So is the +w change a melee nerf?

Smelt

Well-known member
As the title says. If this change to the +w system to a +% system a nerf to melee dps? At first glance it seem to be a big nerf to me. Only looking at the update notes and not playing or testing.

Do we know how this is applied? Is the % increase to your total damage. so (weapon dam die + enhancement + stat mod + special mod) +10%, or is it only an increase to your weapon die?

If it is the former it appears to be a significant nerf until you start getting large numbers for stat mods and special mods, but if it's the later it's a massive nerf to damage for melee. Either way it seems a little strange when most agree melee dps is lower than everyone else's.
 

CBDunk

Well-known member
The +W to % change only applies to active attacks... individual attack types that have to be manually triggered and do more damage than usual.

The % applies to all elements of your base damage; dice, enhancement, stat mod, deadly bonus, et cetera.

Overall this works out to a small nerf at low levels, equals out in the mid game, and is a huge buff for endgame.
 

Bluenoser

Member
The % applies to all elements of your base damage; dice, enhancement, stat mod, deadly bonus, et cetera.

Overall this works out to a small nerf at low levels, equals out in the mid game, and is a huge buff for endgame.
Can we get a confirmation for that? That "no matter...what bonus damage you have" in the release notes includes sneak damage, imbues, stat mods, deadly, etc? If the % damage bonus doesn't include all of these, it's a massive nerf.

And even if it does, it won't be small nerf at low levels. +2W in sniper shot on a 1W weapon at lvls 6-10 was a 200% increase to base weapon damage, before they are further magnified by crit damage; now it's only 20%. A +1W attack for a 1W weapon (all them from lvls 1-10 now) was a 100% increase to base damage, and it's now only 10%. You don't have a lot of other sources of bonus damage at low level, so nailing the base W damage seems like it will be very noticeable.
 

vellrad

Member
Can we get a confirmation for that? That "no matter...what bonus damage you have" in the release notes includes sneak damage, imbues, stat mods, deadly, etc? If the % damage bonus doesn't include all of these, it's a massive nerf.

And even if it does, it won't be small nerf at low levels. +2W in sniper shot on a 1W weapon at lvls 6-10 was a 200% increase to base weapon damage, before they are further magnified by crit damage; now it's only 20%. A +1W attack for a 1W weapon (all them from lvls 1-10 now) was a 100% increase to base damage, and it's now only 10%. You don't have a lot of other sources of bonus damage at low level, so nailing the base W damage seems like it will be very noticeable.
+2 W is what, 2d10*melee power, +20% is (Wd10+str/dex+deadly+feats+enhancements+buffs+whatever)*melee power*20%, so if its nerf, only on the lowest levels, when your base weapon got little dice and you don't have much extra damage.
If your weapon is 5(d10+2)+100 damage from buffs and skills, with 100% power, old style +2W attack is just 6-24 increase extra damage, new style +20% is 46-64 extra damge.
W is not as important as it seems, modifers are.
 

droid327

Well-known member
sneak damage, imbues, stat mods, deadly, etc? If the % damage bonus doesn't include all of these, it's a massive nerf.

It includes every component of your base damage. Whatever adds to that first number, for the most part. So deadly and stat-to-dmg yes, imbues no. They said sneak die no, too.

The breakeven point is fairly straightforward - its 10 * your 1W average damage per +10%. E.g., a 5[1d6] weapon would be 1d6 = 3.5 * 10 = 35, so a 30% special attack breaks even at 3 * 35 = 105 total base damage. That's not hard to achieve outside very early levels, when the nerf probably wont make a difference since everyone is already so OP anyway.
 

Smelt

Well-known member
the release notes do not say when the percentage is added only that it doesn't matter what bonuses you have you get the same percentage bonus.

As I said before if this percentage is applied purely to the weapon damage dice it is a nerf to everyones melee dps. If however it is applied after weapon damage and all other bonuses it will still be a nerf at lower levels but a possible boost to higher level chars as your incidental bonuses increase.

