Request DDOAudit math help

DDO Gaming

Well-known member
Some help from fellow gamers would be appreciated:

Assumptions:

- 1 character login per hour per day
- average in any given hour-block 24 hours = 2000 characters
- therefore 2000*24 = 48,000 characters per day

- each character logs in 4 times a week

thus over 90 days 1 character logs in (based on 12 weeks in 90 days) = 4*12= 48 times

and therefore 48,000 characters login 2,304,000 times (for typically one hour)

BUT a total of 688,400 unique characters have logged at least once over the past 90 days.

So...has my math gone south?
 

Xaerxiessia

Lost in Translation
based on interpreting DDOAudit graphs
analogy with job:
you're mistaking workforce and number of workers.
The amount of work accomplished by X workers during Z hours.

On the graphs, you see the average number of players characters (whatever they do, if you consider playing is working , there) present at T time sampled every 5 minutes, over a period of time of your choosing.

No matter how long any character stay connected, 5s or or 10h. So you can't convert that into a number of players , but only a quantification of the playload .

Edit : @SquireZed , thanks for making me see my typo: I meant chars not players .
 
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DDO Gaming

Well-known member
On the graphs, you see the average number of players (whatever they do, if you consider playing is working , there) present at T time sampled every 5 minutes, over a period of time of your choosing.
I'm not trying to measure lag hence I'm not concerned with what they are doing during that theorteical 1 hour-block. And I have no idea what you mean by "workforce v number of workers".

However I agree 48,000 characters questing per day is likely to hit the servers quite hard resulting in impressive lag
 

SquireZed

Well-known member
That math ain't mathing. Every single one of your assumptions is assuming a lot, and when you assume you make an ass of (yo)u and me. If your result is an order of magnitude greater than the data you're trying to explain, you have made some fundamentally incorrect assumptions. When it comes to data, trying to explain something and getting a much higher result is a sign that a major mistake was made- if you estimate why something is happening and get a low number, it's possible there are other sources inflating the number, but if you try to estimate why something is happening and get a higher number, unless your data is wrong, you are misinterpreting it badly.

DDO audit is looking at the number of characters online, not unique logins. It also isn't capturing logins at all- Someone could log in, AFK in town for a half hour while grouping or doing other things, run a quest for 45 minutes, and then hop off, and that's captured the same as someone who happens to be fingerprinted just logging in for daily dice or someone AFKing overnight because they fell asleep with the game running.
Also, DDO tends to take a significant amount of time to run a quest- sure, some quests are five minute romps but if you're running, say, Lamordia, you might be online for a couple hours to clear a chunk of the quests.
There's also some fundamental errors in your assumption around logins and character numbers, even if the time snapshotting gets ignored. If someone logs out and logs back in they are still the same person. Do you make a new character every time you play DDO? If not, then I have no idea why you're guessing that these logins reflect unique characters.
With transfers all the numbers are going to be different. Though 688,400 unique characters logged in the last three months, that is going to be extremely different than normal- some of those characters likely hadn't been touched in literally years (I know that's the case for some of mine). In a more ordinary time, that number of unique characters is likely to be significantly lower.

This is a classic case of seeing data, conflating data, and being extremely wrong about what it means. Online player counts *DO NOT* capture the uniqueness of the users/characters involved. During the transfer process, I probably spent less than an hour logging in to about a dozen characters on one server. According to your first data point, that whole time I would look like a one the whole time (unless I was on the select screen), and to the second I would incrementally increase every time I switched characters, because one character was online for the time stamp population audit but the second one would tally up over and over again.
Let's look at a hypothetical (and not an assumption- I am not trying to explain the numbers, just do some napkin math to try to establish what might be happening) that the player base has, lets say 3000 daily active players (which is low- peaks are usually about 2700 and not everyone is online at the peaks) representing a conjectural 10000 weekly active and 20000 monthly active players. If each of those 20000 active players is transferring a couple characters and checking some more (let's say five total on the 32-bit worlds), that would easily be 100,000 characters logged into in a month at a conservative estimate of five characters being logged into per account during the transfer window. Now, depending on how DDO audit tracks characters, it probably also counts pre and post transfer characters as the same, so if each monthly active player transfers three characters that's another 60,000 since Character1 on a 32-bit world and Character1 on a 64-bit world probably look unique to DDO audit. Count in also people who only logged into DDO to transfer, but didn't play, because they wanted to move their characters but aren't actively playing and those numbers might be significantly higher.

