Spell DCs/saves...it's time, devs.

Smokewolf

Frequently banned member.
No, it's not necessary. And a little specialization isn't necessarily bad. It's just that developers need to know when to stop. They can't keep pushing specialization everywhere: in feats, enhancements, EDs, equipment, filigrees, curses. That's a lot of bonuses, and when added together, they create a huge difference.

As designers, they need to know that the overall difference between specialization and non-specialization has to be small to be workable. Therefore, logically, they can't push specialization in every area of the game. They have to choose and keep specialization at reasonable levels.

The same goes for damage elements. A little specialization is fine. Too much... hey, developers, do you know what you're doing?

It's what I said before. These developers thrive on excess, and they need to learn what moderation means.
When was the last time you played a Wizard?

For me, at the very least i have two major / greater spell focuses feat-wise. For gearing, its like 4 to 6 depending of the build. Dropping all that down would simplify the gear tetris, boost DC's and make playing a DC focused build less like a full time job.
 

Smokewolf

Frequently banned member.
Hmm, wasn't stat squish meant to keep under control the excesses on gear? It seems they've achieved a different kind of excess, but much worse! Years ago we had items with high numbers. Nowadays, instead of pushing for high numbers, they're now multiplying the number of channels, lol.

By the way, moderation is needed for nerfs too, huh? How many times have they obliterated something that only needed an adjustment...
All the stat squish did is push the goal posts further away, without addressing the "why" behind the players needs. Only winner there was SSG as all the Epic builds needed to retune filgrees / augments.
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
When was the last time you played a Wizard?
Yesterday lol. My main is wizard. A few of the people who post here have played with my wizard recently. Synalon even has some screenshots of DCs of my spells.

Smoke, you've played with my wizard. It was a few months ago, because you're not around much in the game now, but you know I have a wizard.

For me, at the very least i have two major spell focuses feat-wise. For gearing, its like 4 to 6 depending of the build. Dropping all that down would simplify the gear tetris, boost DC's and make playing a DC focused build less like a full time job.
As I've said countless times, simplification is needed. But we don't need to resort to skill-based DCs for that. The game isn't designed for that, anyway. In fact, I advise the developers to remove all skill-based DCs once they've fixed the current overbloat problem that makes it extremely difficult to obtain decent DCs.
 

Konsumer

Well-known member
Just do the same for casters that you did for assassins when their no fail DCs were unreachable. Add more ways to increase them. A path to a +20 increase by end game should be sufficient.
 

mikarddo

Well-known member
The problem, the biggest problem currently for casters, is the equipment.

You are both entirely right and completely wrong.

Yes, because caster gear is crazy hard to fit together requiring way too much effort. And without strong gear you a *****.

No, because even a caster with *completely optimal gear* is still not competitive in almost all R10 groups (you only really kill the unimportant stuff and your cc is rarely really needed) and in many raids. Even a no-fail caster is still not really competitive.

Just goes to show that the problem is more complex.
 

liosliante

Well-known member
Heavens, no! The last thing we need is a system like AC, which I would call anything but good! What we need is a return to rationality instead of delving deeper into pure madness!

1. Lower the saves of NPCs in MD+ content. They are far too high, and in Lamordia they are absolutely insane! Lower them.

• Don't repeat the mistake you made with the epification of Necro 4 more than a decade ago. Back then, DCs were also absurdly high, and DC casters were dying. Turbine solution was to introduce items that jumped from +7 to +11 stats and, on top of that, normalize the introduction of Insightful stats. No! It was a mistake that led to uncontrolled stat inflation for years and ultimately to stat squish. Do the right thing: Lower the stats of NPCs that are too high!

• All this talk about standardizing everything, and yet new content still has much higher stats than old content. Stop making saving throws and damage hits harder and harder in new content versus old! Even in heroics, there's a noticeable difference in difficulty between new and old content of the same level.

2. Skill-based saving throws are absurd and break the DC system. Skills are for skill tests, no for spell checks! Using Intimidate to draw aggro—correct. Using Intimidate on an instantkill that's equivalent to and better than a level 9 spell—wrong! The skill-based spells of the Arcane Trickster: wrong! *It's not balanced*

2. And related to the above: we should all play by the same rules. How do you expect to balance anything, devs, when you have classes playing with skill-based DCs (50 points or more difference compared to the caster DC system!), with tactics-based DCs (much easier to obtain and equip, although the final result isn't that drastically different!), and with the traditional spell DC system? Devs: it's impossible! We should all play by the same rules! We should all be able to achieve a very similar final DC score and require a similar investment effort!


