Shadowdancer Epic Strke

[VinoeWhines]

Another thing that should be looked into is that:

Rogue
Dark Hunter
Ninja Spy

Should be able to open doors, chests, dialogue and interact in Stealth and not have to Re-Stealth for every exchange they do if that is part of their sub class skill. The -20 Jump and Tumble should have a way to negate that as well in upper Levels(lvl 16+).

Would even venture to say that they can attack in and stay in Stealth with maybe a minus to STR or DEX until higher level where they can negate it.
Attacking in Stealth would help to not alarm further mobs, maybe giving Stealth attacks a less Radar(Field of View/Aggro) to alert mobs further out.

Of course getting Hit with something would break Stealth but there should be the mechanic of staying in Stealth for these Class Characters in game.
Stealth Play would at least have a reason to exist in upper content; as now anything in Dungeon, Alerts the whole room to your location, forcing you to abandon any and all forms of sneak in game.

 

[droid327]

I have a martial char with SD T5, it's not bad. The epic moment is pretty strong. You need a build built around sneak attack to get enough value though - 30s of perma invis is powerful

Also the value of the mantle of course decreases with skulls, so that skews some people's opinions

I think it just needs a few tweaks:

- T5, change the temp HP from on kill to on crit. By L30 when you can take it, the tHP you get are not at all meaningful

- Fix Darkness so it actually enables sneak attacks as described

- remove the few "from stealth" attack requirements... Ain't nobody actually gonna stealth for that lol...

I feel like a "blind=helpless" in T5 akin to LD's "trip=helpless" would be a great way to define the tree too, especially since it has 15% helpless damage in the mantle

 

[woq]

Also the value of the mantle of course decreases with skulls, so that skews some people's opinions

The opposite. Shadow Mantle is one of the better ways to make concealment relevant in high reaper - a dragon lord or any other toon with displacement in shadow mantle is extremely surprisingly tanky and in t5 gmof epic moment happens to be one of the tankiest things you can have in r10 that is "life agnostic" on a martial character.

The crappy part is that GMOF T5 synergizes better with the mantle than SD T5 does.

 

[VinoeWhines]

That's the problem Shadow Dancer pairs better with other Trees as a side Tree and doesn't Stand alone by itself at all.
In upper Reapers(R8-10) the Shadow Dancer Mantle is very weak. You get 0% Incorporeal and maybe 15-20% Displacement. No way to induce Helpless Damage given the Tree gives 18% Helpless Damage.

T5 should give some Heals on kill WITH +Temp Hit Points.
The Tree NEEDS a way to draw Aggro with a Distraction to Enable Sneak Attack Damage.

The Epic Strike T4 should be how either Quick Cutter or Adrenaline both get boosted Damage(Adreniline's 225% or 3d6per Character every 2seconds Damage).

Bring Darkness should be doubled if you have the First Blood Feat, like Ruin Intensified doubles Greater Ruin and Ruin.(and yes fixed to work.)
Since its a Stealth Tree, part of the signature is "to be in stealth" but for Casting though it shouldn't be required; but I would think, if you stealth, you should get boosted Sneak Attack Casting.
This could tie into Sly of Hand(Really a Heroic Level 2 Enhancement?) where it should be the Scrolls and Wands you cast should be based on Assassinate DC for Magic Scrolls or Sneak Dice for Damage ones.

Shadow Dancer is great as a Side Piece for others but as a Rogue, other classes get more out of it with their inherent abilities(like DragonLord or Caster).

When the devs made the changes to Epic Destinies, Shadow Dancer was at the bottom of the priority list to make it better. They threw in Caster to it and never focused on making the Stealth part better, just slapped on last minute side parts to complete the Tree.

They could of just lowered Meld into Darkness from 95% uncapped Dodge to 35-50% Uncapped Dodge and put it in Tier IV-V and it would of been ok.

No reason to remove Shadow Manipulation and give it to Shiradi Champion, that no range(Safe Distance attack) would take.
Shiradi pretty much kept everything majorly unchanged (Double Rainbow, Otto's Whistler, Prism, etc.)
Grandmaster of Flowers got boosted with free Elusive Target(kept Everything is Nothing) and Alignment Damage and Element Absorptions.

