Spell DCs/saves...it's time, devs.

[Wizard]

And really people, the accusations of using AI are kind of ridiculous.

In my opinion, accusing someone of using AI is just another attempt to discredit someone's opinion when you don't have any arguments.

 

[Necrodancer]

liosliante, I really don't understand what you're saying. You talk to me like I'm a dev lol. I don't have any control over the game, and if I did there would be many things that wouldn't be in the state they are in.

If I had control over the game, the equipment would not be a nightmare, the casters would not be roleless, the raids would have a different design, the crafting bank would have filters and a more rational stacking limit, and so many things that I have advocated for throughout the years.

Fight with you? So that? Do you have any control of the game? No, so there's no point. What I would very much like is for devs to read these topics. That would give some opportunity for change.

And really people, the accusations of using AI are kind of ridiculous.

Read 2 posts from him/her and that was more than enough to convince me to update ignore list. Clearly the "gentleperson" isn't accustomed to reading anything longer than mcdonald's menu.

/squelch and move on.

In my opinion, accusing someone of using AI is just another attempt to discredit someone's opinion when you don't have any arguments.

Or they're just no longer used to read anything longer than 2 sentences and attribute such gargantuan mental effort to AI because it's easier to explain

 

[Ogre]

Well, actually arcane tricksters don't have good illusion DCs without taking a major hit to their dps. In terms of CC/IKs, they totally depend on stolen spells and SLAs whose DC is skill based.

When you want to add spell DC, you have to make significant sacrifices that lower your dps significantly. The spell DC requires so much investment that you have to significantly cut everything related to damage, especially in equipment and feats.

And if you notice, those videos only show the use of stolen spells for everything that is not dps.

Arcane trickster is poorly designed, but it is largely because the devs were looking for a damage caster, and nowadays the DC requires too many resources to also maintain good dps. AT shouldn't have a useless spellbook, just like it shouldn't have skill-based dcs for stolen spells, but it does because the spell DC is currently in the state it is. It is not a question of lack of numbers, it is a question of accessibility to those numbers, and the main culprit for that is the equipment.

Yeah, see the line about being a DC caster in my previous post. But it's still reasonable to get over 100 illusion dcs without much investment into specifically dcs. I don't buy the forum rhetoric that anything under 130dcs is useless, because first hand experience is more valuable to me.

The reason you see a rotation of mm, sla mm, fm, sla fm, instead of using other spells isn't because of a DC disparity, it's because that's what optimizes multiple hits for magical ambush. Trickster is well designed, but forum arguments want to compare it to other casters, which it is not.

Personally, I play it at cap, with 1300 spell powers with metas, over 100 in illusion (which isn't even necessary), over 4k hp, and have no issues. If the entire argument is "they're a bad caster because they don't match what I define as a caster", then maybe a broader view should be considered.

 

[Smokewolf]

Arcane trickster is poorly designed, but it is largely because the devs were looking for a damage caster, and nowadays the DC requires too many resources to also maintain good dps. AT shouldn't have a useless spellbook, just like it shouldn't have skill-based dcs for stolen spells, but it does because the spell DC is currently in the state it is. It is not a question of lack of numbers, it is a question of accessibility to those numbers, and the main culprit for that is the equipment.

Personally I'm totally fine with Skill-Based casting and think it should be extended to all casting classes. Which is why I've been pushing for the highest of Concentration or Spell Craft, so long as its implemented consistently across those classes.

Just, think about it for a moment... Even if the Reaper penalties are not rolled back (which SSG wont) and all the other issues remain (which they likely will), skill-based DC casting would be so good that no one would care. Mob stat-bloat wouldn't even be a concern anymore, and DC casting would have a secure place in groups / raids again, as the DnD-God's intended.

About AT... IMHO it should of NEVER been released with such a reduced spell-book and force spells with such blatantly gimped AoE. Never mind the fact that it has ZERO synergy with the other Rogue enh-trees or any other class / tree for that matter. Making it DoA from the moment it was released, just like all the other caster archetypes. (I'm thinking that this is not a coincidence either.) But Sure everyone will play it, but only to grind out the past-lives then move on to more important things that actually have a meaningful role within DDO.

SSG should be ashamed for releasing the AT in this state and tarnishing what was one a favored Archetype for many PnP players.

 

[Lazuli]

Skill based DCs are not going to give casters a role. I have a wizard with very good DCs and that does not make her desirable in raids (where the only thing that matters is dps), nor does it make her especially desirable for quests. Not because my wizard is not good at quests, which she is, but because nowadays martials do not need casters, nor their CC, nor their IKs. If I participate I collaborate, but I am not necessary, and the wizard's place could perfectly be occupied by another dps. Skill based DCs are not going to change that. I already have good DCs. It is not a DC problem. It's a problem that the martial dps is so good, and their defenses are so high, that they don't need the CC of the casters. And if by chance they need CC, many martials have magnificent CC.

