somenewnoob
Well-known member
Yeah you can buff hires.
Rogue hires...
- Thread starter Konsumer
- Start date
Yeah you can buff hires.
Terpilar
Well-known member
From what I've observed, with augmented summonning, hope for success or greater heroism, fox's cunning and prayer, Frogo can (sometimes) disarm traps on elite in up to lvl 9 to 10 content - and he usually doesn't die when blowing up a control box ?
But seemingly, higher level rogue hirelings usually already have +4 or more modifiers to their main stats, so buffing these won't do anything there.
But seemingly, higher level rogue hirelings usually already have +4 or more modifiers to their main stats, so buffing these won't do anything there.
DYWYPI
Well-known member
During Lamannia U51 Preview 2, I had about 10–15 minutes spare to test Frogo (I can only access him via Lamannia as I don't own the relevant content).
Level 3 Frogo's 'simulated' Search skill for "visibly revealing" trap Control panels is; DC:22. In other words (with the exception of the quest Memory Lapse) he'll be able to "reveal" every trap Control panel at Level 6 (Elite). I didn't have time to test his Spot "danger" alert, but his Spot is likely lower.
His base standing Disable Device skill is suspected to be somewhere in the 20s. So if he got lucky and rolled high; it's possible he'd get a few traps at Level 10 (Elite), etc. Albeit he can critically fail Level 6 quest trap content on a poor roll. Suggesting he'll fair fairly well, Disabling at Level 5 (Elite).
Obviously if you buffed him, via Guild buffs or other "external" buff effects, which would increase his "Trap finding" skills he'd perform even better.
Level 30 Frogo's 'simulated' Search skill for "visibly revealing" trap Control panels is equal to, or over; DC:90. I didn't have enough time to test the Level 30 version thoroughly to see how much higher than 90 that value was.
Given that the highest suspected Search value required in the game [U51] is within a Raid and that has a Search DC of 98 (at the time Level 32 was the cap). Then it's reasonable to assume if Frogo was buffed he'd certainly get near that value. Outside of Raids (Hirelings cannot enter Raids) the highest suspected Search DC 'outlier' was 96 (during U51). Level 32 Elite suspected base is 90. We already know his native Search skill is at least 90...
Anyway, it's clear he can indeed reach the required base Search DCs for Level 32 quests on Elite. He can manage that without the influence of any type of buff.
He'll likely perform much better than the old fashioned Rogue hirelings at a similar level.
Level 3 Frogo's 'simulated' Search skill for "visibly revealing" trap Control panels is; DC:22. In other words (with the exception of the quest Memory Lapse) he'll be able to "reveal" every trap Control panel at Level 6 (Elite). I didn't have time to test his Spot "danger" alert, but his Spot is likely lower.
His base standing Disable Device skill is suspected to be somewhere in the 20s. So if he got lucky and rolled high; it's possible he'd get a few traps at Level 10 (Elite), etc. Albeit he can critically fail Level 6 quest trap content on a poor roll. Suggesting he'll fair fairly well, Disabling at Level 5 (Elite).
Obviously if you buffed him, via Guild buffs or other "external" buff effects, which would increase his "Trap finding" skills he'd perform even better.
Level 30 Frogo's 'simulated' Search skill for "visibly revealing" trap Control panels is equal to, or over; DC:90. I didn't have enough time to test the Level 30 version thoroughly to see how much higher than 90 that value was.
Given that the highest suspected Search value required in the game [U51] is within a Raid and that has a Search DC of 98 (at the time Level 32 was the cap). Then it's reasonable to assume if Frogo was buffed he'd certainly get near that value. Outside of Raids (Hirelings cannot enter Raids) the highest suspected Search DC 'outlier' was 96 (during U51). Level 32 Elite suspected base is 90. We already know his native Search skill is at least 90...
Anyway, it's clear he can indeed reach the required base Search DCs for Level 32 quests on Elite. He can manage that without the influence of any type of buff.
He'll likely perform much better than the old fashioned Rogue hirelings at a similar level.
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Misadventure
Killing everybody on Hardcore with pleasure.
Simply put Frogo built is within the past few years, past 2 years I think, the other rogue hirelings builts are over 10 years old.
Altra
Well-known member
Sorry for going a bit into left field, but I've read this a couple times now and I don't understand.
How do you guild buff a hire? They disappear when you're in public.
Oh, there is a ship buff that grants your Hirelings and monster summons a buff to their stats. It is a Plus 4 I think. I think that is what is being referred to here.
I am not sure as my grp does not use ship buffs but on HC server it shows up as an early ship buff (from the bar where you can hire hirelings on the ship).