Every other Tree got boosted for its Class.

Ruin Intensified
Mass Frog
Dire Charge
Though Draconic got a neutered version of Daunting Roar.
Fury of the Wild Tree overall
etc.

 

[VinoeWhines]

Imagine if Shiradi Champion made the majority of its useful things on Cast Only and a few things on Range Attack.
And Hunts End got removed.
Double Rainbow only works on Casting.

 

[Shear-buckler]

The epic strike with meld is a joke. Quick cutter deals far more damage, is aoe and grants a dodge bonus with no investment.

 

[droid327]

The Tree NEEDS a way to draw Aggro with a Distraction to Enable Sneak Attack Damage.

It does have some blind procs which enable sneaks, but yeah it's not great support and paltry uptime

It's much better for ranged with Shiradi Stay Good since that just straight up blinds on hit 50%

 

[Svirfneblin]

Dear Santa all I want for Christmas is an improved shadow dancer tree

You have nine days

 

[Fisto Mk I]

That's the problem Shadow Dancer pairs better with other Trees as a side Tree and doesn't Stand alone by itself at all.

My PM triple-Illusionist like many others take T5 for Weird, so you clearly incorrect.

You get 0% Incorporeal and maybe 15-20% Displacement.

Maybe? Maybe you better talk about something you really know? 75-30 = 45. It's almost full amount Displacement ever in R10.

T5 should give some Heals on kill WITH +Temp Hit Points.

No. What part Illusion/Assassinate themed three must heal you thematically? Good as it.

The Tree NEEDS a way to draw Aggro with a Distraction to Enable Sneak Attack Damage.

No reason to remove Shadow Manipulation and give it to Shiradi Champion, that no range(Safe Distance attack) would take.

Exactly! But stop talk nonsense about "safe ranged attack", no one ranged take it just because it selector with HE, non-brain choice for any ranged. Other way all ranged take Beguile becuz why not?!

The Epic Strike T4 should be how either Quick Cutter or Adrenaline both get boosted Damage(Adreniline's 225% or 3d6per Character every 2seconds Damage).

T4 Epic Strike clearly must be buffed, currently it taken mostly for perma-run 5% uncapped Dodge... if taken at all. Executioner Strike, Mass or like must be put here.

Grandmaster of Flowers got boosted with free Elusive Target(kept Everything is Nothing) and Alignment Damage and Element Absorptions.

Stop talking about GMoF like it main tree, in currently state it have worse position than SD. Literally no one build take T4/T5 (Ranged have Shiradi, Melee - LD and Casters - DI as main trees) and for Element absorption it's only Fire becuz Fire stance for more damage, you just not have enough AP to take more.

It's much better for ranged with Shiradi Stay Good since that just straight up blinds on hit 50%

Exactly. It's why all ranged who use SD strike instead FS run in Stay Good instead Stay Loud. 8)

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Dear Santa all I want for Christmas is an improved shadow dancer tree
You have nine days

And return emoticon to reactions too, pls!!! 8)

 

[droid327]

No. What part Illusion/Assassinate themed three must heal you thematically? Good as it.

I think a "feed on death" type ability is perfectly thematic for an assassin archetype

And balance wise, it's not good at all, it's woefully underpowered for L30+ content

 

[Fisto Mk I]

I think a "feed on death" type ability is perfectly thematic for an assassin archetype

Temporal "illusion" HP steal from victim seems fully thematical for me, real HP... no, not at all. It's vampiric thematical, not assassins.

 

[droid327]

Temporal "illusion" HP steal from victim seems fully thematical for me, real HP... no, not at all. It's vampiric thematical, not assassins.

You're consuming their shadow. That's not an illusion, that's taking their real life force. By L30 you're part shadow yourself, the darkness restores you

 

[VinoeWhines]

My PM triple-Illusionist like many others take T5 for Weird, so you clearly incorrect.

I already mentioned that for Casters(especially illusionists) it's Great. Your cleary lacking comprehension of what I've said many times for Casters.

