Spell DCs/saves...it's time, devs.

[Lazuli]

I'd agree that skill-based DCs just open the door for silliness. I don't think they thought things through.

Exactly. It's impossible to defend this. The game's core system isn't designed for skill-based DCS on spell stuff. Changing the game's foundation for an unnecessary new mechanic makes no sense.

Tactics across the board aren't broken though, it's really only dragon lord and to a lesser extent the basic fighter class. Try hitting super high DCs on a paladin or ranger and you'll find it's probably not even worth building for. You'll generally hit 80 or 90 without a clear path to the 120+ that seems needed, then kinda just go another route. Barbs maybe, I'm not as familiar. It's really that they give fighters 4 cheap feats with +8/6/4/2 to all tactics DCs, and then the dragon lord tree gives another maybe +10, plus the trance...yea it gets silly quickly.

I agree, and that's why I pointed out that in general (there are outliers with fighters) tactics don't generate crazy final numbers. But both (spell and tactic DCs) are now used for the same thing (saving throws), but the acquisition system is very different: much easier with tactics than with spell DCs. Enhancements benefit tactics more than spells, feats are better, and, the biggest culprit, the DC equipment, is much easier to obtain for tactics than for spell DCs.

I'm not proposing a nerf to tactics. On the contrary, I want spell DCs to be more like tactics. Items for spell DCs should have fewer channels and provide a larger overall bonus for a similar result. Caster filigrees should simultaneously boost spell DCs and spell damage (like there are sets for martials). Caster feats and enhancements should be a bit more rewarding, or at least not be dedicated solely to a single school.

Nerfing tactics would be a mistake. Most martial builds don't have excessive DC. Leaving this alone and slightly reducing legendary saves would actually help those at the lower end of the spectrum who are struggling.

I do think fighters have excessive DC in feats. I believe there should be only one tactical feat with a decent bonus, and that the fighter/DL's strength should lie in being able to invest many feats in tactical abilities (not in DC - potential DC should be similar and effective for all builds). Versatility should be the fighter's strength.

So, in short, aside from fighters, tactics are better than spell dc not because they reach higher values, but because acquiring them requires much less investment (especially in equipment), leaving more room for martials to grab other things. The problem here is in the spell dc acquisition system, not in tactics, and especially in equipment. Although needing three feats for +3 to spell dc to a SINGLE school is also pretty bad. And then needing another legendary feat to add the bonuses to just one more magic school. Seriously, devs.

As for casters, I'd agree that there are big changes needed here, gearing is an absolute nightmare and the fact that their solution is adding another bonus type is borderline insulting...or at least out of touch. Also 100% agree that heroic and epic are just fine, it's mostly legendary, particularly the most recent content that has issues....big ones.

Yeah. I can't help but insist to the devs how bad the current caster gear is, and how much damage it does to add more channels instead of consolidating and reducing them to reduce the madness that is the current caster gear. There's an overabundance of stats right now in caster gear, devs. Compress, consolidate stats, don't divide them even more.

I suppose where we can agree overall is that the current system clearly isn't balanced and needs changing. If they were willing to walk back many of the changes to DCs that are clearly "off" like MD lamordia mob saves, intim-instakilling, dragonlord roar, trickster, etc...sure. But seeing as they just released the latter and in some ways it's the most egregious...

Absolutely. What I disagree with is that the solution is to go for skill-based spellcasting. I would abolish that in the current content and improve the efficiency of everyone who needs spellcasting by lowering legendary npc saves, making it easier to acquire DCs on equipment, and, if necessary, reviewing feats and enhancements that only give a +1 DC to one (or a few in case of some enhancements) school. I feel that in the case of feats, the problem isn't so much the numerical bonus they give, but rather that they only benefit one school of magic. So, leveling up the 4 or 5 schools that all casters need (even though many of them only benefit 1 or 2 spells) becomes an unsustainable investment. Therefore, I don't so much want to increase the numerical bonus as I want to make it easier to invest in several schools of magic without losing all your feats in the process.

I just don't really see them doing that. That's the thing. After Dragon Lord was released, pretty much everyone I talked to was sure the roar would be nerfed in a month or two. We were all just waiting for it, as it was the silliest thing ever. They never did. I think it would be more balanced if they did, and even nicer if they had the foresight to not make such clearly silly decisions in the first place, I just not sure if they'll admit it was all unbalanced and make the needed "rollbacks" as it were. So a different solution might be needed.