That gets us much closer (still very short of the actual number but I did do a very conservative estimate, since while a lot of people might just have a main there are others who I know have dozens of characters, sometimes on multiple worlds) without even accounting for people actually playing the games, making alts on the new servers, etc. Without knowing how DDO Audit actually tracks unique characters, then this feels like a much more accurate way of interpreting and understanding the data- transfers mean people are logging into all their characters instead of just their mains- still a very rough "math ain't mathing" estimate but without having to make assumptions correlating active player counts to unique logins which are not mutually supporting datapoints and instead looking at events we know happened and can measure behavior from, and I didn't have to make up numbers to reach my conclusion other than guessing at monthly active player counts using daily active player counts (which admittedly is very rough and not reliable).
 

droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
You should always start with data and build your approximations from it. I have no idea what data you're using to build your assumptions - you just throw out a bunch of numbers, do some math on them, and then wonder why it doesn't match a data set it's not connected to seemingly at all lol

Also I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to model, what you're hoping to discover... What's your question?
 

DDO Gaming

Well-known member
Let's look at a hypothetical (and not an assumption- I am not trying to explain the numbers, just do some napkin math to try to establish what might be happening) that the player base has, lets say 3000 daily active players (which is low- peaks are usually about 2700 and not everyone is online at the peaks) representing a conjectural 10000 weekly active and 20000 monthly active players. If each of those 20000 active players is transferring a couple characters and checking some more (let's say five total on the 32-bit worlds), that would easily be 100,000 characters logged into in a month at a conservative estimate of five characters being logged into per account during the transfer window. Now, depending on how DDO audit tracks characters, it probably also counts pre and post transfer characters as the same, so if each monthly active player transfers three characters that's another 60,000 since Character1 on a 32-bit world and Character1 on a 64-bit world probably look unique to DDO audit. Count in also people who only logged into DDO to transfer, but didn't play, because they wanted to move their characters but aren't actively playing and those numbers might be significantly higher.

That gets us much closer (still very short of the actual number but I did do a very conservative estimate, since while a lot of people might just have a main there are others who I know have dozens of characters, sometimes on multiple worlds) without even accounting for people actually playing the games, making alts on the new servers, etc. Without knowing how DDO Audit actually tracks unique characters, then this feels like a much more accurate way of interpreting and understanding the data- transfers mean people are logging into all their characters instead of just their mains- still a very rough "math ain't mathing" estimate but without having to make assumptions correlating active player counts to unique logins which are not mutually supporting datapoints and instead looking at events we know happened and can measure behavior from, and I didn't have to make up numbers to reach my conclusion other than guessing at monthly active player counts using daily active player counts (which admittedly is very rough and not reliable).

I only considered 64-bit data (you can choose to include only 64bit...besides 32 only adds upto 100 extra per day)

Ok so let's consider three seperate scenarios:

1. a player logs into 1 character and plays quests over a 3 hour period

2. a player logs into 5 characters and plays quests over a 3 hour period

3. a player logs in then AFKs for 3 hours (I find this difficult to believe because...I get booted off the system if I AFK more than 10 minutes which is reasonable since during the AFK period the server is still updating my system)

4. a player multiboxes so they can use dungeonhelper to play 4 characters simultaenously

Scenario 3 is dismissed because its only relevant for calculating lag factors (and wasting precious servertime which inturn contributes to lag. SSG are you reading this?)

From the perpective of "how many characters online within a 1 hour-block) scenarious 1 and 2 are the same. However counting unique characters is suddenly where these two scenarous become important

Scenario 4 contributes to both "number of characters online within a 1 hour-block" and "how many unique characters online" however I haven't seen many examples of multiboxing (4 on Cormyr...in 8 months) so I propose this covers a small percentage of the gamerbase

Scenario 2 is actually interesting because it explains why there are so many unique characters and I admit I didn't consider this possibility
 

DDO Gaming

Well-known member
You should always start with data and build your approximations from it. I have no idea what data you're using to build your assumptions - you just throw out a bunch of numbers, do some math on them, and then wonder why it doesn't match a data set it's not connected to seemingly at all lol

Also I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to model, what you're hoping to discover... What's your question?
this is a more traditional forum debate. A person posts a thought and interested forum-users contribute building up the entire thread.

When I posted my OP it was with this intent
 

droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
this is a more traditional forum debate. A person posts a thought and interested forum-users contribute building up the entire thread.

When I posted my OP it was with this intent

I'm not trying to disparage you or tell you youre wrong for posting. I legit dont understand what point you're trying to explore, so I'm trying to figure that out so I can discuss is appropriately

You try to calculate the total characters logging in based on assumptions - but then you already have the actual number for that.

So are you testing your assumptions? Do you want to figure out how often characters are logged in? How long they stay logged in on average?
 

DDO Gaming

Well-known member
I'm not trying to disparage you or tell you youre wrong for posting. I legit dont understand what point you're trying to explore, so I'm trying to figure that out so I can discuss is appropriately

You try to calculate the total characters logging in based on assumptions - but then you already have the actual number for that.

So are you testing your assumptions? Do you want to figure out how often characters are logged in? How long they stay logged in on average?
Lots of folks read the DDOAudit graphs and decide the game is dying.

