Remove Trances

[Macenzie]

I had to edit it lol I was confused by the comment initially before I realised it was basically someone being a time-waster.

I am not sure how disagreeing with you makes me a time waster?

For 3 points plus some investment (1 point in knight of the chalice or warpriest for example, 5 in harper agent which is UNIVERSAL you don't even need to multiclass) you get +50 damage and tactics.

If you think any character can easily have 110 in an off stat, I still disagree with you. There are plenty of people who don't see 110 in a main stat even (though strength is easier). I am just making the point that when you say characters don't even need to multiclass to use Harpers to get +50 damage and tactics, there's precious few builds going to be able to reach +50.

Yes if your class tree's get a trance for your main stat you could hit those sorts of numbers. You just make it sound like 5 points in a universal tree will automatically get you +50 which is way off even with sentient swap items for INT.

 

[Bjond]

But I think there's a third option: grant non-trance builds something equivalent and mutually exclusive

The mutually exclusive part is hard. The first thing the player base will do is find a way to have both trance and profile and the new bonus all at the same time.

Divine Might was the dps buff for Paladins, where Fighters had power surge and Barbs had rage. If trances are removed, Paladin is going to need something to make up for it.

Paladin has it's buffs -- it's already ahead of others. IMHO, rage is the one that doesn't give enough and is pretty much no advantage at all because trance is soooo much better. Removing trance makes rage slightly nice again.

rage, including fury rage, is going to be the go to thing for melee dps and it might kill any sort of build variety.

Rage precludes precision, which is MUCH nicer than rage. So, it's rather self-balancing in that respect.

I hate short clicky stuff, makes the game a chore. This is why T5 vistani is a no-no.

I agree on short-duration buffs; they're anathema to any game. However, T5 Blessed Blades is a 3x hit cleave. It's really strong. At L15/R1 it will one-shot a pack. In Epic R4 the same pack might take 2 hits.

IMHO, I'd make both the T1 and T5 buff portions passives; keep the cleaves. Buttons should be impactful, not maintenance pressure; ie. you should want to press them for immediate visceral effect on the environment. Jump & Move keys are the prime example. Why do people run and jump around when waiting? It feels immersive.

It might be time to rethink misses and grazing hits as part of the rebalance too. I have no idea here what to suggest but maybe something where some weapon effects land on grazing, like a destruction effect—so you hit the mob, don’t do much damage

An interesting side effect of D&D style accuracy is that the more you whif, the more important critical profile becomes because the non-crits drop off first. It's why the very old D&D heavy pick builds worked (and also because back then a 20 always hit regardless). Whif whif whif whif .. GIBLETS!

The ones that are int based, do. The ones that are dex based have 110 dex. The ones that are str based have 110 str. The ones that are wisdom based have 110 wisdom. The ones that are cha based, have 110 cha. Or should have if they are building for it?

110 is insane; even 80 is on the high side for builds that don't have extra scaling on a primary attribute, such as DC for casters, DEX for shuriken, etc.. The classic high DPS TWF build cares far more about flat bonuses than attribute because those scale better. Secondaries are going to be 50~60.

For instance, 100 DEX is a really big stretch for most characters want to run a shuri build. Heroic and Racial completionist makes a huge difference for stat-scaled builds, permitting stronger DPS-oriented choices, but those characters are not common.

 

[ChickenMobile]

Interesting thought and I actually agree?

Removing Trances addresses both OP & Balance issues and simplifies code, buffing, and building. IMHO, it's a gentle 10~15% nerf to physical DPS and the only problem is loosing the Tactical DC bonus. So, "Remove Trance" requires a tactical feat rebalance. Fortunately, tacticals need a rebalance and it's really easy.

Tactic attacks are actually one of the things that is really hard to get a lot of unless you are a Fighter with the extra +20 tactic DCs from feats.
On a Charisma Paladin I could stack every charisma bonus and tactic DC possible on gear and still only hit around 100-110 instead of the 140 or so it seems you need.

110 is insane; even 80 is on the high side for builds that don't have extra scaling on a primary attribute, such as DC for casters, DEX for shuriken, etc.

I've never reached 110 in any primary stat except for barbarians or wizards.
Full class & racial Completionist with every past life, store bought pots, full filigree stat stick swap for Trance snapshot, Tenser Scrolls etc. is not the standard for most players.

 

[kmoustakas]

110 is insane; even 80 is on the high side for builds that don't have extra scaling on a primary attribute, such as DC for casters, DEX for shuriken, etc.. The classic high DPS TWF build cares far more about flat bonuses than attribute because those scale better. Secondaries are going to be 50~60.

For instance, 100 DEX is a really big stretch for most characters want to run a shuri build. Heroic and Racial completionist makes a huge difference for stat-scaled builds, permitting stronger DPS-oriented choices, but those characters are not common.