I don't see them making changes like these either. But they should. Skill-based DCs unbalance the game. The system isn't designed for it.

If we switch everything to skill-based DCs, they'd have to change absolutely all the STs. Or, if the goal is flawless DCs, then they should just remove the roll dice and the STs and implement a 5% guaranteed failure rate and a 95% flawless success. It just doesn't make sense. The game isn't ready for this.

And it's completely unbalanced to have classes with 50+ DC compared to others. It's impossible to balance this.

And the same goes for a system similar to the AC. It's not a system that works well, and I don't want it for the Spell DC. It would only make things worse.

 

[Wizard]

100% agree, something has to be done with legendary mob spell save DCs. They are super inflated and there are no where near enough accessible ways to raise your spell DC.

As a caster, you can reach a point where R1 is already too easy for you, because you got decent defenses and damage (against no evasion mobs or using spells that can't be evaded), yet you can't hit a single spell DC. That makes no sense at all. Even on elite, mob saves are barely lower.

And it started way earlier than MD (maybe even as soon as legendary was introduced), mob saves increased expentionally.

 

[Necrodancer]

There's also a chance that SSG will do what SSG does best. When they don't know how/want to retcon their mistakes, they come up with convoluted new mechanics or stats.

They did it when they introduced prr and mrr
They did it when they introduced melee/ranged power

And so on, you get the gist. I would not be surprised in the least if they come up with "Magical Armor Class", now your spells have their own base attack bonus and you roll against your enemy MAC. They'd even have an excuse for new past lives. Whatever the case, I keep my expectations low, like abysmally low.

 

[Wizard]

And the same goes for a system similar to the AC. It's not a system that works well, and I don't want it for the Spell DC. It would only make things worse.

Why do you think the change of to hit system (no longer a DC 20, not sure what it now, at least D100 or higher) doesn't work well?

Fully geared out martial char only misses on a 1, for a worse equipped martial absolute worst grazing hits I've seen are on 7 or lower > 30% lower

Fully geared out caster only gets saved on a 1, less geared caster will fail on anything but a 20 > ~45% (!) worse on no evasion mobs, 95 % (!) worse on evasion mobs

 

[mikarddo]

I think a fair skill to base DCs on would be concentration, since every caster uses it. Basing it on spellcraft would give INT-based classes like wizards and alchemists an advantage. Thematically it just fits: greater focus equals more powerful spells.

No real caster use concentration. Quicken makes concentration a dump skill.

 

[Love]

No real caster use concentration. Quicken makes concentration a dump skill.

Of course... but every caster has concentration as one of their class skills, which means no class would get an unfair advantage. Unlike spellcraft, which is an INT-based skill. I think this is why concentration would be a fair skill to scale of IF(!) they decide to make any caster spells scale with a skill.

 

[Konsumer]

I'm one of "the uber-completionist-reaper-geared-best-curse build" and let me tell you... after all of that I'm still lacking in my spell Dcs. It's crazy to expect people to invest years of work and dozens of PLs just to barely get acceptable spell DCs.

 

[Wizard]

I'm one of "the uber-completionist-reaper-geared-best-curse build" and let me tell you... after all of that I'm still lacking in my spell Dcs. It's crazy to expect people to invest years of work and dozens of PLs just to barely get acceptable spell DCs.

Wow, if even someone with the best of the best gear and PL / RP struggles (the 0,0...% top players) that's a clear sign that Mob saves are way too high and casters don't have enough options to increase their DC.

Devs, do something, please.

 

[Frantik]

I can see why some people are upset with Tricksters Disable Device DC; I personally don't mind it because I think that it is just an excuse not to talk about the elephant in the room which, as Lazuli has once again clearly explained, is that "normal" caster DC levels are a joke. A joke that gets worse and worse as you approach cap. Let's be honest, we are not going to even think about nerfing DL's DCs, are we? And truth be told, adjusting Tricksters' Stolen Spell DCs (and abilities) to [say] AT level + INT modifier + DD/4 [this is just an example] which would reduce the overall DCs while leaving them still high-ish. What needs to be done is to rehaul "normal" caster DCs; a simple approach would be to add a factor to DC calculation such as DC = max caster level + highest casting ability modifier + new add (Heal + Perform + Spellcraft)/x [just an example off the top of my head, x to be defined] + spell school DC. Why average from Heal, Perform and Spellcraft? To help adjust DCs for all caster types; you could probably envisage increasing Sorc skill points per level (example) to help with this. Lazuli is right about the need to rehaul caster gear.

