Speculation on upcoming Balance Pass

[EinarMal]

Let's see how the new feats pan out after update and come back to the conversation. Tho i still think r7 damage reduction needs lower just a bit not full removal. We don't need to go back to caster easy r10 solo days. But they do need to have a bit more dps at endgame.

What new feats? The pierce feats don't do anything to address my points above; they raise the floor a bit for classes like Wizard/Warlock, but those classes are still going to be at best around ~40% the DPS of ranged. You could already get bypas by spending a +1 heart with Choasmancer.

Your stance makes no sense to me based on all the testing I've done, given the long series of nerfs to casters.

You think ranged today can't easily solo R10, or you can certainly build an SDK dragonlord to walk through R10. That is an R10 issue not a caster issue.

 

[Ogre]

This whole thread seems... deranged

This thread is basically a honey pot for the same 10-20 people. Same as all the others threads about ranged, casters, and player anger.

 

[EinarMal]

What you are describing is a scenario that 99% of the player base never encounters. Why should we care how the game functions in R10 raids? It's a niche playstyle. I agree with the proc nerf for exactly this reason you describe. Procs were never meant to be stacked through weapon swaps and other ultra-high end game play. They are being abused, much the way people slotting 6 Gianthold Spell focus augments were abusing the spirit of the system. If those had to go, then so do procs.

You were never guaranteed that all builds would work in R10 raids. A game cannot function being balanced around R10 raids when the vast, vast majority of players run LH raids, only tiptoeing into Reaper for older raids. The only raid 99% of the player base has run on R10 is Legendary Tempest Spine - and casters are great in that raid.

No one is talking about R10 raids. In R1 raids, casters are ~40% the DPS of ranged. Please re-read what I wrote, it said nothing about R10 raids.

In R10 QUESTS, casters are not competitive. In R4 QUESTS, casters are also not competitive, but things die fast enough that it doesn't matter.

The gap right now is absurdly wide.

 

[Vish]

this is all really talk to keep casters rare

which they should be

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

Firstly...

IF anyone is trying to propose any balance on the basis of push raiding then that's misguided.

It's a very specialised space and often requires very specific builds and planning.

Those who engage in it are skilled, no doubt, but a vanishingly small proportion of the player base.



Secondly...

In terms of overall balance, whilst that can be improved, I think we need to accept it can't ever really be fully balanced, and moreover that that's a good thing!

Of the three generic build styles: Ranged, Caster, and Melee, there is always going to be one that is generally better and one that is generally the poor relation.

For example if we somehow buffed casters to be more or less as powerful as ranged, then melee becomes the poor relation. It's already behind ranged after all.

All we can really hope for is that each may get it's place in the sun for a while. Casters had that for a while, but it's now ranged and has been for some time. It's probably time to have melee top of the tree for a bit and maybe caster goes above ranged too.

I'm not sure how else to approach this, as unless your take a longer term and dynamic view of balance, you're left with a once and done static approach that simply won't work, as it inevitably leaves one at the bottom of the pile and those who prefer that style will be unhappy.

At least, if the Devs adopted a more active approach to for want of a better term balance rotation, then folks concerns and disappointments could be tempered by knowing "this too shall pass".

What's clear IMO is that the meta has remained too static for too long.

The challenge and opportunity arising form this will be interesting, however I'm sure that as with any change there will be winners and losers. Hopefully folks are wise and mature enough to accept that inevitability - I have my doubts!

So I'm looking forward to this apparently major balance pass. It is time for change. And I say that as a pretty much exclusively ranged player.

Don't cry folks - adapt!

Or at least do both.

 

[Dandonk]

If we get improved game balance out of this "pass", it'll be great. And yes, some of my characters will need to be rebuilt and new gear grinded out.

And yes, I will live and adapt, like the many times before. It's not the end of the world as we know it*

But experience tells me that we will not, in fact, be getting a better balanced game, just an even more broken and unbalanced one... but possibly with new builds at the top.

Take the stat squish. I understand why they did it, but the result was that r10s became even more easy than they already were, that new gear became boring due to negligible difference between the power levels over a fairly large level range, and past lives which already contribute too much power became by proxy even more powerful (since gear stats were nerfed, but past lives remained the same).

It was a logical and good plan, and it still became a mess with bad effects we still deal with to this day.

And I really, really wish I Wanted To Believe this time it will be different. But even my Wanting To Believe campaign experience can only take my credulity so far.



*Unlike with my broken Monster Manual

 

[EinarMal]

Firstly...

IF anyone is trying to propose any balance on the basis of push raiding then that's misguided.

It's a very specialised space and often requires very specific builds and planning.

Those who engage in it are skilled, no doubt, but a vanishingly small proportion of the player base.



Secondly...