Skill based DCs only create more problems, they don't solve anything.

 

[Synalon]

Personally I'm totally fine with Skill-Based casting and think it should be extended to all casting classes. Which is why I've been pushing for the highest of Concentration or Spell Craft, so long as its implemented consistently across those classes.

Just, think about it for a moment... Even if the Reaper penalties are not rolled back (which SSG wont) and all the other issues remain (which they likely will), skill-based DC casting would be so good that no one would care. Mob stat-bloat wouldn't even be a concern anymore, and DC casting would have a secure place in groups / raids again, as the DnD-God's intended.

About AT... IMHO it should of NEVER been released with such a reduced spell-book and force spells with such blatantly gimped AoE. Never mind the fact that it has ZERO synergy with the other Rogue enh-trees or any other class / tree for that matter. Making it DoA from the moment it was released, just like all the other caster archetypes. (I'm thinking that this is not a coincidence either.) But Sure everyone will play it, but only to grind out the past-lives then move on to more important things that actually have a meaningful role within DDO.

SSG should be ashamed for releasing the AT in this state and tarnishing what was one a favored Archetype for many PnP players.

I've seen his AT in action. It's very strong. AT has amazing single-target DPS, a smattering of good cc, good defenses and fun powerful mage hand abilities. If it had good aoe on top of this it would be so brokenly OP it's not even funny. The complaints it's 'dead on arrival' are just incorrect.

 

[Falkor]

Skill based DCs are interesting, and I'm alright with it as well. It's an innovative way to expand the game. It has merit.

Perhaps the Feat based DCs (Necro Enchant Evo , Etc) ... needs to just be a higher number. +1 is lackluster. +5? +10? Something that's reasonable.

+10 would make a big difference, but not be game breaking considering how high monster saves are in legendary.

And yes, in response to Ogri, I've also found 110~ DCs to work well enough in R10s. It's not no-fail, but around 95% ... which is good enough. I think some people expect / demand no fail environments.

Which we have with skill-based DCs ... sooooo .... I'm at a loss really.

 

[Lazuli]

Yeah, see the line about being a DC caster in my previous post. But it's still reasonable to get over 100 illusion dcs without much investment into specifically dcs. I don't buy the forum rhetoric that anything under 130dcs is useless, because first hand experience is more valuable to me.

The reason you see a rotation of mm, sla mm, fm, sla fm, instead of using other spells isn't because of a DC disparity, it's because that's what optimizes multiple hits for magical ambush. Trickster is well designed, but forum arguments want to compare it to other casters, which it is not.

Personally, I play it at cap, with 1300 spell powers with metas, over 100 in illusion (which isn't even necessary), over 4k hp, and have no issues. If the entire argument is "they're a bad caster because they don't match what I define as a caster", then maybe a broader view should be considered.

This was precisely my point. AT does not play by the same rules as the other casters, and cannot be used as an example. It's not its spells (which it shares with Wiz/Sorc) that are good, it's the added damage they've given to it. It doesn't have good DC because the DC system works, but because they have given to it another DC system.

And therefore it is something completely separate from the rest of the casters, which cannot be used as a comparison.

And what I have said is true. If you want to have true spell DC with an AT - to use color spray or ED spells, or the spellbook itself - you have to take a significant hit to the dps. But very significant. Because if you enter the normal DC system you will have to make hellish balances to equip all the DC bonuses (which are many, too many), which will prevent you from taking many damage bonuses. You'll have to give up a lot of sneak attacks to be able to take DC feats, etc.

I don't think it's designed well, because I don't think it should have useless spellbook spells, and some stole spells with 50+ more bonus than conventional casters. Having DC discrepancies of 50 points makes very difficult to balance everything. One may wonder, if it is correct that the AT has IKs with no failure and hardly any inversion, why can't my wizard also have them? What are they going to do in the next expansion, balance the enemy mobs for the AT DCs or for the conventional casters DCs?

100 DC is painful low in end game.

 

[Fizzix]

I think back to EQ, I know totally different game, but there were enchanters, which had pretty craptacular dps but were still very very sought after in grouping and raiding. why?

They could do short term haste on melees that stacked with everything and was class exclusive and they could lock down mobs hard with stuns, as well as charm them, and slow them that worked on almost everything and not haveing an enchanter (or bard) was death to the group unless you had a super tank or good healing.

They provided damage shields/absorbtion as well. Allowing clerics and healers breathing room between heals on the MT and support.

Even in raids their slows worked on everything and were part of the design, a raid boss without a slow was suicide, theyd steam roll the tank then everyone in the 40 person raid lol.