So my conclusion would be NOT to change Trickster right now, but change the way all caster DCs are calculated by increasing them via a skills factor and applying the same re-balanced method to Tricksters too.

 

[Aelonwy]

The game has gone to extremes for caster gear/build, its far too specialized on classes that should have more flexible utility. By that I mean, to successfully cast a cold spell well a caster needs Glaciation/Insightful Glaciation/Quality Potency/Alchemical/Artifact/Profane/6 Feats/3 epic lives and Evocation DC: Spell Focus Mastery/Insightful/artifact/profane/sacred/Feats/Enhancements/lives + Applicable Casting Stat tome/equip/insightful/quality/artifact/profane/exceptional/enhancements/feats?/racial and for best effect also be able to CC the enemy so all the same DC for Enchantment and Spell Penetration/Insightful Spell Pen/Artifact/ 3x spell Pen feats or 9x past lives or both. And debuffs, what works anyway. You're also going to want whatever effects you can fit in for survivability because everything is out to kill you... seriously enemies have higher aggro on casters from the very beginning.

Enemy immune or resistant to cold? Better have something that breaks that or its going to feel like you're casting spitballs instead of snowballs. But should the enemy be immune to CC? Like all red and purple named, and some regular mobs by virtue of their race? Half your effort is doing nothing. Your DC not high enough? wasted sp pts. Your spell pen not high enough? wasted effort. You're NOT facing?! Congratulations you're playing DDO as a caster.

Come to that same fight as a melee specialized in Two Handed Fighting with a Greatsword but the enemy is immune or resistant to slashing? Pull out a maul, you won't crit as much but all your 2HF feats and enhancements will still apply. Need good or silver or adamantine to break DR? There's many feats and a few enhancements that readily do this... or you could just swap weapons. Not so easy to swap spell power specialization or get immune break for casters. You are NOT facing? No worries, swinging that weapon doesn't cost anything just keep swinging. Ranged? Even easier, just carry a half page of quivers filled with all the DR breaking arrows you might need and get a couple niche bows/quivers that add blunt damage.

What do casters have over others except buffs? And most caster buffs are available either temporarily in potion form or permanently on gear.

 

[Frantik]

Something must be done for Warlocks too! Inspired by ATr? Give Warlocks free level 8 ability of force imbue that works on their blasts, stances and spells; +1d6 force damage per imbue, +1 imbue per 3 Warlock levels. Adjust ES T4 accordingly (maybe +1 imbue dice) and leave ES Core 5 as is. DCs? No save!

 

[StrengthDomain]

... dragonlord first life builds can hit 140+ DCs fairly easily...

I’ll stop here, because this statement is ridiculous. Even if possible, it’s by no way an easy feat to achieve such DCs on a first life build, even utilizing Dragonlord. You need to specialize, wear optimized gear and most likely have +8 Ability Tome on your main stat at least. A true first lifer will have neither the gear nor the tomes. Most builds will struggle to achieve 120+ standing DC.

I’m saying this to underline that the problem is not exclusive to casters but exists for most DC based components in the game. Albeit casters, obviously, suffer the most. No matter what system we will use, as long as the game difficulty is balanced around completionist toons that utilize every possible bonus in the game, this issue will persist.

The easiest solution is to tune down enemy saving throws (thus changing the balance) or ramping up bonuses on items (so basically a return to the pre stat-squish state) for easier compensation.

But then the hamsters will whine about the game being made too easy…

 

[Wizard]

I’ll stop here, because this statement is ridiculous. Even if possible, it’s by no way an easy feat to achieve such DCs on a first life build, even utilizing Dragonlord. You need to specialize, wear optimized gear and most likely have +8 Ability Tome on your main stat at least. A true first lifer will have neither the gear nor the tomes. Most builds will struggle to achieve 120+ standing DC.

