Simplify Kensei

[Blaster]

Playing some Mindcleaver of late has me interacting with the Kensei tree, and something that has always stood out to me is how convoluted the weapon focus line is within the tree itself. Currently there's nine options, with several combining different weapon types, IE piercing, ranged, bludgeoning, etc all in one line. As good as that may sound it's actually rather confining.

Fighters are supposed to be masters of weapons, and yet, depending on the focus line you take, you're usually locked into a single weapon, while barbarians or dragonlord archetypes for instance can use any weapon they want, usually only limited by what improved critical feat they take. Classes like monks and paladins are typically similarly set into one weapon type but that's because they have unique mechanics like being centered or deity restrictions. Kensei-focused fighters shouldn't have similar narrow restrictions, but rather more broad ones.

Since you have to take a weapon focus and weapon specialization feat in order to progress up the focus line in the Kensei tree, why not set the options in the tree to match the focus/specialization line, reducing clutter and simplifying the line to 5 options instead of 9. The focus and specialization feats already align with the improved critical/overwhelming critical feat line, so a natural path towards simplification is already there.

Something else I've bought up during a previous balance pass, and that's removing the charge/recharge part of Opportunity Attack. The attack already has a cooldown, so why limit it with 2 charges? You want Kensei to be more competitive with other trees, why not make it so an attack -- which costs 2 ap to get -- is always available when not on cooldown like other attacks in the tree? SSG already removed the charge/recharge from Adrenaline years ago, and it's one of the more powerful single attacks in the game, so it can't be because you think Opportunity Attack being available more than 2 standing charges would be OP.

None of the above changes I think would bring Kensei up to a level where it would overpower other trees, in fact it still lags heavily behind fighter's own archetype and other melee trees, but just simplify it a little and align it with already existing systems in the game.

 

[Baconator]

Since you have to take a weapon focus and weapon specialization feat in order to progress up the focus line in the Kensei tree, why not set the options in the tree to match the focus/specialization line, reducing clutter and simplifying the line to 5 options instead of 9. The focus and specialization feats already align with the improved critical/overwhelming critical feat line, so a natural path towards simplification is already there.

Something else I've bought up during a previous balance pass, and that's removing the charge/recharge part of Opportunity Attack. The attack already has a cooldown, so why limit it with 2 charges? You want Kensei to be more competitive with other trees, why not make it so an attack -- which costs 2 ap to get -- is always available when not on cooldown like other attacks in the tree? SSG already removed the charge/recharge from Adrenaline years ago, and it's one of the more powerful single attacks in the game, so it can't be because you think Opportunity Attack being available more than 2 standing charges would be OP.

Good point. The entire weapon spec is too broad.
As to Opportunity Attack your proposal is spot on. Especially considering its only a 6 second duration.

 

[Coffey]

Fighters are supposed to be masters of weapons, and yet, depending on the focus line you take, you're usually locked into a single weapon, while barbarians or dragonlord archetypes for instance can use any weapon they want, usually only limited by what improved critical feat they take. Classes like monks and paladins are typically similarly set into one weapon type but that's because they have unique mechanics like being centered or deity restrictions. Kensei-focused fighters shouldn't have similar narrow restrictions, but rather more broad ones.

Fighters shouldnt be limited in any way with any weapons including Exotic. They should also have a feat for Improved Critical that covers all weapons but they have so many feats i will concede that one lol. The Focus line in Kensei is an egg-head created pigeon hole. And any true athletic type would laugh at the thought of not being able to immediately figure out a similar so called exotic weapon over a martial or a simple weapon.

They should get rid of the Focus line in the tree altogether and rethink it.

War Domain Clerics can use any weapon in the game and there for should receive deity benefits for all weapons accordingly.

No one will care though. Dragon Lord is the new Fighter king now. I wont play a DL because it is too gimmicky. The same reason i wont use Feydark greater color spray on casters and in some cases melee (Pathetic Paladins).

 

[Buddha5440]

Playing some Mindcleaver of late has me interacting with the Kensei tree, and something that has always stood out to me is how convoluted the weapon focus line is within the tree itself. Currently there's nine options, with several combining different weapon types, IE piercing, ranged, bludgeoning, etc all in one line. As good as that may sound it's actually rather confining.

Fighters are supposed to be masters of weapons, and yet, depending on the focus line you take, you're usually locked into a single weapon, while barbarians or dragonlord archetypes for instance can use any weapon they want, usually only limited by what improved critical feat they take. Classes like monks and paladins are typically similarly set into one weapon type but that's because they have unique mechanics like being centered or deity restrictions. Kensei-focused fighters shouldn't have similar narrow restrictions, but rather more broad ones.

Since you have to take a weapon focus and weapon specialization feat in order to progress up the focus line in the Kensei tree, why not set the options in the tree to match the focus/specialization line, reducing clutter and simplifying the line to 5 options instead of 9. The focus and specialization feats already align with the improved critical/overwhelming critical feat line, so a natural path towards simplification is already there.