Maybe? Maybe you better talk about something you really know? 75-30 = 45. It's almost full amount Displacement ever in R10.

I talk about what I know as I play Rogue in R10 and see ZERO incorporeal and Displacement from Mantle is Zero. You have to spam Displacement scroll/clicky to get Blur Plus. The -30 Displacement is not accurate in R10 as I rarely as a Rogue see Displaced on Live in R10. (Mobs also have True Seeing so bye bye Displacement. What I'm saying is from First Hand experience, not theory Talking. Displacement is not 45% in R10 on Live. In Theory, yes, but not working on Live.

No. What part Illusion/Assassinate themed three must heal you thematically? Good as it.

No. What part of DDO are you basing your arguement = D&D? That ship sailed long ago. Nothing of ddo resembles what it once was. Rules are broken. Mystery Feats get locked in.
Castors can Heal. Shadow Dancer was forced from a Martial Tree to take on Caster abilities. so just as Spell Point orbs are left behind on kill for your Spell Point regeneration's, so too can Heal Spells be put in. If you steal their Shadow, you should steal some of their Hit Points and it already has Temp HP in there. Not Good as is.

Exactly! But stop talk nonsense about "safe ranged attack", no one ranged take it just because it selector with HE, non-brain choice for any ranged. Other way all ranged take Beguile becuz why not?!

I know Exactly. And exactly you can't compare the nonsense of being 100 yards away and whittling down a mob(safely) as to fighting them FULL HEALTH as a Stealth Melee build. Not saying TANK or Shield Guardian Fighter or Barbarian but a Stealth player(particularly Rogue). Just because it's a selector to Hunt's End(HE) doesn't change the fact that Shiradi wouldn't necessarily NEED that ability BUT Shadow Dancer DOES Need it AND had it AND got removed for no solid Reason is what I'm stating.
So you know, I do Range, with a Throwing Dagger but prefer to sneak in and Melee in Stealth and Sneak around undetected and that part got bamboozled.

Stop talking about GMoF like it main tree, in currently state it have worse position than SD. Literally no one build take T4/T5 (Ranged have Shiradi, Melee - LD and Casters - DI as main trees) and for Element absorption it's only Fire becuz Fire stance for more damage, you just not have enough AP to take more.

Let's Start:
(Greater) Master of Flowers has:

• Cores
  • +25 Max HP per Core
  • Material Bypass
  • Alignment Bypass
• Tiers
  • Pass Through Enemies on Tumble (but Mantle is of little Help).
  • Quick way to replenish Ki (ya the alternative Heal is weak)
  • Drifting Lotus is an AOE stun plus Force Damage(not as great as Quick Cutter but gets a Stun/Helpless proc).
  • Lotus Blade(if you need it, which could take Deflect Arrows for non Monks)
  • Fire/Cold/Electric/Acid absorption of 25% and Double if you have a stance. Those absorptions help out allot on upper Reaper D.O.T.s
  • The 15% Law/Good/Chaos/Evil can be of benefit situationally, in Raids also.
  • The Big one...Everything is Nothing, AOE bye bye button or Paralyzed. (Free Elusive Target Buff...and if you already have it DOUBLE!)
  • Epic Moment.... I never used it but 5% Banishment chance isn't too shabby as a Pro-Active attack(not Human Pinata Shadow Dancer).

That's a nice chunk of survivability and bypass in the Tree, that got somethings improved on since the Epic Destiny changes.

Shadow Dancer lost the majority of it's Martial/Stealth abilities and became a nice illusion Caster Tree.

You could take as much as you want in Points in the Tree(GMoF) and choose to use a different Epic Strike if you want.
You do get 25% absorption in elements if you train them in the Tree but yes only one gets doubled if your a Monk but that's a good chunk of absorption.

Shadow Dancer just needs a few Add Ons(well technically just put back what it lost and reduce Meld into Nothing down to 35-50% Uncapped Dodge in Tiers IV-V and it would be a Win, well, congratulations you stayed the same Epic Destiny but less, if it just put back what it was).