So the arguement is "It's only +40 extra damage and DC because I can't be bothered so it's fine"?

+40 is still better than everything in the game.

 

[Underflow]

A potential issue with removing Trances is that Harper Agent goes from 'trance on a stick' to just a completely wasted tree.

With Dex-To-Damage now natively on crossbows, basically every build that currently runs int would just switch to Dex instead (barring maybe DC Artificer), unless they already natively have some method of damage/hit conversion. The only exception I can think of is again, Artificer, but they'd only take 3 points in for Int-to-Hit then run Insightful Damage instead.

But then again, that's a Harper Agent issue, not a Trance issue. That tree needs some serious touching up, and maybe a real identity of its own (I'd love it if they had a 'scan' SLA that could show the target's saves/AC/etc, theme it as information gathering, throw in some fortification bypass, extra sneak bonuses, etc)

 

[kmoustakas]

A potential issue with removing Trances is that Harper Agent goes from 'trance on a stick' to just a completely wasted tree.

With Dex-To-Damage now natively on crossbows, basically every build that currently runs int would just switch to Dex instead (barring maybe DC Artificer), unless they already natively have some method of damage/hit conversion. The only exception I can think of is again, Artificer, but they'd only take 3 points in for Int-to-Hit then run Insightful Damage instead.

But then again, that's a Harper Agent issue, not a Trance issue. That tree needs some serious touching up, and maybe a real identity of its own (I'd love it if they had a 'scan' SLA that could show the target's saves/AC/etc, theme it as information gathering, throw in some fortification bypass, extra sneak bonuses, etc)

Harper agent used to be awesome ~10 years ago with the original artificer whose T5s were so bad. But the amount of powercreep we've had since has been incredible and as such the tree above t3 (because int to hit and damage are still great for some builds) is pointless.

In my humblest of oppinions, universal trees shouldn't have had t5 or capstones. But that's a different topic.

 

[LurkingVeteran]

A potential issue with removing Trances is that Harper Agent goes from 'trance on a stick' to just a completely wasted tree.

With Dex-To-Damage now natively on crossbows, basically every build that currently runs int would just switch to Dex instead (barring maybe DC Artificer), unless they already natively have some method of damage/hit conversion. The only exception I can think of is again, Artificer, but they'd only take 3 points in for Int-to-Hit then run Insightful Damage instead.

But then again, that's a Harper Agent issue, not a Trance issue. That tree needs some serious touching up, and maybe a real identity of its own (I'd love it if they had a 'scan' SLA that could show the target's saves/AC/etc, theme it as information gathering, throw in some fortification bypass, extra sneak bonuses, etc)

Probably correct, but this still seems like a secondary concern. Harper was already at the top of the list for trees needing a revamp so this changes very little. It was meant for INT caster/DC hybrids anyway like Wizard, Artie and Rogue. If they were retune so spells are more useful, this tree would still have its original use.

If anything it should probably have CHA and WIS as well, as Harper can be Bards or Druids as well (as evidenced in BG3).

 

[unbongwah]

"Don't take away literally the only reason why anyone uses Harper Agent" sounds like a problem with the tree as a whole and not just an issue with Trances.

While they're looking into balancing issues, maybe SSG can either buff the other Action Boosts to be worth taking or just give everyone Haste Boost, so Vistani Knife Fighter can stop being a de facto AP tax on pure barbarian, paladin, etc. builds.

 

[Felsyn]

I will never support removing anything from DDO. The idea you will get the same value added back is insane.

Some other skill, buff or whatever will be used in its place, just as they were before trances were added.

If you want to 'fix' it. Add more stuff to other classes.

We remove things only for lag around here and even then it is usually a very stupid decision that results in a worse and less DDO like game.

 

[Bjond]

So the arguement is "It's only +40 extra damage and DC because I can't be bothered so it's fine"?

+40 is still better than everything in the game.

You're not calculating correctly. Trances are mod/2 and mod = stat/2-5. So, with an 80 attribute, we're talking about D+17 (not 40 or 50). It's measurable, but it ends up around DPS + 7~15% depending on build.

Humans generally barely feel a 10% difference in "things that change". Some will feel it a little, some will be sorta iffy on if they feel it, some won't be able to tell. That's why I'd call it a gentle nerf to physical DPS.

It would most definitely be a hard nerf to tactical DCs, which is why I think removing trances also requires adjusting tactical DCs at the same time. If they're not already factored out into a single code path, this would be the time for doing so -- and for making them 5e'ish so they're not so "STR only".

 

[Lominal]

So the arguement is "It's only +40 extra damage and DC because I can't be bothered so it's fine"?