In terms of overall balance, whilst that can be improved, I think we need to accept it can't ever really be fully balanced, and moreover that that's a good thing!

Of the three generic build styles: Ranged, Caster, and Melee, there is always going to be one that is generally better and one that is generally the poor relation.

For example if we somehow buffed casters to be more or less as powerful as ranged, then melee becomes the poor relation. It's already behind ranged after all.

All we can really hope for is that each may get it's place in the sun for a while. Casters had that for a while, but it's now ranged and has been for some time. It's probably time to have melee top of the tree for a bit and maybe caster goes above ranged too.

I'm not sure how else to approach this, as unless your take a longer term and dynamic view of balance, you're left with a once and done static approach that simply won't work, as it inevitably leaves one at the bottom of the pile and those who prefer that style will be unhappy.

At least, if the Devs adopted a more active approach to for want of a better term balance rotation, then folks concerns and disappointments could be tempered by knowing "this too shall pass".

What's clear IMO is that the meta has remained too static for too long.

The challenge and opportunity arising form this will be interesting, however I'm sure that as with any change there will be winners and losers. Hopefully folks are wise and mature enough to accept that inevitability - I have my doubts!

So I'm looking forward to this apparently major balance pass. It is time for change. And I say that as a pretty much exclusively ranged player.

Don't cry folks - adapt!

Or at least do both.

One would think the Devs would have all sorts of tools to measure DPS in-game? While one style is always going to be better than another one, could they at least get them within some +-25% range?

The disparity they allow just kills any sort of build diversity that used to make the game great.

1. Generate a maxed-out character for testing
2. Take some builds from caster posts, some ranged/melee builds from other posts
3. Generate the gear and gear them out
4. Do tests on purple-named mobs on Elite or R1

If they wanted to, they could get things a lot closer than they are.

I am not talking about non-DPS builds, but for builds that are designed for DPS, they should be within some sort of reasonable variance.

To me, you have to go back to the fundamental systems.

1. Melee, Ranged, Spell Power
2. Critical damage
3. Critical Multipliers
4. Base Damage
5. Helpless damage
6. Single Target vs. AOE
7. Rate of attack

Once you have the styles balanced, then you can look at individuals within each e.g., bow vs. repeater, swf vs twf vs thf, etc...

It's boring to be forced into a handful of builds for years.

 

[Yamani]

It's boring to be forced into a handful of builds for years.

The only one forcing you into those handful of builds is yourself. The games straight up too easy atm you just choose to play whatever is the supposed current highest dps cause of delusion of grandeur.

 

[EinarMal]

The only on forcing you into those handful of builds is yourself. The games straight up too easy atm you just choose to play whatever is the supposed current highest dps cause of delusion of grandeur.

How hard or easy the game is is irrelevant when you are wasting a DPS slot on sub-optimal builds, and all the raids take twice as long.

Balancing the game across classes has nothing to do with making the game harder or easier.

You also don't know me, so please refrain from ascribing some sort of pseudo-psychological diagnoses and personal attacks.

 

[DBZ]

I predict crossbows will end up getting better in this "balance" pass.

NOS TRA DAMUS

 

[Contessor]

The only one forcing you into those handful of builds is yourself. The games straight up too easy atm you just choose to play whatever is the supposed current highest dps cause of delusion of grandeur.

What you say is true solo, but grouping mechanics absolutely take into account metrics like individual survivability and DPS, especially in all difficulties of raiding. Groups need to considering taking a tank and 11 casters or an optimal party when doing modern DPS checking raids. Not to say an LH raid is not completable with either option, but it turns a normally short raid into a slogfest.

This is not a result of player participation, this is a direct result of dev game design. R10 questing is not even part of the problem, but raiding in general just needs to be properly designed for all playstyles. In my opinion, balance needs to start in the raiding community at end game, first and foremost. This is truly where the issues of anti-grouping mechanic concerns are.

 

[Mokune]

From what I can tell given my limited intellect, sub-par observations, malaise and general "meh-ness" the ONLY way to balance casters is to give static/persistent XP bonuses based on party make-up. For instance...

Ranged +0% per party member
Melee +2% per party member
Caster +5% per party member

Parse the party makeup based on Feats taken instead of Class because in today's DDO any class can be ranged or melee even if on a traditional caster class.

 

[Contessor]

From what I can tell given my limited intellect, sub-par observations, malaise and general "meh-ness" the ONLY way to balance casters is to give static/persistent XP bonuses based on party make-up. For instance...

Ranged +0% per party member
Melee +2% per party member
Caster +5% per party member

Parse the party makeup based on Feats taken instead of Class because in today's DDO any class can be ranged or melee even if on a traditional caster class.

So do you care about XP in raids? I think if there are incentives given, it should be on loot drop %. But then it just forces a group to fill based on composition still.