Hope that makes sense!
calouscaine
Grouchy Vet
I think the issue with the hirelings currently is that the majority of them are simply out of date. The devs keep raising the difficulty checks in dungeons and damage in regards to traps/locks/spot/search, and don't seem to take into account of the limitations of skills with out gear/tomes or low stats with out feats spec'd only in those skills.
For a simple break down, a rogue/arty/ranger (hunter) will have a base of 3+level if they max out their stats with skill points, that should always be the lowest number in mind when developing a dungeon for level. For a normal dungeon the dc should be five to ten points above that number, for a hard it should be 10 to 20 points above that number, for an elite it should be 20 to 30 points above that number. But I am 99% certain that's not what's being done and absurd dc's are being used at level for the newer dungeons. Obviously reaper settings would be higher, but they are meant to be extreme challenges, those should factor in the best gear at level and buffs, and tomes - thus giving the real challenge.
But I digress, most of the hirelings I am pretty sure have out of date gear and skills, so kind of useless in anything but older content - unless you have the new perma hirelings, froggo is pretty friggin amazing when the lock or trap isn't blocked by an invisible wall or the pathing mesh was done poorly.
For a simple break down, a rogue/arty/ranger (hunter) will have a base of 3+level if they max out their stats with skill points, that should always be the lowest number in mind when developing a dungeon for level. For a normal dungeon the dc should be five to ten points above that number, for a hard it should be 10 to 20 points above that number, for an elite it should be 20 to 30 points above that number. But I am 99% certain that's not what's being done and absurd dc's are being used at level for the newer dungeons. Obviously reaper settings would be higher, but they are meant to be extreme challenges, those should factor in the best gear at level and buffs, and tomes - thus giving the real challenge.
But I digress, most of the hirelings I am pretty sure have out of date gear and skills, so kind of useless in anything but older content - unless you have the new perma hirelings, froggo is pretty friggin amazing when the lock or trap isn't blocked by an invisible wall or the pathing mesh was done poorly.
Misadventure
Killing everybody on Hardcore with pleasure.
Give it another 2 years, 2025 frogo will be useless also.
calouscaine
Grouchy Vet
You're probably right with the way the creep is going.
DYWYPI
Well-known member
Altra, some Guild Airship amenity buffs can be used to boost Hireling abilities like Rathy mentioned, for example the effects of 'Wild Grove' amenity buff. Attempting to target the hires with "beneficial spells" is probably going to be a more familiar concept to many people.
The Spot, Search and Disable DCs for traps within quests have not changed for several years... They were last readjusted: Shadowfell U19, August 2013.
As a general rule for heroic [F2P] quests for Elite difficulty the 'Spot and Search' DCs tend to increase by either: +2 or +3 DC per quest level. There are odd exceptions to the rule "outliers". Epic onwards follows the same pattern. The generic Disable DCs values tend to be ~ +10 higher, than their equivalent Search DC, but you'll get a roll for Disable.
Of course Quest Levels have increased since [U19], nonetheless the DCs will follow the same basic progression formula as they have since 2013.
Trap Disable DC, base values, generally scale with a quest's set level, however, occasionally the DDO Content Developers seem to get careless with some conversions of Legendary Content to Heroic. Therefore, occasionally you'll get a few of the newer low level Heroic quests with DCs being 2 to 4 higher, etc.
The Spot, Search and Disable DCs for traps within quests have not changed for several years... They were last readjusted: Shadowfell U19, August 2013.
https://ddowiki.com/page/Update_19_Release_Notes said:
As a general rule for heroic [F2P] quests for Elite difficulty the 'Spot and Search' DCs tend to increase by either: +2 or +3 DC per quest level. There are odd exceptions to the rule "outliers". Epic onwards follows the same pattern. The generic Disable DCs values tend to be ~ +10 higher, than their equivalent Search DC, but you'll get a roll for Disable.
Of course Quest Levels have increased since [U19], nonetheless the DCs will follow the same basic progression formula as they have since 2013.
Trap Disable DC, base values, generally scale with a quest's set level, however, occasionally the DDO Content Developers seem to get careless with some conversions of Legendary Content to Heroic. Therefore, occasionally you'll get a few of the newer low level Heroic quests with DCs being 2 to 4 higher, etc.