+40 is still better than everything in the game.

where is the 40 extra coming from?
- Insightful deadly/tactics/accuracy on items are +8.
- A toon with 90 main stat (generous, but this is where most wis/cha/int dps toons end up if they're full completionist and willing to run high investment into farming things like yugo pots/reaper helms) only gets + 20 from trance.
- Str/dex builds can hit 110 much more comfortably, but str trance is limited to non-raging. Even though Str builds can go to 130/140, that would require rage (8 base + 3 item+ 3 tree + 3 Fury= 17), and a LOT of temp buffs (titan grip -6, tenser scrolls-4, Roc cape -3, action boost curse- 6, etc). Even then, 110 mainstat with trance is 25 dmg, which is 17 more than an item.

so we get 12-17 more +dmg, when most (uber)toons are running +160 to+250. Adding in W brings the net dmg anywhere from 200-400.
depending on the build (and factoring in sneak/imbue/procs/etc), this is anywhere from 2% to 7% of your dps. This is actually one of the least impactful things to DPS (for example, weapon choice, fighting style, using a 100% vs 200% scaling imbue, etc).

This also ignore that a large number of toons use offstat trances, which I find get to around 60-70.

Are trances worth using? Yes, because even an offstat trance with 50 stat gives more damage+tactics than items (10 vs 8) which saves itemization, and there are no better ways to spend your enhancement points (in terms of dps per point spent).

Personally, I think a decent fix would just make trances "always on" to prevent swapping/snapshotting. It's also a nice QoL too for the trances that have awful recharge rates

really doesn't help your argument when you misunderstand how trances work numerically.

 

[niknight]

I'm not sure if anyone has thought of the obvious answer here: take the attack, damage, and tactics lost by removing trances and add it back through itemization. If we assume a 90 stat at cap, that's +20 to hit/damage/tactics to add back in. Add 10-12 of it through the regular enhancement bonus (on top of what it does now), 5-6 through insightful, and 2-3 through quality/artifact/profane/legendary. Given the way that modern loot is designed, once they update the effects table, all of the changes will filter out to all of the gear that currently exists (like how they changed the Ravenloft belts).

This gives everyone the benefits of having the trance, should you decide to gear for it. And trances don't have to go away. They can just change to allow you to use the given stat for your tactics DCs, instead of what it would normally use.

 

[Marshal_Lannes]

The ones that are int based, do. The ones that are dex based have 110 dex. The ones that are str based have 110 str. The ones that are wisdom based have 110 wisdom. The ones that are cha based, have 110 cha. Or should have if they are building for it?

Having run a lot of Threats in partial-PUGs and doing the 80 stat check, I can say this is a robust exaggeration. While STR and INT characters over 100 are what I'd call uncommon (but out there), anyone hitting 100 on WIS or DEX is rare. Probably very rare. Like MD artifact rare. And many, many characters aren't even hitting 80 in their main stat. I'm always bemused when the 1200 HP Warlock with a 68 CHA joins and has a great time, completely oblivious to these stat pushes. Now, normally this wouldn't matter; it's not a PvE game, you do you and game how you want. However, increasingly, the content feels designed around these individuals who possess absolute maximum upper-tier 110 abilities. The difference between a raid-ready character in Threats and a raiding dilettante is huge.

 

[kmoustakas]

where is the 40 extra coming from?
- Insightful deadly/tactics/accuracy on items are +8.
- A toon with 90 main stat (generous, but this is where most wis/cha/int dps toons end up if they're full completionist and willing to run high investment into farming things like yugo pots/reaper helms) only gets + 20 from trance.
- Str/dex builds can hit 110 much more comfortably, but str trance is limited to non-raging. Even though Str builds can go to 130/140, that would require rage (8 base + 3 item+ 3 tree + 3 Fury= 17), and a LOT of temp buffs (titan grip -6, tenser scrolls-4, Roc cape -3, action boost curse- 6, etc). Even then, 110 mainstat with trance is 25 dmg, which is 17 more than an item.

so we get 12-17 more +dmg, when most (uber)toons are running +160 to+250. Adding in W brings the net dmg anywhere from 200-400.
depending on the build (and factoring in sneak/imbue/procs/etc), this is anywhere from 2% to 7% of your dps. This is actually one of the least impactful things to DPS (for example, weapon choice, fighting style, using a 100% vs 200% scaling imbue, etc).

This also ignore that a large number of toons use offstat trances, which I find get to around 60-70.

Are trances worth using? Yes, because even an offstat trance with 50 stat gives more damage+tactics than items (10 vs 8) which saves itemization, and there are no better ways to spend your enhancement points (in terms of dps per point spent).

Personally, I think a decent fix would just make trances "always on" to prevent swapping/snapshotting. It's also a nice QoL too for the trances that have awful recharge rates

really doesn't help your argument when you misunderstand how trances work numerically.