Something else I've bought up during a previous balance pass, and that's removing the charge/recharge part of Opportunity Attack. The attack already has a cooldown, so why limit it with 2 charges? You want Kensei to be more competitive with other trees, why not make it so an attack -- which costs 2 ap to get -- is always available when not on cooldown like other attacks in the tree? SSG already removed the charge/recharge from Adrenaline years ago, and it's one of the more powerful single attacks in the game, so it can't be because you think Opportunity Attack being available more than 2 standing charges would be OP.

None of the above changes I think would bring Kensei up to a level where it would overpower other trees, in fact it still lags heavily behind fighter's own archetype and other melee trees, but just simplify it a little and align it with already existing systems in the game.

While I like what you say, and you say it well, most fighters have a favorite sword, axe, scimitar, falchion, bastard sword, great axe, or two handed sword that they specialize in using. They can use any weapon better than most but still favor one.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Many good ideas, but the specialization has always been a part of fighters identity. If anything they should double down on it and add a swashbuckler-style that grants them top tier crit profile with every martial and exotic weapon.

 

[Blaster]

To further explain a bit since I didn't want the first post to be too long, the simplification would go like this:

Currently Kensei's focus line is - Archery (bows), Axes, Crossbows, Druidic (clubs, daggers, darts, quarterstaves, scimitars, sickles, unarmed - but not handwraps), Heavy Blades (greatswords, falchions, longswords and scimitars), Light Blades (daggers, kukris, rapiers, shortswords, throwing daggers), Maces and Clubs (clubs, light maces, heavy maces, greatclubs, morningstars, quarterstaves), Martial Arts (unarmed - ths includeds handwraps, kamas, quarterstaves, shuriken), and Picks and Hammers.

Simplify to - Slashing, Bludgeoning, Piercing, Ranged, Throwing, qualifying the weapons that already fall under these categories.

As stated earlier, these weapon types cover the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specilization lines, as well as Improved/Overwhelming Critical. There's no need for redundancies and convoluted mismashes, and for a weapon like scimitars, which were changed from heavy to light weapons, the simplified weapon types would cover that transition since its a slashing weapon, and wouldn't require a rework like the current system where scimitars qualify for heavy blades, not light blades.

There could also be something said for having to spend a point in the tree to add exotic weapons to your focus line. Dwarves get dwarven waraxes natively, but for example, unless you're an Aasimar, bastard swords usually require a feat for proficiency, so why tax people an additional action point on top of the feat to bring them into your focus line? If you're proficient then a weapon should automatically qualify for your focus line without a tax.

 

[Contessor]

The problem with Kensai is that it is intended to be a bit of a Samurai type class. Hence the weapon focus line, which are intended to be Ki weapons. And since, until Dragonlord came, that was the only true DPS tree there was.

What SSG needs to do is introduce Oriental Classes in DDO properly. A new Samurai class would be cool, along with new oriental weapons. Katanas would be ******. Then they could remake Kensai into a new true Weaponmaster class tree.

 

[seph1roth5]

I like what pathfinder did and made the weapon focus/spec, improved crit, basically anything that used to be tied to a weapon, instead by tied to pierce/bludgeon/slash. Don't even think there was a separate one for ranged? Either way, the 50 different multiselectors and picking ONE wep is pretty stupid nowadays.

 

[Igognito]

Totally, appropriate changes.
I'm playing a Kensai Dwarf and I'm using battle axes or dwarven axes depending the situation.
I use opportunity attack but not that much, I already have many other options and it having charges makes you stingy in the use.
All suggestions are valid:
* Just follow the groups of weapon focus.
* Remove the exotic, there is no need.
* Make opportunity attack with no charges.
I would also add allow multiple Kensai foci. The AP toll, feat toll is sufficient to keep it balanced.

 

[Ignition]

The problem with Kensai is that it is intended to be a bit of a Samurai type class. Hence the weapon focus line, which are intended to be Ki weapons. And since, until Dragonlord came, that was the only true DPS tree there was.

What SSG needs to do is introduce Oriental Classes in DDO properly. A new Samurai class would be cool, along with new oriental weapons. Katanas would be ******. Then they could remake Kensai into a new true Weaponmaster class tree.

samurai was honestly what i was hoping the monk archetype was gona be, give monk the kensai tree and then a tree that lets them make use of armors while centered at the cost of losing evasion

 

[Mindos]

Does the tree core text still mention building up to 10 charges of something that only goes up to 5 or something like that? I remember there was some odd info in there from the last time, way, way back, when it was last adjusted.