A side effect of this, if it does apply to all weapon and bonus damages, is that it will further increase the gap between new and veteran players. The more Pl's you have the more bonuses you have to damage.
 

Bluenoser

Member
It includes every component of your base damage. Whatever adds to that first number, for the most part. So deadly and stat-to-dmg yes, imbues no. They said sneak die no, too.
Can you provide the link to where the devs said all of this, please?

Thanks!
 

somenewnoob

Well-known member
So I made a note of all my guys base damage rating last night, and checked today, 4 of 5 went down and one stayed the same, this is what I saw, this was all unbuffed (except for guild buffs) , standing on the airship fully geared:

162.0 went down to 155.4 (ml 28 weapon)

176.4 went down to 172.9 (ml 29 weapon)

175.5 went down to 173.25 (added bonus, spellsword damge nerfed too!, ml 29 weapon)

114.0 went down to 105.75 (mid epic level character, ML 26 weapon)

59.85 - stayed the same (mid heroic level character, ML 8 weapon)
 

Elves United

Well-known member
From my sampling

---- nerfed ----
level 10 Ravenloft weapons
A couple other level 10s that were getting 1.5 W at level 10 like thornlord or bow of elements
Legendary Greensteel weapons
Most Level 28 - 29 weapons ( includes a lot of raid weapons )

---- buffed ----
Level 31 + 32 weapons
Most Level 16 - 27 weapons
Caught in the Web weapons ( big buff here )
Heroic Alchemical Weapons ( the few I have are lvl 12 )
Thunderforged weapons

Does it change much?
Not really.
weapon users will be more powerful in epic leveling
raid weapons will still be more powerful than non-raid weapons ( even level 31 and 32 ones )
More emphasis on attuned dino-bone or morgrave raid weapons
but nothing so drastic that a character will drop one weapon in favor of another.
 

Blunt Hackett

Well-known member
It's an early heroic and Ravenloft nerf. (Unnecessary and unwanted Amber Temple changes + weaker Barovian weapons). Buffed late game weapons though.
 

Contessor

Well-known member
Can we get a confirmation for that? That "no matter...what bonus damage you have" in the release notes includes sneak damage, imbues, stat mods, deadly, etc? If the % damage bonus doesn't include all of these, it's a massive nerf.

And even if it does, it won't be small nerf at low levels. +2W in sniper shot on a 1W weapon at lvls 6-10 was a 200% increase to base weapon damage, before they are further magnified by crit damage; now it's only 20%. A +1W attack for a 1W weapon (all them from lvls 1-10 now) was a 100% increase to base damage, and it's now only 10%. You don't have a lot of other sources of bonus damage at low level, so nailing the base W damage seems like it will be very noticeable.
+W dmg from attacks never affected anything but base damage. No change really, move on. +W weapon balancing is a nerf across the board...cry there.
 

Bardo

Active member
---- buffed ----
Level 31 + 32 weapons
Most Level 16 - 27 weapons
Caught in the Web weapons ( big buff here )
Heroic Alchemical Weapons ( the few I have are lvl 12 )
Thunderforged weapons
Can you explain why CitW weapons are buffed? I have a Needle, being a level 23 item, (2.50W+7) is worse than a lvl 32 repeater (5W+15), or so I thought.
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
Can you explain why CitW weapons are buffed? I have a Needle, being a level 23 item, (2.50W+7) is worse than a lvl 32 repeater (5W+15), or so I thought.
Pull them from your bank/cache and look at them. Needle went from 2.5w to 3.6w.

Bb2q9j6.jpg
 

dur

aka Cybersquirt
At least they meant to do it this time, even if they flipped the notion of weighting on it's head.. 🙃
 

Tilomere

Well-known member
Screen-Shot-2023-10-06-044736-0.jpg

If it is the former it appears to be a significant nerf until you start getting large numbers for stat mods and special mods, but if it's the later it's a massive nerf to damage for melee. Either way it seems a little strange when most agree melee dps is lower than everyone else's.

On a well-built character 10% damage and 1W are interchangeable at lvl 1, and a buff at levels 3+.
 
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