am undecided on.

I would also add some additional reward at 100 and beyond like cosmetics etc that give motivation without power creep to go beyound 80 if a few more reaper charges and more HP wont be enough. Most builds don't really benefits from the 3rd tree much anyway so currently after around 100 the only benefits is already just hp and reaper charges so not a huge change.

I am sure some people will complain that people only need to get 80 reaper points to get benefits they need to get 100+ for now but I think the benefits to front loading it just a little more worth it. Am sure there be some complaints also that they rather go all defense or all offense earlier on but in the end I don't think it going to have a major impact on people ability to survive in reaper especially if we also adding sharing of points.

I can see the structuring working out. Though i would like being able to just specifically choose 2 stats outright and not be locked out, thats a big frustration point we have now. Particualely with caster tree. Yoy have low ap but you want caster stuff for better dcs, ect. But you want hp from tank. Dps is usually just get momento and go grim. Some of the details would def need to be ironed out but yes. As i said in a previous post, I feel as long as the new bonuses are adequate and reasonably similar to current stuff or at least competatively balanced. I'm okay with changes.

My suggestion for linear pathing would be to choose 2 or 3 main stats, as a multiselector and give linear bonuses to all 3 types of things per point. So its slow progression but ita noticable at end.

Example.
Every 1 point is 2-4 hp
Every 3 points 1-2 prr
Every 5 points 1-2 melee/ranged and double spell power. 1% dodge
Every 10 points choice of one of the momentos.
Every 20-25 points you get +1 to your 3 stats of choice. This is crucial as too low total requirements would make stats rediculous fairly early.

This is all a very very rough draft, i didnt really include much caster tree stuff like dcs since i dont play casters i can't really gauge that. Otherw could though.

Also note, given the infinite nature of reaper points. These values could be scaled down with little to no problem imo.

 

[Cyran]

I can see the structuring working out. Though i would like being able to just specifically choose 2 stats outright and not be locked out, thats a big frustration point we have now. Particualely with caster tree. Yoy have low ap but you want caster stuff for better dcs, ect. But you want hp from tank. Dps is usually just get momento and go grim. Some of the details would def need to be ironed out but yes. As i said in a previous post, I feel as long as the new bonuses are adequate and reasonably similar to current stuff or at least competatively balanced. I'm okay with changes.

My suggestion for linear pathing would be to choose 2 or 3 main stats, as a multiselector and give linear bonuses to all 3 types of things per point. So its slow progression but ita noticable at end.

Example.
Every 1 point is 2-4 hp
Every 3 points 1-2 prr
Every 5 points 1-2 melee/ranged and double spell power. 1% dodge
Every 10 points choice of one of the momentos.
Every 20-25 points you get +1 to your 3 stats of choice. This is crucial as too low total requirements would make stats rediculous fairly early.

This is all a very very rough draft, i didnt really include much caster tree stuff like dcs since i dont play casters i can't really gauge that. Otherw could though.

Also note, given the infinite nature of reaper points. These values could be scaled down with little to no problem imo.

I don't really have a issue with that. I was trying to make it so it was giving same benefits of now even if not at exactly same point value. Truthfully if the goal is to make a system that allowed reaper point sharing and ignoring other reasons then I would use a hybrid approach. A linear path for bonuses like hp, prr, dc, dodge etc like you have above. Also at certain reaper points you make choices like for example point 5 chooses the reaper surge you want. choose another at 10 etc. You can come up with other choices along path also. The choices along the linear path would require actually earning the points not shared but the other bonus like hp,stats etc could be shared.

 

[ForeverZero]

I don't really have a issue with that. I was trying to make it so it was giving same benefits of now even if not at exactly same point value. Truthfully if the goal is to make a system that allowed reaper point sharing and ignoring other reasons then I would use a hybrid approach. A linear path for bonuses like hp, prr, dc, dodge etc like you have above. Also at certain reaper points you make choices like for example point 5 chooses the reaper surge you want. choose another at 10 etc. You can come up with other choices along path also. The choices along the linear path would require actually earning the points not shared but the other bonus like hp,stats etc could be shared.

Indeed, thats why i structured it that way. I may be against sharing points, but thats likely not gonna stop them. It's an alright middle ground, It still gives players at least some way to choose a small specialty for those who may not have many reaper points, and it wont really matter to players in the long run since we'll likely have access to them all or most of them anyway.

The biggest deciding factor would be trying to come up with the splits for this like which point does what unlock ap wise.

My biggest concern is if they put a cap on it as well. Something to work for is always nice. Current system just kinda stops at 156, which most people will never see. But given enough time more people can and will. Its not like it will feasibly really famage game health long run since at 156 points as is its already 330k? Ish or so xp per point anyway. At that point is where the newer crowd with lower points can realisitically catch up. Its same with current system though.

