Should Visage, Coup de Grace, and Sundered Soul be based on assassinate?

[Tilomere]

Monks, rogues, and falconry users were balanced by requiring assassinate to instant kill. This creates an investment requirement and pacing (debuffing) or stealth DC buildup.

Tactics and class Skill based checks require substantially less investment, and don't require pacing (debuffing) or stealth DC buildup. Propose to fix that by bringing all melee instant kills under same paradigm, to bring melee into balance.

This will also enable a game space to be filled by one or more players who debuffs saves instead of only % dmg modifiers.
It also will allow pacing to be established universally for all builds.
It also will allow dps casters greater access to save debuffs from those filling game space of save debuffer, so they can more heavily focus on DPS.

What say you?

 

[AbyssalMage]

Remove assassinate DC. Simpler fix. Keeps rules closer to 3.5 D&D (yeah, I know that ship sailed but reminding the Dev's to quit deviating is important).

Heck, D&D 2024 (???) didn't find use in complicating DC's more than needed. K.I.S.S. is a principal that developers need to understand before they work on development.

 

[Elves United]

Doing this would simply eliminate visage, sunder soul and coup de grace from use as the classes that use it have no assassinate support in their enhancement trees and the gear those classes use generally don't have assassinate bonuses. It would be a hard nerf that eliminates gameplay not balances it.

 

[Tilomere]

Doing this would simply eliminate visage, sunder soul and coup de grace from use as the classes that use it have no assassinate support in their enhancement trees and the gear those classes use generally don't have assassinate bonuses. It would be a hard nerf that eliminates gameplay not balances it.

I doubt it is needed because strength is a higher stat, but add the assassinate bonuses in tree as needed to balance vs. other melee, most trees average +3 assassinate bonus anyways, which is a small amount, and monks have +0 for their primary tree. It wouldn't be a hard nerf that eliminates gameplay, anymore than QP, Assassinate, Death from Above, or what's that DH thing no one has ever used called is eliminated from gameplay. The formula can take into account base stat and available tree bonuses. If other melee and ranged can slot it, then these melee can.

It will also unlock falcony synergy as an available build adding even more gameplay.

 

[Elves United]

I doubt it is needed because strength is a higher stat, but add the assassinate bonuses in tree as needed to balance vs. other melee, most trees average +3 assassinate bonus anyways, which is a small amount, and monks have +0 for their primary tree. It wouldn't be a hard nerf that eliminates gameplay, anymore than QP, Assassinate, Death from Above, or what's that DH thing no one has ever used called is eliminated from gameplay. The formula can take into account base stat and available tree bonuses. If other melee and ranged can slot it, then these melee can.

It will also unlock falcony synergy as an available build adding even more gameplay.

My thought would be that non-hybrid character should ever be put in the position where they need to boost and gear for more than one type of DC. ( assassinate or tactics or spell )

Assassins and Falconers ( never met a falconry capstoner ) have assassinate.
Dragonlords have tactics.
Barbarians don't really have any but charisma based intimidate probably doesn't get that high so they're at a disadvantage anyway.
Bards have enchantment spell DC. ( my memories of coup de grace is that it was notoriously unreliable )

Perhaps what really should be done rather than nerf other character types is to shore up assassinate users. Make assassinate a tactic and any ability ( including trances ) or gear that boosts all tactics also boosts assassinate.

 

[PraetorPlato]

Barbarians don't really have any but charisma based intimidate probably doesn't get that high so they're at a disadvantage anyway.

Intimidate gets very high—on a low life build with cha as an off stat, you can hit 120 without squeezing out every last drop. If you care about it, no fail isn't very hard (easier than spell DC and assassinate no-fail)

Monk currently has to boost both assassinate and tactics.

 

[Bjond]

What say you?

I think you're indirectly requesting DC sanity. Laudable, but asking it of the asylum is rather nutty.

 

[PraetorPlato]

I think you're indirectly requesting DC sanity. Laudable, but asking it of the asylum is rather nutty.

Tilo wants higher dcs...

 

[Blerkington]

Based on his posting history, any game changes proposed by Tilo should be treated with extreme suspicion.

This is someone with zero interest in improving the game for its players. The goal is just to show everyone that he is the smartest guy in the room, with zero concern about where and how hard the nerf hammer may fall afterwards.

 

[mikarddo]

Barbarians don't really have any but charisma based intimidate probably doesn't get that high so they're at a disadvantage anyway.

150 is certainly doable.

 

[Bjond]

150 is certainly doable.

And intimidate is one of those ultra-useful skills every good melee will try to pickup and build if they can, especially if they have IUD to protect them from Doom babies.

BTW, builder/spender works for MMOs built around long slow fights; eg. old FFXI had a truly amazing build/spend system with intraparty synergy, but XP'ing there consisted of pulling one critter and then spending 15~30s or so to kill it (rinse & repeat). DDO is built on many short fast fights; ie. DDO trash really is built on the zergling model -- it's only dangerous because of numbers.

In order for DDO to make build/spend work well, it would need to rewrite EVERY dungeon for high-hp mini-boss fights without any zergling trash. That all encounters are heaped with zerglings is what demands a fast-stomp playstyle and why build/spend will drag down ANY class or style that tries to rely on it.

 

[Eme]

I'd rather they put Quivering Palm back to how it was

 

[Konsumer]

no

 

[Drunken.dx]

Based on his posting history, any game changes proposed by Tilo should be treated with extreme suspicion.

This is someone with zero interest in improving the game for its players. The goal is just to show everyone that he is the smartest guy in the room, with zero concern about where and how hard the nerf hammer may fall afterwards.

EXACTLY.

OP has a history of proposing changes that would be detrimental to DDO's health

 

[Kimbere]

Monks, rogues, and falconry users were balanced by requiring assassinate to instant kill. This creates an investment requirement and pacing (debuffing) or stealth DC buildup.

Tactics and class Skill based checks require substantially less investment, and don't require pacing (debuffing) or stealth DC buildup. Propose to fix that by bringing all melee instant kills under same paradigm, to bring melee into balance.

This will also enable a game space to be filled by one or more players who debuffs saves instead of only % dmg modifiers.
It also will allow pacing to be established universally for all builds.
It also will allow dps casters greater access to save debuffs from those filling game space of save debuffer, so they can more heavily focus on DPS.

What say you?

 

[Oliphant]

Shadow Dancer fan?

 

[Spook]

Not unless assassinate becomes a tactic

 

[Dunspartacus]

Gods no.

I still hate what they did to quivering palm, now like only 1 flavor of monk (melee ninja spy) can use that ability, and it's still worse for them than when it was a stunning DC. If you add it to other abilities those trees need to get assassinate DCs somewhere, which doesn't really make sense for a Bard/Barb/DL. Heck paladin technically has a insta-kill in KotC tier 5, should that have an assassinate DC?

Just really wish they'd bring assassinate into the general DC umbrella to add a lot more viability to those moves.

 

[Tilomere]

Heck paladin technically has a insta-kill in KotC tier 5, should that have an assassinate DC?

They had to rebalance that from 6 seconds to 30, and add health and % chance modifiers in, remove multistrike proccing, and just nerf it over and over. If it had an assassinate base check from the start that would not have been necessary, as the investment would have justified the value return.

I forgot that, been awhile since I played a KoTC. It is a good example of inconsistent design eating up time and resources. But really, should all melee instant kills fall under the same assassinate based paradigm? Design within a balanced paradigm from the start. Measure twice, cut once.