However DDOAudit claims:
  • In the last quarter, we've cataloged 688,409 unique characters and 28,289 unique guilds
For a long while I thought the graphs were wrong but then I decided to sitdown and actually think about what they are depicting based on the way I play DDO
 

Lacci

Well-known member
Lots of folks read the DDOAudit graphs and decide the game is dying.

However DDOAudit claims:
  • In the last quarter, we've cataloged 688,409 unique characters and 28,289 unique guilds
It also claims "Data collection has not been running for an entire quarter, so the following data may not be accurate."
 

Lofen

Well-known member
... I decided to think about what they are depicting based on the way I play DDO
To give you an example of how misguided that way of thinking is, I have over 40 characters per server, and have played on multiple servers over the years. when the time came to move I logged into most if not all my characters, but let's be conservative and say 69 unique characters, to make the math easy.

If we were to assume that everyone are playing this way (for the sake of the example, my assumptions, like yours, are based on the way I play DDO) - everyone logged into 69 unique characters, so the ~ 690K unique character logins recorded are 10K unique players (completely wrong of course, but that is kind of the point).

Since DDOAudit also listed ~30K guilds, that means every DDO player has 3 guilds to their name. Ridiculous conclusion, and yet here we are.

Do you see how one bad assumption leads to a load of wrong and meaningless analysis?

A more interesting question to me is what exactly are you trying to unearth? what information would you like to have? perhaps there is a better way of going about it.
 

DDO Gaming

Well-known member
To give you an example of how misguided that way of thinking is, I have over 40 characters per server, and have played on multiple servers over the years. when the time came to move I logged into most if not all my characters, but let's be conservative and say 69 unique characters, to make the math easy.
Interesting example but that won't happen after today since the 32bits are finally being put to bed. My example is a typical day/week irrespective of character transfers and those DDOAudit graphs will only change dramatically once all lag is finally fixed which inturn will result in more players returning to play DDO
 

DDO Gaming

Well-known member
Do you see how one bad assumption leads to a load of wrong and meaningless analysis?

A more interesting question to me is what exactly are you trying to unearth? what information would you like to have? perhaps there is a better way of going about it.
so let's see how the thread unfolds as [hopefully] more folks contribute
 

Xaerxiessia

Lost in Translation
Lots of folks read the DDOAudit graphs and decide the game is dying.

However DDOAudit claims:
  • In the last quarter, we've cataloged 688,409 unique characters and 28,289 unique guilds
For a long while I thought the graphs were wrong but then I decided to sitdown and actually think about what they are depicting based on the way I play DDO
Do you recall the transfer window towards Sarlona and Orien in Feb 2023?
When the monitoring was exploding , @Clemeit announced that he was filtering all chars that did not show :
- A change of lvl.
- Having been spotted in dungeon at least once
- not leaving the same area
during the last <period of time> in order to consider real characters and not mules.
 

Clemeit

Member
Do you recall the transfer window towards Sarlona and Orien in Feb 2023?
When the monitoring was exploding , @Clemeit announced that he was filtering all chars that did not show :
- A change of lvl.
- Having been spotted in dungeon at least once
- not leaving the same area
during the last <period of time> in order to consider real characters and not mules.
That's correct. That filtering applied to a lot of the data on the Servers page (like level, class, and race distribution). The "unique characters" count is unfiltered, though.
 

erethizon1

Well-known member
I only considered 64-bit data (you can choose to include only 64bit...besides 32 only adds upto 100 extra per day)

Ok so let's consider three seperate scenarios:

1. a player logs into 1 character and plays quests over a 3 hour period

2. a player logs into 5 characters and plays quests over a 3 hour period

3. a player logs in then AFKs for 3 hours (I find this difficult to believe because...I get booted off the system if I AFK more than 10 minutes which is reasonable since during the AFK period the server is still updating my system)

4. a player multiboxes so they can use dungeonhelper to play 4 characters simultaenously

Scenario 3 is dismissed because its only relevant for calculating lag factors (and wasting precious servertime which inturn contributes to lag. SSG are you reading this?)

From the perpective of "how many characters online within a 1 hour-block) scenarious 1 and 2 are the same. However counting unique characters is suddenly where these two scenarous become important

Scenario 4 contributes to both "number of characters online within a 1 hour-block" and "how many unique characters online" however I haven't seen many examples of multiboxing (4 on Cormyr...in 8 months) so I propose this covers a small percentage of the gamerbase

Scenario 2 is actually interesting because it explains why there are so many unique characters and I admit I didn't consider this possibility
I logged in literally every character I transferred on all 6 accounts last Saturday to unpack them. They were logged in, unpacked, and then their bank was checked to make sure their stuff was there. Behavior like this totally messes with your data. They were on for less than a minute each (assuming the lag permitted that quick an unpacking and bank check).
 
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