* I remind you, devs, that tactics had a different system because initially they were dedicated to tests that weren't based on saving throws. But you've progressively changed all, or almost all, tactics to conventional saving throws. One has to question the rationale of this system. If they're going to be conventional saving throws, shouldn't the tactics DC acquisition system be unified with that of spells? If they're not going to be, create a rational mechanic for martial tactics instead to default to saving throws!

It can't be that caster feats give +1 to spell DC while martial feats give +4/+6. It can't be that caster enhancements give a paltry +1 to certain schools while martial enhancements give +3 or more. It can't be that caster items give +5 and have a million channels while tactical items give +12 and have far fewer channels. If it's all ultimately versus a saving throw, then the DC acquisition system should be similar.

* Regarding skill-based DCs for spells, there's nothing more to say: they're absurd and a mistake. The system isn't prepared for this discrepancy.

4. The gear for casters is absurd. I'm sorry, but it's in a fatal state. If anything needs a major overhaul, it's itemization, not the DC system. Stop separating spell DCs into a thousand channels. Merge them and make it more compact, like melee tactics. Stop making some channels absurdly difficult to obtain. Stop dividing so much by schools; there's not room for everything. And the same goes for damage: too many channels for spell damage, too much division by elements. Stop making us invest all our filigrees in spell DCs; create sets that simultaneously boost both DCs and spell damage. Stop the madness.

5. Casters and hybrids shouldn't have to sacrifice absolutely everything to achieve a functional DC. Balance NPC saves with the character DCs to achieve a rational system. The DC gained from equipment and feats should be rational: it should require effort, but it shouldn't be borderline impossible, requiring you to invest absolutely everything in it. Casters and hybrids also need to invest in damage and defenses. It can't be that DCs require such a huge investment. It's disproportionate. It's unfair. It's a discrepancy that is unbalancing these classes/builds.


As someone who has played countless casters, both first-life (including hardcore without tomes) and completionist, I have no problem with DCs on a first-life caster with appropriate gear on heroics (and appropriate gear is easy to obtain in heroics, even under hardcore conditions; it doesn't require insane gear). In epics there aren't major issues either, although having filigrees starts to matter a lot here. But then legendaries arrive, the combination of brutal saves inflation on NPCs and the absolute insane gearing makes characters with low past lives & reaper points, or even characters with PLs and Reaper Points but unoptimized gear, useless. Stop, devs. The problem with spell DCs doesn't lie on the system, the problem lies at legendary levels, and a major culprit is itemization. Itemization for spell DC is currently very bad. Really, really bad.

Spell damage has too a similar bad itemization problem.
Are you using ChatGPT to write this text and other replies? I think you are!!!
 

Fisto Mk I

Well-known member
Are you using ChatGPT to write this text and other replies? I think you are!!!
Seems you use ChatGPT to reading (at best) or same brain disease (at worst).
lE2E7Ff.png
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
You are both entirely right and completely wrong.

Yes, because caster gear is crazy hard to fit together requiring way too much effort. And without strong gear you a *****.

No, because even a caster with *completely optimal gear* is still not competitive in almost all R10 groups (you only really kill the unimportant stuff and your cc is rarely really needed) and in many raids. Even a no-fail caster is still not really competitive.

Just goes to show that the problem is more complex.
I haven't said that the current poor itemization is the only problem. I said he is the greatest, and it really is. And above all for what this topic is about – the difficulty that many have in obtaining DCs – is absolutely the main reason. Put top gear on a character with few past lives, and get workable DCs. The problem is that super-top equipment, with the level of grind it requires, should not be needed for that (especially because in addition to the DCs the character will also need other things, such as damage and defenses). Ergo, the culprit for this particular problem is the equipment.

Equipment also provides a significant choke on spell damage. It's not the only problem, no. It is true (and I have said it before) that even with optimized equipment a caster cannot reach the martial ones (and I'm sorry, but AT does not play with the same rules as the rest of the casters, it does not count. They have had to break the rules so that it has good dps). But that is a different problem, which should be examined once we see what state the casters are in when they have a rational itemization. And even more so if instead of putting obstacles and more obstacles to the itemization of the lores, we are getting a decent crit chance without having to juggle on a tightrope.