If you don’t raid, you will never care if you are playing caster, range or melee, unless you plan to solo r10s. Most r10 questing is take the first 5 to hit the LFM. Raids are the issue. And honestly, if we were only talking about push raids, that would not even be a concern, but sadly even PUG LH raiding is generally affected by casters lackluster DPS performance.

 

[Oliphant]

They are being abused, much the way people slotting 6 Gianthold Spell focus augments were abusing the spirit of the system. If those had to go, then so do procs.

Were GH augs stacking or something?

 

[DBZ]

Yes why most gained what they lost great pass but now that proc rings are meh chrono has 9 dcs and a profane set bonus

So 9 1 curse dc, 1 reaper dc, 11 for 30 bout as good as it gets i think

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

One would think the Devs would have all sorts of tools to measure DPS in-game? While one style is always going to be better than another one, could they at least get them within some +-25% range?

The disparity they allow just kills any sort of build diversity that used to make the game great.

1. Generate a maxed-out character for testing
2. Take some builds from caster posts, some ranged/melee builds from other posts
3. Generate the gear and gear them out
4. Do tests on purple-named mobs on Elite or R1

If they wanted to, they could get things a lot closer than they are.

I am not talking about non-DPS builds, but for builds that are designed for DPS, they should be within some sort of reasonable variance.

To me, you have to go back to the fundamental systems.

1. Melee, Ranged, Spell Power
2. Critical damage
3. Critical Multipliers
4. Base Damage
5. Helpless damage
6. Single Target vs. AOE
7. Rate of attack

Once you have the styles balanced, then you can look at individuals within each e.g., bow vs. repeater, swf vs twf vs thf, etc...

It's boring to be forced into a handful of builds for years.

Not very scientific but if their class distribution shows along the lines of DDO Audit, then that does look reasonably balanced.

Not suggesting that's the best way to do it, just that it might be the way they do it.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

So do you care about XP in raids? I think if there are incentives given, it should be on loot drop %. But then it just forces a group to fill based on composition still.

If you don’t raid, you will never care if you are playing caster, range or melee, unless you plan to solo r10s. Most r10 questing is take the first 5 to hit the LFM. Raids are the issue. And honestly, if we were only talking about push raids, that would not even be a concern, but sadly even PUG LH raiding is generally affected by casters lackluster DPS performance.

LH is a skoosh. Honestly the only time I've ever seen anyone excluded from a raid at any difficulty was a "no melee" in a push (mid R) raid LFM, That was on Moonsea.

Also, I was asked a couple of months ago by a raid leader if I was a melee, when I replied, no I was a thrower, the response was, ah well that's ok then.

Not saying it never happens, just not with the pugs I've joined. And IME it's certainly not only casters who are potentially excluded. That's not to minimise the issues they have these days, but just to add some further perspective. The Devs need to address both. I expect some will still be disappointed though.

 

[Yamani]

If you don’t raid, you will never care if you are playing caster, range or melee, unless you plan to solo r10s. Most r10 questing is take the first 5 to hit the LFM. Raids are the issue.

It's not raids, its complete lack of need for diversity in questing. If you can "just take the first 5" that shows that reaper 10 questing is the issue and is not the "challenge mode" that it is supposed to be. A lot of players have been disillusioned to where their actual ability of play is because of this. Raids don't fail because you bring 1-2 dps casters. They fail because players think they are better than what they actually are.
Heck been reminding my own group for reaper raiding that they don't actually have what it takes to be in reaper raids and they've just been carried by a select few members in the group.

 

[Custodian]

One would think the Devs would have all sorts of tools to measure DPS in-game? While one style is always going to be better than another one, could they at least get them within some +-25% range?

The disparity they allow just kills any sort of build diversity that used to make the game great.

1. Generate a maxed-out character for testing
2. Take some builds from caster posts, some ranged/melee builds from other posts
3. Generate the gear and gear them out
4. Do tests on purple-named mobs on Elite or R1

If they wanted to, they could get things a lot closer than they are.

I am not talking about non-DPS builds, but for builds that are designed for DPS, they should be within some sort of reasonable variance.

To me, you have to go back to the fundamental systems.

1. Melee, Ranged, Spell Power
2. Critical damage
3. Critical Multipliers
4. Base Damage
5. Helpless damage
6. Single Target vs. AOE
7. Rate of attack

Once you have the styles balanced, then you can look at individuals within each e.g., bow vs. repeater, swf vs twf vs thf, etc...

It's boring to be forced into a handful of builds for years.

I think your main problem here is suggestion that devs have ever played the game.

 

[Kyrr]

I think your main problem here is suggestion that devs have ever played the game.

They definitely do. **Most of them admit they do play the game. Not sure if it's for long or if it's only during leveling, but Cordovan plays it (on stream) and off stream. I know Steelstar does, and so does Tolero.