I’m saying this to underline that the problem is not exclusive to casters but exists for most DC based components in the game. Albeit casters, obviously, suffer the most. No matter what system we will use, as long as the game difficulty is balanced around completionist toons that utilize every possible bonus in the game, this issue will persist.

The easiest solution is to tune down enemy saving throws (thus changing the balance) or ramping up bonuses on items (so basically a return to the pre stat-squish state) for easier compensation.

Yeah, 140 DC for first life Dragon Lord sounds WAY too high. What matters though is that first life dragonlords (and AT) CAN hit DCs, but casters CAN'T. I don't advocate for DL and AT nerfs but instead to change/improve caster DCs.

Tuning down enemy saving throws still has the problem that the D20 system means each point of the DC difference means 5% effectivity difference. That's much too high when player DCs can vary between like 50 and 140.

 

[LurkingVeteran]

I’ll stop here, because this statement is ridiculous. Even if possible, it’s by no way an easy feat to achieve such DCs on a first life build, even utilizing Dragonlord. You need to specialize, wear optimized gear and most likely have +8 Ability Tome on your main stat at least. A true first lifer will have neither the gear nor the tomes. Most builds will struggle to achieve 120+ standing DC.

I’m saying this to underline that the problem is not exclusive to casters but exists for most DC based components in the game. Albeit casters, obviously, suffer the most. No matter what system we will use, as long as the game difficulty is balanced around completionist toons that utilize every possible bonus in the game, this issue will persist.

The easiest solution is to tune down enemy saving throws (thus changing the balance) or ramping up bonuses on items (so basically a return to the pre stat-squish state) for easier compensation.

But then the hamsters will whine about the game being made too easy…

This might be an extreme example (I think it's possible but requires specific builds), but the fact is that easily accesible DCs on items are higher for tactics, and you also get a further bonus from a trance almost for free on many builds. There are individual enhancements that give +3 tactics, but the best you normally get for spell DC is +1.

Similarly, if the +1 spell DC feat line was for tactics, nobody would take them. They are almost obligatory on first life casters just because they are struggling so much to hit DCs while being completely reliant on them. You have to really go all-in with feats, APs, items and racial PLs etc. This is not just about general power creep, it's about all abilities tied to tactics just being much lower effort to specialize in than those tied to a spell school.

 

[The Narc2]

I’ll stop here, because this statement is ridiculous. Even if possible, it’s by no way an easy feat to achieve such DCs on a first life build, even utilizing Dragonlord. You need to specialize, wear optimized gear and most likely have +8 Ability Tome on your main stat at least. A true first lifer will have neither the gear nor the tomes. Most builds will struggle to achieve 120+ standing DC.

I’m saying this to underline that the problem is not exclusive to casters but exists for most DC based components in the game. Albeit casters, obviously, suffer the most. No matter what system we will use, as long as the game difficulty is balanced around completionist toons that utilize every possible bonus in the game, this issue will persist.

The easiest solution is to tune down enemy saving throws (thus changing the balance) or ramping up bonuses on items (so basically a return to the pre stat-squish state) for easier compensation.

But then the hamsters will whine about the game being made too easy…

This is accurate.


What they should have done to feed the hamsters was make reaper difficulty increase in an exponential curve from R4 up in quests, instead of little bumps for each skull there should have been increasingly bigger chunks of difficulty for each skull. For raids these big incremental jumps should start right at R1.


As an example for quest R4 should be the equivalent of what is now R6 minus the extra reaper types, R5 should be equivalent to R9 with the extra reaper types, R6 should be equavalent to what would be R13, and obviously by the time you got to R10 you would be at a level equalivalent R39 in the current system.

By doing this there would always be an argument to be had that the game is not easy just run it on a more difficult setting and of course there would be some glory seekers that would!!


Balancing elite and R1 questing content for the hamsters only succeeded in driving many of the regular players from the game, regular long time players were not going to drop down settings to hard or normal.

unfortunately i think the ship has sailed on that I know far too many players that have left the game and will not be coming back, the game became work versus fun for many. I think a great video game finds a way to keep the game fun for the general populace and strategically challenging for thise that wish to reach god-like status, such as the greatest players in the game, for example Dom.

 

[Fizzix]

I would rather have HP( or MRR) bloat on mobs and scrap DC checks altogether.

statflation has to occur somewhere.