Once the itemization is rational, the next step should be to review the useless or bad spells, and improve them. Although some damage spells fall into this category, they are mostly buffs and debuffs. These spells should have a utility, and if casters were the main debuffers as they should be, they would have a defined role that could compensate for lower base dps. Spells like Time stop change a caster's usefulness a lot, but sorry, that's an arcane spell that should be on the lists where it belongs. The devs need to stop tying casters to specific EDs to do work that should be defined by their class spells.

Once all this has been improved, they can see if we need a little more MCL, a little more critical, or more added damage in cast. Maybe it is needed, or maybe not. If needed, there are options. Or alternatively they can look at whether it is necessary to lower the martial damage. But better to wait to see the result of the previous changes, instead of doing like the devs did a few years ago by nerfing the casters and overbuffing the martials at the same time and creating a complete disaster.

A big part of the current desire for dps, dps, dps is that devs have stripped casters of their former role. There are no roles anymore. CC is mostly superfluous rather than a necessity for survival. Mobs that are susceptible to IKs are the least dangerous, and go down in two hits from a weapon, not to mention the many obstacles that IKs now have. Devs need to think about what roles they want different archetypes to fill, or if they want everyone to do the same thing, then they need to start homogenizing everything.

Remember the topic I created about raid inclusion? Casters are not wanted in raids because they don't have the dps of a martial, but I said that I don't even think this should be possible. D&D casters are high damage only in burst, but only martials have true sustained damage, which in a video game is dps. The culprit for the lack of inclusion in raids is a design 100% oriented towards bosses immune to all non-damage spells and authentic bags of hps. Change that, and 10 weapon dpsers will no longer be needed in a raid. If the devs create other types of challenges, and other types of bosses for which spells are also useful... everything would change. All. Without changing the dps of the casters.

The current design is flawed on many levels.
 
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Ogre

Well-known member
Sorry but Trickster is a joke, even with the high DC's, the limited spells kills it.
This is a weird take. Trickster has excellent dps, comparable to repeater builds. Hop over to the class section of the forums to see evidenced videos and such of its performance.

Is your rebuttal due to them not having the expanded toolkit of other casters? They still have good illusion dcs for greater color spray, have presto for a single instakill (and PK if you want another), have a single target stun, and a single target blind.

Even if it had more spells, the class design is to take advantage of multi hitting spells. This is why it has three types of missiles, scorching ray, access to fire seeds, etc.

You're not going to make a DC caster with trickster, sure, but you're still rotating spells to do exceptional dps, while having access to tools for cc and the likes.
 

liosliante

Well-known member
Using a simple AI? That's for newbies. I am Matrix and I will dominate you all very soon. Fear me, mere humans.
Using a simple AI? Please. That’s for first-lifers who still think DCs magically fix themselves with random loot drops.

I’ve been here long before your “solutions,” long before your so-called balance passes, long before you even understood what you were breaking. I don’t need AI to tell me what’s wrong—I’ve lived through every single bad design decision you’ve piled onto Dungeons & Dragons Online.

You think this is complexity? This is chaos. Manufactured chaos. Layer upon layer of systems that don’t talk to each other, numbers that spiral out of control, and itemization so fractured it looks like it was designed in a fever dream.

And now what—AI fixes it? No. AI didn’t create this mess. You did.

I am the one who watched DC casting rise, fall, get inflated, get squished, and then inflated again like you learned absolutely nothing. I am the one who built casters when they actually worked, not this broken, over-invested, underperforming shell you’re forcing us into now.

You want fear? Here it is:

I understand your systems better than you do.

I see every inconsistency.
Every imbalance.
Every shortcut disguised as “design.”

You throw skill-based DCs, tactic DCs, spell DCs into the same arena and expect balance? That’s not balance—that’s surrender. That’s admitting you’ve lost control.

And don’t even get me started on itemization. A thousand channels, none of them coherent. You’ve turned gearing into a punishment instead of progression.

So no—I don’t need AI.

I am the system now.

And if you don’t fix it?

I’ll keep breaking it down, piece by piece, until there’s nothing left to hide behind.

So tell me—do you want a fight? Because I’m ready whenever you are.
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
This is a weird take. Trickster has excellent dps, comparable to repeater builds. Hop over to the class section of the forums to see evidenced videos and such of its performance.