Lockdowns stuns worked almost everything but minibosses and end bosses. and during those fights they were hasting and blocking damage and channeling mana to the dps casters. In EQ a lot of fights we DPS tests where more and more trash spawned or the DPSoutput went parabolic if you didnt kill the boss fast enough. so their CC abilities allowed a little more time to complete the task. I dont know homany times we chased that last 1% of boss mob health before rampage mechanic the enchanters were all pounding thier keyboards tab shifting doing CC on a bajillion adds like mission control during a nuclear meltdown and they saved the day.

I think they could even wipe the aggro table of a mob iirc.

In Eq mobs were scary. almost every group of mobs required the ability to single pull out of the pack and enchanters could accomplish the task.. they also controlled the flow of battle. was pretty damn fun class to be honest.

so a low dps caster class was useful and fun, because they were not blocked 90% of the time by mob immunity, their absence had to be counterbalanced by insanely good gearing and healing . Bards could fulfill the role partially.

I am not sure what I am saying other than clever design can make things other than chasing DPS a good time/a fun challenge.

 

[Lazuli]

Of course, Fizz, that's the problem. There is no other role than dps, and only dps is useful for everything. Bosses are immune to everything that is not damage, so those that do not have dps will be useless or much less useful.

Dps is king is the result of a wrong design, but it comes from very very ago. Although it is especially bad now, the problem goes back a long way.

And I'm going home. Have a good day, people!

 

[Fizzix]

Of course, Fizz, that's the problem. There is no other role than dps, and only dps is useful for everything. Bosses are immune to everything that is not damage, so those that do not have dps will be useless or much less useful.

Dps is king is the result of a wrong design, but it comes from very very ago. Although it is especially bad now, the problem goes back a long way.

And I'm going home. Have a good day, people!

yep so then imbalances in dps are more of a concern between classes and become the argument and even worse, there's no legit way to measure so every thing is anecdotal.

 

[Konsumer]

You are both entirely right and completely wrong.

Yes, because caster gear is crazy hard to fit together requiring way too much effort. And without strong gear you a *****.

No, because even a caster with *completely optimal gear* is still not competitive in almost all R10 groups (you only really kill the unimportant stuff and your cc is rarely really needed) and in many raids. Even a no-fail caster is still not really competitive.

Just goes to show that the problem is more complex.

you must be playing alongside some really terrible casters.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

Skill based DCs are not going to give casters a role. I have a wizard with very good DCs and that does not make her desirable in raids (where the only thing that matters is dps), nor does it make her especially desirable for quests. Not because my wizard is not good at quests, which she is, but because nowadays martials do not need casters, nor their CC, nor their IKs. If I participate I collaborate, but I am not necessary, and the wizard's place could perfectly be occupied by another dps. Skill based DCs are not going to change that. I already have good DCs. It is not a DC problem. It's a problem that the martial dps is so good, and their defenses are so high, that they don't need the CC of the casters. And if by chance they need CC, many martials have magnificent CC.

Skill based DCs only create more problems, they don't solve anything.

Right. The problem with DC casters is really 2 separate problems that require different solutions.

1) The system is broken. Player DC potential ranges from ~100 to 200+. This doesn't work with a D20 system. Monster saves range from ~70 to 150+, again same problem. Any of the proposed solutions in this thread could fix the issue, whether its D100, Ac-style, or a meticulous reworking of all player gear and monster stats. I suspect however that, while the latter is probably the best option, its also the most dev work and therefore unlikely to happen.

2) Assuming the system gets fixed, DC casters still struggle to find a role in endgame groups. Most newer raids are poorly designed, and quest r10 difficulty is a joke. The solution can only be to buff trash monsters and design raids better. No buffs to casters can actually fix this issue.

 

[Necrodancer]

If the DCs are so low, DPS so abysmal and gear so hard to tetris, it only goes to show how much the devs care about casters. This is not something that happens overnight or even a year.

Took over 2 years of almost monthly threads about how casters were lagging behind and all we got was Cordovan saying he passed the message to dev team and they acknowledged the issue. Don't you just love this game?

 

[DBZ]

I've seen his AT in action. It's very strong. AT has amazing single-target DPS, a smattering of good cc, good defenses and fun powerful mage hand abilities. If it had good aoe on top of this it would be so brokenly OP it's not even funny. The complaints it's 'dead on arrival' are just incorrect.

So brokenly op its not even funny welcome to roarrs and repeaters online get er done

 

[Konsumer]

On top of all of that, casters have to get a spell pen of 60-70 for high level reapers. Just getting to 45 was a herculean effort for me.

 

[630]

I don't believe skill-based casting is worse than the current system. It will introduce some problems, but solving those problems might end up being a good solution overall.
Skill-based DC's will not fix the caster role but it can fix other challenges.

If you look at how the current skill-based casting has been implemented, it has been mostly well received because it brings new opportunities. A well geared lower life player can now contribute better in more difficult content. I don't mind that a low lifer is as strong as my completionist toons.