 

[Contessor]

samurai was honestly what i was hoping the monk archetype was gona be, give monk the kensai tree and then a tree that lets them make use of armors while centered at the cost of losing evasion

Samurai is not a monk, despite sharing a ki pool. Samurai should be its own class. Kensai is a prestige of Samurai, as well as blade dancer and singh rager, which would make a very cool class/presige template for Samurai. One could even argue moving ninja spy into samarai and open up another monk prestige, like shaman, which could be more like a divine caster instead of the usual elemental ki casters we already have.

I kind of favor moving ninja spy to samurai from monk and moving kenei to samurai from fighter. Then add a proper weapon master to the fighter tree, add shaman to the monk tree and finish samurai out with singh master. Later down the road, blade dancer can be added as an archetype.

Then add all of the oriental weapon variations and spells to the game. And make oriental spell lists different from the typical arcane/divine lists so they are unique to them. This also opens the door for more feats exclusive to oriental classes and races as well.

 

[Ignition]

Samurai is not a monk, despite sharing a ki pool. Samurai should be its own class. Kensai is a prestige of Samurai, as well as blade dancer and singh rager, which would make a very cool class/presige template for Samurai. One could even argue moving ninja spy into samarai and open up another monk prestige, like shaman, which could be more like a divine caster instead of the usual elemental ki casters we already have.

I kind of favor moving ninja spy to samurai from monk and moving kenei to samurai from fighter. Then add a proper weapon master to the fighter tree, add shaman to the monk tree and finish samurai out with singh master. Later down the road, blade dancer can be added as an archetype.

Then add all of the oriental weapon variations and spells to the game. And make oriental spell lists different from the typical arcane/divine lists so they are unique to them. This also opens the door for more feats exclusive to oriental classes and races as well.

with that logic dragon disciple shoulda been a sorcerer archetype instead of a monk one too

 

[Contessor]

with that logic dragon disciple shoulda been a sorcerer archetype instead of a monk one too

No. Dragon Discipline in true lore is neither Sorc or Monk. I would say DDM is more like Wu Jen than anything. Dragon Dsicple in 3.5e only requires non-dragon race and the ability to cast arcane spells. With Int being its primary skill, that would actually lend more towards wizard than sorc anyways.

 

[Coffey]

Does the tree core text still mention building up to 10 charges of something that only goes up to 5 or something like that? I remember there was some odd info in there from the last time, way, way back, when it was last adjusted.

I tested it out quickly on a PDK with Elminsters training dummy and battle meditation goes up according to the amount of cores you have. I saw 4 stacks with the 4th core enhancement so i would imagine it goes still goes up to 6 stacks with the capstone.

Many good ideas, but the specialization has always been a part of fighters identity.

It has always been a way to narrow down the weapon choices by adding weapon group specialization enhancement incentives to do so. So if i want to switch to an equal bludgeoning weapon (Warhammer) it wont be as powerful as a longsword with Kensei Focus Heavy Blades enabled. Just keep the extra Hit and Damage the way it is and add battle meditation stacks to whatever weapon you may be using. Let Fighter be great and versatile with all weapons the way they are supposed to be. A DL can use any weapon they want equally and so should a Fighter.

 

[Tumideon]

Never understood the weapon specs, just make it like the Focus/Specialization line focused as suggested would go a long way to making it more versatile, ostensibly if would eliminate a few lines of code too lol. Could probably do to buff up the bonuses too, make it feel different. Extra +1 Hit/+2 Dam per enhancement.

Wouldn't mind some passive buffs for it either. Lesser Displacement, Evasion, something?

 

[nicholas]

NO

 

[nicholas]

Never understood the weapon specs, just make it like the Focus/Specialization line focused as suggested would go a long way to making it more versatile, ostensibly if would eliminate a few lines of code too lol. Could probably do to buff up the bonuses too, make it feel different. Extra +1 Hit/+2 Dam per enhancement.

Wouldn't mind some passive buffs for it either. Lesser Displacement, Evasion, something?

There is, Its called MELEE POWER

 

[Ignition]

No. Dragon Discipline in true lore is neither Sorc or Monk. I would say DDM is more like Wu Jen than anything. Dragon Dsicple in 3.5e only requires non-dragon race and the ability to cast arcane spells. With Int being its primary skill, that would actually lend more towards wizard than sorc anyways.

it required spontaneous casting of arcane spells so only classes that can do that are sorc, bard and from what other spontaneous arcane classes I could look up dread necromancer, beguiler and warmage of that list 4 use charisma for casting and 1 uses int so I have no idea what you are talking about with int being the preferred stat for dragon disciples

 

[Kraav]

Increase the damage and to-hit bonuses within the tree.
Remove the charges on Opportunity Attack, keep the cool down.
Remove or change (increase to 50%) the under 30% requirement, and increase the damage and crit multiplier on "A Good Death"
Liquid Courage should be changed to "Gain a burst of 20% DR for 6 seconds when you consume a potion, 30 Second CD"