Is your rebuttal due to them not having the expanded toolkit of other casters? They still have good illusion dcs for greater color spray, have presto for a single instakill (and PK if you want another), have a single target stun, and a single target blind.

Even if it had more spells, the class design is to take advantage of multi hitting spells. This is why it has three types of missiles, scorching ray, access to fire seeds, etc.

You're not going to make a DC caster with trickster, sure, but you're still rotating spells to do exceptional dps, while having access to tools for cc and the likes.
Well, actually arcane tricksters don't have good illusion DCs without taking a major hit to their dps. In terms of CC/IKs, they totally depend on stolen spells and SLAs whose DC is skill based.

When you want to add spell DC, you have to make significant sacrifices that lower your dps significantly. The spell DC requires so much investment that you have to significantly cut everything related to damage, especially in equipment and feats.

And if you notice, those videos only show the use of stolen spells for everything that is not dps.

Arcane trickster is poorly designed, but it is largely because the devs were looking for a damage caster, and nowadays the DC requires too many resources to also maintain good dps. AT shouldn't have a useless spellbook, just like it shouldn't have skill-based dcs for stolen spells, but it does because the spell DC is currently in the state it is. It is not a question of lack of numbers, it is a question of accessibility to those numbers, and the main culprit for that is the equipment.
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
liosliante, I really don't understand what you're saying. You talk to me like I'm a dev lol. I don't have any control over the game, and if I did there would be many things that wouldn't be in the state they are in.

If I had control over the game, the equipment would not be a nightmare, the casters would not be roleless, the raids would have a different design, the crafting bank would have filters and a more rational stacking limit, and so many things that I have advocated for throughout the years.

Fight with you? So that? Do you have any control of the game? No, so there's no point. What I would very much like is for devs to read these topics. That would give some opportunity for change.

And really people, the accusations of using AI are kind of ridiculous.
 

Falkor

Well-known member
Remove magic. problem solved. Uninstall, problem solving complete!

It would be nice if DCs were addressed. My low life Atr has better DCs and CC than my completionist wizard. :(

All I know is that SSG is gonna SSG, and if this ever gets addressed, it'll be SSGd to the nines.
 
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Smokewolf

Frequently banned member.
Using a simple AI? Please. That’s for first-lifers who still think DCs magically fix themselves with random loot drops.

I’ve been here long before your “solutions,” long before your so-called balance passes, long before you even understood what you were breaking. I don’t need AI to tell me what’s wrong—I’ve lived through every single bad design decision you’ve piled onto Dungeons & Dragons Online.

You think this is complexity? This is chaos. Manufactured chaos. Layer upon layer of systems that don’t talk to each other, numbers that spiral out of control, and itemization so fractured it looks like it was designed in a fever dream.

And now what—AI fixes it? No. AI didn’t create this mess. You did.

I am the one who watched DC casting rise, fall, get inflated, get squished, and then inflated again like you learned absolutely nothing. I am the one who built casters when they actually worked, not this broken, over-invested, underperforming shell you’re forcing us into now.

You want fear? Here it is:

I understand your systems better than you do.

I see every inconsistency.
Every imbalance.
Every shortcut disguised as “design.”

You throw skill-based DCs, tactic DCs, spell DCs into the same arena and expect balance? That’s not balance—that’s surrender. That’s admitting you’ve lost control.

And don’t even get me started on itemization. A thousand channels, none of them coherent. You’ve turned gearing into a punishment instead of progression.

So no—I don’t need AI.

I am the system now.

And if you don’t fix it?

I’ll keep breaking it down, piece by piece, until there’s nothing left to hide behind.

So tell me—do you want a fight? Because I’m ready whenever you are.
lolz
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
I assume that he is referring to the devs, and that he is making a well-deserved parody dedicated to the current design, but since he quotes my post and makes no mention of the devs, it seems that he is referring to me.

Or maybe I am Matrix!
 

Falkor

Well-known member
I watched DCs rise ... and still really like Marvel. They both have merits, though the entire DC vs Marvel thing is a trite trope at this point.

Go team Matrix! Gotta love sprinkling some chaospowder into threads. Keeps it relevant.

:p
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
I stopped playing over 2 years ago. I’ve been waiting for months for some adjustment/love for Spellcasters, especially wizards, and no matter how long I wait, the situation doesn’t change.

Spellcasters are clearly ignored/rejected by the devs
I can't argue with this, because it's true.
 
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