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calouscaine
Grouchy Vet
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
As an example:
Level 7 quests
Suspected Requirements
Spot Requirements:
Normal
Guaranteed to find everything recorded: 11
Suspected requirement to find everything: 11
Hard
Guaranteed to find everything recorded: 18
Suspected requirement to find everything: 18
Elite
Guaranteed to find everything recorded: 29
Suspected requirement to find everything: 25
Search Requirements
Normal
Guaranteed to find everything recorded: 11
Suspected requirement to find everything: 11
Hard
Guaranteed to find everything recorded: 18
Suspected requirement to find everything: 18
Elite
Guaranteed to find everything recorded: 29
Suspected requirement to find everything: 25
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Taking just level into account, assuming the wiki is right on this, base skill before any stat boosts or items or feats would be 10. But I digress, the upping of dc's based on difficulty is more than +2 or 3. And if you go above level 7 quests, say we jump to level 25 quests:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Suspected Requirements
Spot Requirements:
Normal
Guaranteed to find everything recorded: 50
Suspected requirement to find everything: 50
Hard
Guaranteed to find everything recorded: Not enough data
Suspected requirement to find everything: 66
Elite
Guaranteed to find everything recorded: Not enough data
Suspected requirement to find everything: 72
Search Requirements
Normal
Guaranteed to find everything recorded: 54
Suspected requirement to find everything: 50
Hard
Guaranteed to find everything recorded: Not enough data
Suspected requirement to find everything: 66
Elite
Guaranteed to find everything recorded: Not enough data
Suspected requirement to find everything: 72
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, this is the general data gathered currently and on the wiki, and from my experience when trapping, is pretty accurate.
The dc's usually increase from 5 to 10 points per difficulty. With stat tomes and gear this is of course manageable, but I don't think hirelings are spec'd out to be super beasts stat wise or have the best gear - though with augment summoning, warlock buffs, harper buffs, and improved augment later on, they can be slightly. I am pretty sure there isn't much if any disparity in this so far as dungeons go, whether old or new. So I am not sure why anyone would think it's only a small increase when you boost up the difficulty which scales the dungeon two to three levels higher than is stated on the challenge.
DYWYPI
Well-known member
I personally recorded the majority of those F2P Search values for Heroic (Elite) for the DDO Wiki. For traps Spot and Search DCs are typically equal.
I possibly wasn't explaining it clearly enough. I wasn't talking about Characters or their skills when I said "[...] +2 or +3 DC ...". I was referring to the Content Designers and how they set the default base Search DC for the Trap itself, and how it related to quest level for Heroic (Elite).
Like I mentioned prior; as a general rule for heroic [F2P] quests for Elite difficulty the 'Spot and Search' DCs tend to increase by either: +2 or +3 DC per quest level.
For example, in Heroic, the Quest Search DC goes: 9, 12, 15, 17, 20, 22, 25, 28, 30, 33, 35, 38, 41, 43, 46, 48, 51, 54 and 56. You'll notice those all numbers increase by either: 2 or 3, as mentioned (Post #32). Epic also loosely follows that same progression...
If it would help you visualise better?
Note: those are NOT the 'minimum requirements' for finding all traps at that level with Search. Furthermore, I already mentioned a lot of the new Legendary quests that have Heroic equivalents are also typically +2 or +4 higher for their Heroic version. Calouscaine, you already seem to have noticed some of that occurring.
I haven't done much testing of Epic Search DCs because I'd need to create some special: Test Rogues (to Fail the DCs), and solo Epic Elite on those "test rogues". Though the rule still seems to hold true; typically the newer Legendary quests have slightly higher DCs. You may notice on each individual page: I've used educated guesses on 'Suspected Requirements' (before the tables) if I don't have much data.
I can make good educated guesses on [Spot/Search] DCs. Since I've tested 1000s of traps there is a strong correlation regarding Quest level verses Spot/Search DC. I'll make an educated guess on some Epic Search DCs, starting at Level 20.
For example, 59, 61, 64, 67, 69, 72, 74, 77, 80... The same loose rule is being obeyed.
I'm not bothering going past Level 27 in this table.
Skipping to Level 30 'Mask of Deception' its trap Search DC is 89 (likely +4 higher than base), [...], Level 32 'Dread Sea Scrolls' is 90 the difference is narrower compared to Level 30 Mask of Deception, [...] and Level 34 Eyes of Stone (Epic Elite), is between 93 and 95.
Of course Level 32 'Legendary Vision of Destruction' (Epic Elite) has a Search DC of 98, which is possibly +8 higher than base. But, that's an outlier so perfectly fine.
There are another 14 Levels at Epic after 20. Just for fun, let's just assume on (Epic Elite) ALL the Search DCs did increased by 3 each level: 14 × 3 = 42. We know base Search DC (Level 20) is 59, thus 59 + 42 = 101 The calculation equates to 101, and we already know Level 34 'Eyes of Stone' DC is between 93 and 95. What I said still holds true.
Where it can become problematic is when Developers, e.g. SteelStar or Lynnabel alter builds, Enhancements, Character progression or significantly change item bonuses or scaling and Cannith Crafting, etc. Those base quest trap DCs on Elite are still going to increase by either: +2 or +3 regardless. I mentioned previously that the Content Designers were careless with some conversions of Legendary Content to Heroic.