 

[Ozz]

This:

Also, who is to say that "new" players won't quit within 1 month of playing. I have put up LFM's in R10 for some time now and, even experienced players get taken out and then rage quit or straight up say, "I can't continue, it's too difficult to go on." and lock out the LFM when they recall.
So "New" players really, can't really, be realistically expected to play in high Reapers. Now Reaper 1-4, ya, sure they have a better chance, but that's it. And if they want to venture in an R6-10, well that's above their pay grade, unless they want to enter at their own risk.

I learned long ago, even before Reaper, you go into Elite with a group you better be self sufficient and be able to take care of yourself to the best of your abilities.
Now grant it, it is always nice to play in a group, helping each other out but your expected to be able to contribute in some way or at least not be a detriment, I don't mind if others can't play as well or stay alive as long as I can and I don't look down on those players, in fact I encourage them to continue in the dungeon and keep trying their best and to learn, it's always nice to see them get a sense of accomplishment from their "own" efforts, again I will go back and get their stones if need be, to make sure they can get their end chest/reward and enjoy the game as well.

I'm a first lifer and I only have 96 Reaper points at the moment, and I sure earned them, the hard way....months worth of time. If you want others to benefit for the amount of time we put into it, make the new players buy XP pots for Reaper sharing minutes in quest, maybe the first three cores only of the tree of their choice.

What sucks for me is that there is no Assassin abilities in the Reaper Trees for me to use, only CON, DPS and some avoidance, which is nice but Casters do get a chance to raise their DC's and Spell Power. They should include an Uncanny Dodge ability and Assassinate DC and CC ability as well.

Well at the end of the day people that just quit a reaper quest because they can not survive are basicaly leaches, they have no concept of you can not recall from reaper without locking the quest and that means no one else can join

 

[ForeverZero]

Well at the end of the day people that just quit a reaper quest because they can not survive are basicaly leaches, they have no concept of you can not recall from reaper without locking the quest and that means no one else can join

I dont think I've ever experienced this specifically. At least people being leeches. Underperforming certainly but usually not just mooching. I can't remember last time someone raged and left a quest. Though to be fair. It seems my server is pretty laid back in general.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Untill you have 156 reaper points you DO have customization options and other priorities. I do agree they're not great but its there. Placebo is a valid thing. Particuarly at lower reaper ap. You get to choose your focus. Do you want more dps, or tankiness, which do you need? Pick your respective tree for the start.

Yes, you obviously have customization options, but they are so bland, boring, meaningless and obvious that it amounts to nothing of note when compared to the systems that give proper customization options. Even if you have far less than 156 points it is still directly obvious where to put the points even of hybrid characters, and you are likely spending your points very similarly for all your lives/characters.

There is no reason reaper tracks would not offer the same or even more customization.

For all the arguments against the OPs idea the "loss of customization" is the weakest. Your claim that "it will decrease build diversity and complexity" is false.

 

[ForeverZero]

Yes, you obviously have customization options, but they are so bland, boring, meaningless and obvious that it amounts to nothing of note when compared to the systems that give proper customization options. Even if you have far less than 156 points it is still directly obvious where to put the points even of hybrid characters, and you are likely spending your points very similarly for all your lives/characters.

There is no reason reaper tracks would not offer the same or even more customization.

For all the arguments against the OPs idea the "loss of customization" is the weakest. Your claim that "it will decrease build diversity and complexity" is false.

That's fair. I never intended nor did i say that the customization was great nor of note. Just specifically that it was there. And its admitedly more like a "sacrifice" more than "customization."
Which could be said to be a valid for lower points, since you have to choose what you want to prioritise in.

It's not a pleasant system broadly speaking and does indeed need reworking mechanically at some point.

I just don't see how SSG considers the system as a lag factor (seemingly SSG' main intent to change it in the first place) and dont think that -at this point in time- is right in lieu of other issues pertaining to the current and ever changing SSG statements of this issue which is so frequently its often a cause of whiplash for players.

As others have mentioned before. Reaper trees weren't well thought out in the first place. But its here to stay. You are right its bland and most people typically start in barricade.

I agree we need more options but not enough people are making suggestions.

What are your thoughts on how it could be better?

 

[Shear-buckler]

That's fair. I never intended nor did i say that the customization was great nor of note. Just specifically that it was there. And its admitedly more like a "sacrifice" more than "customization."
Which could be said to be a valid for lower points, since you have to choose what you want to prioritise in.

It's not a pleasant system broadly speaking and does indeed need reworking mechanically at some point.

I just don't see how SSG considers the system as a lag factor (seemingly SSG' main intent to change it in the first place) and dont think that -at this point in time- is right in lieu of other issues pertaining to the current and ever changing SSG statements of this issue which is so frequently its often a cause of whiplash for players.

As others have mentioned before. Reaper trees weren't well thought out in the first place. But its here to stay. You are right its bland and most people typically start in barricade.

I agree we need more options but not enough people are making suggestions.

What are your thoughts on how it could be better?

Reaper trees are not here to stay. The devs intend to replace them.
A better system is the one proposed by the OP, IMO.