The proposed....The Heal on stealing their Shadow "is" Stealing HP(not Vampire) Just like the "Quickening" in Power. What do thieves get when they steal your wallet? They get your wallet, not a wallet that disappears after 10 seconds but permanent wallet.(yes it can get lost or stolen again but it's yours till then.)

 

[Qrvar]

I'm honestly not sure if putting self-healing (and / or especially lifestealing) in SD is a good idea. Those abilities have been notoriously underpowered in DDO for years, and I don't think that's set to improve anytime soon. In addition, Temp HP is more useful, because 1) for regular mobs it's an almost infinite pool of HP that, if you stay within it, you won't need healing; 2) for tougher fights, it's an addition to your total HP pool, meaning you're less likely to be one-shot.

That said, for an epic ability, the amount of temp HP should be significantly increased (by 200~300% at least). SD in T5 (level 30) and with Mantle requirement gives you 5*SA dice (so ~150 HP?), not sure if it stacks with itself. For comparison, Blightcaster gets its WIS score in temp HP, stacking *3 at level 6 (so 120~150 HP), and stacking *5 (~300+ HP) by level 18.

N.B. This is not a call to neuter Blightcaster, this is a call to un-neuter Shadowdancer.

 

[Ying]

Shadowdancer is actually a decent caster tree now. But still pretending to be a martial tree for some reason.

T5 SD was one of the best sorc instakiller builds with T5 Falconry/Capstone Feydark Illusionist for years.

 

[VinoeWhines]

Ya nice Caster Tree.

 

[VinoeWhines]

I'm honestly not sure if putting self-healing (and / or especially lifestealing) in SD is a good idea. Those abilities have been notoriously underpowered in DDO for years, and I don't think that's set to improve anytime soon. In addition, Temp HP is more useful, because 1) for regular mobs it's an almost infinite pool of HP that, if you stay within it, you won't need healing; 2) for tougher fights, it's an addition to your total HP pool, meaning you're less likely to be one-shot.

That said, for an epic ability, the amount of temp HP should be significantly increased (by 200~300% at least). SD in T5 (level 30) and with Mantle requirement gives you 5*SA dice (so ~150 HP?), not sure if it stacks with itself. For comparison, Blightcaster gets its WIS score in temp HP, stacking *3 at level 6 (so 120~150 HP), and stacking *5 (~300+ HP) by level 18.

N.B. This is not a call to neuter Blightcaster, this is a call to un-neuter Shadowdancer.

The thing is, is that its suppose to have a way to Heal but got neglected. It shouldn't be either/or but have also a functioning Heal.
I agree that the Temp HP on kill should be in the ~300 range(meaning *10 sneak dice, as a Tier V).

The Mantle(in Tier IV) should have the Unholy feeding 5%, then boosted in Tier V to give ~300 Temp HP.

 

[VinoeWhines]

There should be a way to get Improved Defensive Roll, in the Cores or Tiers if you have Defensive Roll as a Feat. Maybe Core II with Dimension Door.
Again Evasive-illusion Tree.

 

[VinoeWhines]

They need to put back Tier I Stealthy how it was in that it gave Hide and Move Silent Skills along with Assassinate bonus' together and not seperate them and waste 3 points to get the same thing from before:

	Stealthy: Passive Bonus: +[2/4/6] to Hide and Move Silently skills. +[2/4/6] to Assassinate DC (if you have Assassinate). Hide in Plain Sight at rank 3.
EDP Cost: 1	Ranks: 3	Progression: 0	No requirements

Cover of Darkness should get the +1/2/3 Reflex Save.
They really need to re-align the Epic Destiny to a semblance of what it was before, thematically for the Martial Part, the Caster part is pretty decent, though it makes more sense for it to have gone to Magus of the Eclipse, thematically and Arcane Spherically.
If they're not then Weird should follow the same DC formula as Dhampir's Ascended Bite.
Ascended Bite: (DC 16 + Highest of STR/CON/CHA Mod + Stunning Bonuses + Enchantment Bonuses).
Weird: (DC20 + highest of INT/WIS/CHA mod + Assassinate Bonuses + Illusion spell bonuses).