I'm being an idiot, that's where the +40 is from. Forgot it's half the bonus :/

 

[Jeronimo]

Turn them into toggles with an occasional automatic cost. In fact, turn all 100%-uptime buffs into toggles with occasional automatic costs.

... you can do that today with Dungeonhelper.

 

[droid327]

... you can do that today with Dungeonhelper.

Sure you can use third party methods but they're imperfect and interrupt your combat and can break if you're already doing something when the timer expires, and don't suspend when you're out of a quest

 

[Sympl]

I'm not

Rather incendiary title, but Trances have become mandatory for DPS builds. This has been true for a while, but it's become common knowledge and SSG seems to be leaning into adding more. But, only class trances have Accuracy, Universals do not. Accuracy has become VERY important. There are thus only two routes now open for balance:

• Ubiquitous Trances; ie. "A Trance in every Tree!"
• Remove Trances completely

Making Trances equal is not just "add Accuracy". Some have severe refresh issues (HW) and opportunity cost varies wildly; eg. DL's trance is enroute to the nice T5s -- it's essentially free. Others require ~13 AP or levels in a second class. Eventually balance will agitate for being born with an auto-granted Trance that works off your weapon's hit/dam stat.

Also, players are whining about R10 questing being too easy and yeah, characters are a little too OP right now, particularly the physical versus magical.

Removing Trances addresses both OP & Balance issues and simplifies code, buffing, and building. IMHO, it's a gentle 10~15% nerf to physical DPS and the only problem is loosing the Tactical DC bonus. So, "Remove Trance" requires a tactical feat rebalance. Fortunately, tacticals need a rebalance and it's really easy.

Borrow a little from 5e and change Tacticals to "DC = (Character Level / 2) + (Best Attribute Mod)x1.5 + Bonuses"; basically bake the trance bonus into the natural DC and open tacticals up to non-STR builds. The CDs and effects themselves limit their "OP-ness" sufficiently that adding extreme DC requirements is overkill.

I'm not about to read through the whole thread. I only read through the OP. And I'm not going to be checking to see if anyone responded to this. I just have a few key issues with the arguments presented based on my gameplay and at least 5 other people who I know I speak for.....so likely a larger segment of the DDO population than that.

1. None of my melee builds use trances. (Okay, maybe one out of 10 or more, when I can be bothered to click it.)
2. Never once needed Accuracy. Ever. I have a build on paper that will need it, but that's 1 out of 100s.
3. A trance in every tree and removing trances completely is a false argument. It can be neither. Have trances in some trees. Like it is.
4. Trances should never be equal. Striving for equality should never be the goal.
5. Me and my crew still can't do R7 or R8 reliably....so the OP R10 players, while loud, do not speak for everyone. We die on the first mob in r10s.
6. I'm not even going to try to address tactics. I don't want the headache doing the math and I'm about to drop back into the game. This is just a brief forums check to see if anyone is complaining about lag today yet. I'm just assuming that since I disagree with everything else you're presenting that this is also heavily biased and incorrect as it applies accross the board to players in general.

Happy holidays! May you continue to enjoy playing the game your way. Stay off my lawn.

 

[GrizzlyOso]

I'm not

I'm not about to read through the whole thread. I only read through the OP. And I'm not going to be checking to see if anyone responded to this. I just have a few key issues with the arguments presented based on my gameplay and at least 5 other people who I know I speak for.....so likely a larger segment of the DDO population than that.

1. None of my melee builds use trances. (Okay, maybe one out of 10 or more, when I can be bothered to click it.)
2. Never once needed Accuracy. Ever. I have a build on paper that will need it, but that's 1 out of 100s.
3. A trance in every tree and removing trances completely is a false argument. It can be neither. Have trances in some trees. Like it is.
4. Trances should never be equal. Striving for equality should never be the goal.
5. Me and my crew still can't do R7 or R8 reliably....so the OP R10 players, while loud, do not speak for everyone. We die on the first mob in r10s.
6. I'm not even going to try to address tactics. I don't want the headache doing the math and I'm about to drop back into the game. This is just a brief forums check to see if anyone is complaining about lag today yet. I'm just assuming that since I disagree with everything else you're presenting that this is also heavily biased and incorrect as it applies accross the board to players in general.

Happy holidays! May you continue to enjoy playing the game your way. Stay off my lawn.

TLDR; none of this applies to you and you don’t play the game in a way where the topic matters, so your opinion on this subject isn’t worth reading about.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Aelastiar]

Let's get rid of epic strikes while we're at it. No joke. Homogeneity is boring and destinies add too much power.

 

[kmoustakas]

Let's get rid of epic strikes while we're at it. No joke. Homogeneity is boring and destinies add too much power.

Remember, initially almost all epic strikes were supposed to be 'builders' and 'spenders' and after lots of backlash only the fatesinger kept the 'building' aspect of it. So it could have been a lot worse!