Let the statflation occur in spellpower, crit and crit chance.

Convert the +DC PLs , fillagrees and augments to crit and Crit chance so they scale.

the bonus to raid gear should be reduced spell cooldown percentages.

You get some statflation with each spell power on each release sure. but thats ok, you get slightly more effective with the quest blues, and if you have last packs raid gear you still be slightly more effective than someone in this packs quest gear. but if you chase the new raid gear it will outshine it.

the CDs on IKs are punishment enough, they should just work. So many mobs are immune anyway. This can be the way First lives can join into other groups and be effective.

Holds and roots and what not could be duration based on how much Heroic level you have of the class. 20 levels of wiz, your holds ar 100. 15 levels of wiz your holds last 75% in duration. or maybe PLs in class could play a part. 17 level wiz with 3 wiz PLs get 100 duration.

 

[Svirfneblin]

I do agree that caster DC is needed for current Contant at higher difficulties is a bit ridiculous. Starting around Myth Drannor and continuing through our Lamordia it is difficult to get DCs. But if DC problems popped up all the sudden in this content isn’t the problem the Content DC level is too high and should we just adjust that down instead?

If we keep saying that dragon lords DC use for crowd control and Insta kills are too high and ridiculous should those be adjusted down then? If people say that dragon lords are more useful than casters then well sounds like there’s your problem.

It seems like a few things are out of whack here. I Opine that the disable device skill base DC for tricksters is just a one off trick that’s not going to be used game wide for other spell casters. It only works on a few spells anyway.

OR…. You could change the epic spell focus from just +1 DC to +1 DC every other Epic level up to level 29 for a total of +5. You could add to the free epic knowledge feat +1 DC for a total of +5 level 30 that’ll prep you well for legendary content. You could give warlocks the epic eldritch blast and epic pact dice feats for free to free up two feat slots that they can use to get the DCs in other spell schools. If you took an epic spell focus feet in Epics you could make it so when you hit level 30 you get auto awarded a +5 DC in that school automatically for free. Theres all kind of stuff you can do it just needs the attention and a developer.

 

[EinarMal]

I do agree that caster DC is needed for current Contant at higher difficulties is a bit ridiculous. Starting around Myth Drannor and continuing through our Lamordia it is difficult to get DCs. But if DC problems popped up all the sudden in this content isn’t the problem the Content DC level is too high and should we just adjust that down instead?

If we keep saying that dragon lords DC use for crowd control and Insta kills are too high and ridiculous should those be adjusted down then? If people say that dragon lords are more useful than casters then well sounds like there’s your problem.

It seems like a few things are out of whack here. I Opine that the disable device skill base DC for tricksters is just a one off trick that’s not going to be used game wide for other spell casters. It only works on a few spells anyway.

OR…. You could change the epic spell focus from just +1 DC to +1 DC every other Epic level up to level 29 for a total of +5. You could add to the free epic knowledge feat +1 DC for a total of +5 level 30 that’ll prep you well for legendary content. You could give warlocks the epic eldritch blast and epic pact dice feats for free to free up two feat slots that they can use to get the DCs in other spell schools. If you took an epic spell focus feet in Epics you could make it so when you hit level 30 you get auto awarded a +5 DC in that school automatically for free. Theres all kind of stuff you can do it just needs the attention and a developer.

I think they should just lower the floor, with the consequence that developed characters are going to have no fail DC and can trade off DC boosting Filligree for DPS boosting ones.

They basically need to add in 10-15 DC that everyone can access and not adjust mob saves.

They could do this many ways; they could let the epic destiny cores stack, or they could just add a +2 DC to epic/legendary knowledge.

They could adjust the spell focus feats (not as big a fan of this as classes with extra feats benefit way more). This is needed across all classes IMO, and Wizard/Alchemist should not benefit more than others.

 

[Zariel]

No real caster use concentration. Quicken makes concentration a dump skill.

100%

 

[EinarMal]

100%

I can't see them going the route of making spell DC skill based across the board. Just items alone, there are so many that would be invalidated; they just added a new source of DC.

I would just add in +2 per epic/legendary knowledge, which will help out less developed casters a lot, and for those with all the PL and gear, I would just swap out things like Otto/Eye for Dragonsoul, etc...