I see a lot of reluctance towards change, but most can agree something needs to change with endgame casting. It needs to be balanced along the way, but change is good.

Bringing skill-based DC's to the caster classes needs a lot thought before implementing. There still needs to be a reason to max out your main stat, so we dont end up with con based wizards(concentration) or int based sorcerers(spellcraft). The current way with skill-based DCs comes from the enhancement trees. I could see Hold Monster Mass and Finger of Death being in the wizard trees scaling with a skill.
This suggestion will not fix caster for sure, there are bigger problems. But I believe it will make it easier for newer players or veteran players starting an alt to enjoy more content.

 

[Lazuli]

It's not resistance to change. It's that proposing a change to a skill-based system means that suddenly our DCS would increase from 50 to 70 points, and the system *isn't* ready for that.

The new post-MD content needs a slight reduction in mob saves, but it's just a little. Like 5 points or less. We don't need a 50-point increase. Definitely not.

I want change! I want an overhaul of the equipment system, which is awful. Of course I want change. I've been begging for changes for years, in this and other things. But the system isn't ready for a 50-point hit increase, people... Can't you see? That would break everything, and don't get your hopes up, it would be followed by a brutal upward adjustment to mob saves.

Look, change is needed. Yes, yes, yes. I've been saying it for YEARS. This equipment system is awful. I want them to change it. I want caster DCs to be like tactical DCs, so I can equip two easy-to-obtain items and that's it. I don't want to have to juggle a hellish puzzle of six or seven stats, several of them hard to get and appearing on very few items, and the same goes for spell damage. Raid augments shouldn't be necessary to get something as basic as spell DCs (and if you don't use raid augments, you'll have to resort to old sets with significantly lower bonuses).

So, yes, the equipment needs to be changed. Of course, this is necessary. Because I can achieve decent DCs even ona first lifer because I have a lot of things the average player doesn't, so it's not a problem of final numbers (although it wouldn't be bad if they improved them by a small amount—not by 50 points, lol). The devs shouldn't make it difficult to equip DCs. There are already chase DCs with reaper items (which, by the way, should also have their cost reduced) and with curses. There's no need to make regular gear hard to find. It's wrong. It's yet another thing that's killing off players who aren't super active in the game.

Filigrees are another thing that needs improvement; we shouldn't have to invest them all in DCs to be competitive.

But people, realize that a 50+ points to DCs is NOT balanced. This isn't resistance to change. It's common sense. And if they change to the skill system anyway, they're going to have to overhaul the gear, removing a bunch of stats that won't be used anymore, so… why not do things right from the start?

And once it's easy to acquire decent DCs without having to play tetris and have a thousand rare things, then they can eliminate the other skill DCs the game has. Because it's not balanced.

And devs, the d20 system doesn't care if our bonuses are +4 or +500; what it cares about is that the values of those who are specialists in the roll and those who aren't remain within a 20-point difference. Will you stop pushing so hard for super-specialization? That's what breaks the d20 system. The differences shouldn't be greater than 20 points!

 

[630]

It is possible to balance two things at once, maybe not for SSG, but in a perfect world.

You could give players 50-70 more DC's and balance mobs around that. You could also balance skills to make it harder to reach those numbers. I don't think +50 DC's in the current state is balanced. But reaching a decent amount of DC's should be more accessible for everyone.

I agree that gearing is in a awful state atm, for all classes but mostly casters. I think the goal should be for players with decent toons and gear to land their spells without needing 7 different kinds of DC bonuses along with raid filigrees to feel useful. This is poor design and just not fun.

 

[Lazuli]

I agree with reaching a decent amount of DC's should be more accessible for everyone. But i don't think skill based DCs are the way.

It's basically a problem with the developers' philosophy. They currently have this idea that many things have to be difficult to obtain or downright super rare. In the spell DC, we see several channels that fall into this category. And if the developers have this belief with the current system, do you think they won't have it with any other system, like skill DCs?

Do you know what will happen if they switch to skill DCs without changing that philosophy? Well, obtaining skills will be broken once again in multiple channels, some of them very difficult to get. And we'll be right back where we are now.

It's the developers' philosophy that everything has to be difficult to obtain that's flawed. I don't know what's gotten into them lately that everything has to be rare or a huge grind. They've lost their minds, really. They've completely lost it. Completely.

Yesterday I was playing the new quests with a group, and people were commenting on them, and two phrases (neither of them mine) caught my attention. One said: "It seems like everything has to be rere lately. Soon we won't have items with normal drop." Another said: "Soon we won't have anything that isn't a hellish grind." The phrases are reproduced from memory, so they are not the exact words, but that's what they said.

That's what a lot of people in the game feel, devs. More isn't always better. Please practice the noble art of moderation.