For example, Quest Level 3 the default Search DC is 15. Whereas in the Level 3 quest 'Basic to Basics' the DC is 17, i.e. +2 higher. That +2 DC increase is a significant difference for a Level 3 Character to deal with. Perhaps a default path Level 3 human Rogue Assassin, Search skill is around: 8, generic Search items would give a +3 Search bonus. So instead of the player needing to find another 4 for their Search skill Modifier, they'll need to find 6 more for the newer quest – if you get the gist. ?
I possibly wasn't explaining it clearly enough. I wasn't talking about Characters or their skills when I said "[...] +2 or +3 DC ...". I was referring to the Content Designers and how they set the default base Search DC for the Trap itself, and how it related to quest level for Heroic (Elite).
Like I mentioned prior; as a general rule for heroic [F2P] quests for Elite difficulty the 'Spot and Search' DCs tend to increase by either: +2 or +3 DC per quest level.
For example, in Heroic, the Quest Search DC goes: 9, 12, 15, 17, 20, 22, 25, 28, 30, 33, 35, 38, 41, 43, 46, 48, 51, 54 and 56. You'll notice those all numbers increase by either: 2 or 3, as mentioned (Post #32). Epic also loosely follows that same progression...
If it would help you visualise better?
| Level | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 |
| Suspected base: Spot/Search (Traps on Elite) | 9 | 12 | 15 | 17 | 20 | 22 | 25 | 28 | 30 | 33 | 35 | 38 | 41 | 43 | 46 | 48 | 51 | 54 | 56 | 59 |
Note: those are NOT the 'minimum requirements' for finding all traps at that level with Search. Furthermore, I already mentioned a lot of the new Legendary quests that have Heroic equivalents are also typically +2 or +4 higher for their Heroic version. Calouscaine, you already seem to have noticed some of that occurring.
I haven't done much testing of Epic Search DCs because I'd need to create some special: Test Rogues (to Fail the DCs), and solo Epic Elite on those "test rogues". Though the rule still seems to hold true; typically the newer Legendary quests have slightly higher DCs. You may notice on each individual page: I've used educated guesses on 'Suspected Requirements' (before the tables) if I don't have much data.
I can make good educated guesses on [Spot/Search] DCs. Since I've tested 1000s of traps there is a strong correlation regarding Quest level verses Spot/Search DC. I'll make an educated guess on some Epic Search DCs, starting at Level 20.
For example, 59, 61, 64, 67, 69, 72, 74, 77, 80... The same loose rule is being obeyed.
I'm not bothering going past Level 27 in this table.
| Level | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 |
| Suspected base: Spot/Search (Traps on Elite) | 59 | 61 | 64 | 67 | 72 | 74 | 77 | 80 | – | – | – | – | – | – | – |
Skipping to Level 30 'Mask of Deception' its trap Search DC is 89 (likely +4 higher than base), [...], Level 32 'Dread Sea Scrolls' is 90 the difference is narrower compared to Level 30 Mask of Deception, [...] and Level 34 Eyes of Stone (Epic Elite), is between 93 and 95.
Of course Level 32 'Legendary Vision of Destruction' (Epic Elite) has a Search DC of 98, which is possibly +8 higher than base. But, that's an outlier so perfectly fine.
There are another 14 Levels at Epic after 20. Just for fun, let's just assume on (Epic Elite) ALL the Search DCs did increased by 3 each level: 14 × 3 = 42. We know base Search DC (Level 20) is 59, thus 59 + 42 = 101 The calculation equates to 101, and we already know Level 34 'Eyes of Stone' DC is between 93 and 95. What I said still holds true.
Where it can become problematic is when Developers, e.g. SteelStar or Lynnabel alter builds, Enhancements, Character progression or significantly change item bonuses or scaling and Cannith Crafting, etc. Those base quest trap DCs on Elite are still going to increase by either: +2 or +3 regardless. I mentioned previously that the Content Designers were careless with some conversions of Legendary Content to Heroic.
For example, Quest Level 3 the default Search DC is 15. Whereas in the Level 3 quest 'Basic to Basics' the DC is 17, i.e. +2 higher. That +2 DC increase is a significant difference for a Level 3 Character to deal with. Perhaps a default path Level 3 human Rogue Assassin, Search skill is around: 8, generic Search items would give a +3 Search bonus. So instead of the player needing to find another 4 for their Search skill Modifier, they'll need to find 6 more for the newer quest – if you get the gist. ?
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calouscaine
Grouchy Vet
Aha, I see what you mean. Base quest, not difficulty setting.
