Necrodancer
Ancient beyond measure
Or do the wrong thing. It's their own messed up version of monkey paw.
Spell DCs/saves...it's time, devs.
- Thread starter Mechgraber
- Start date
Maybe change all epic destinies to say, "+1 to all Spell DCs" from, "+1 epic bonus to all Spell DCs". Simple, easy and why was this ever even a thing. Ah yeh, punitive caster design. Do any other epic core bonuses not stack? No.
As for damage in reaper, just remove or half the punitive spell damage scaling. Elite to r1 is shocking, r7+ is a disgrace.
If CC and instakills are seen as a problem give mobs deathblock, increase SR.
You cannot balance an entire game based on long term progression around those who have progressed the most. Perhaps you have noticed that in every MMO, in every game, it is the veteran players who are the most vocal about exaggerating unbalance they already earned. New and newer players are never, not ever going to "catch up", so completionist supremacy is forever assured, there is no need to poison the well for people who love the game but haven't been doing it for 15 years.
But we can't have simple solutions, and/or changes cannot be made because the time invested by veteran players entitles them to endless, pointless debate. So, the devs do nothing, because it is easy. And the community does not grow because new players that actually like the game either play alone ad aeternum or give up. DDO is the best single player MMORPG out there.
As for damage in reaper, just remove or half the punitive spell damage scaling. Elite to r1 is shocking, r7+ is a disgrace.
If CC and instakills are seen as a problem give mobs deathblock, increase SR.
You cannot balance an entire game based on long term progression around those who have progressed the most. Perhaps you have noticed that in every MMO, in every game, it is the veteran players who are the most vocal about exaggerating unbalance they already earned. New and newer players are never, not ever going to "catch up", so completionist supremacy is forever assured, there is no need to poison the well for people who love the game but haven't been doing it for 15 years.
But we can't have simple solutions, and/or changes cannot be made because the time invested by veteran players entitles them to endless, pointless debate. So, the devs do nothing, because it is easy. And the community does not grow because new players that actually like the game either play alone ad aeternum or give up. DDO is the best single player MMORPG out there.
Konsumer
Well-known member
Oh hell nah. No fail Spell pen requirements are already unattainable. Making it worse won't help. High DC's are useless if your spell pen isn't breaking through.
Synalon
Choose another soldier
No-fail spell pen is certainly attainable... When I was at cap on my Wizard, I did not really invest in spell pen much and it was basically no-fail against everything, with some MD drow and a couple enemies in Lamordia where I would fail on like a 2.
This is what I had:
27 CL
9 equipment bonus
9 Wiz + FvS past lives
5 Pale master cores
3 Feydark
10 Magus
For 63 total. This was enough for any content.
Here are some other sources of spell pen:
+10 artifact
+1 equipment (from a +10 item)
+5 insightful item
+3 quality item
+3 legendary item
+2 arcane augmentation item
+3 eclipse power EPL
+3 arcanum racial enhancement
+10 dark bargainer vampire lord enhancement
+5 fatesinger
+2 spell pen feat
+2 greater spell pen feat
+4 epic spell pen feat
And I'm sure I'll have forgotten something. So even if you don't have the past lives or run a different class or ED, there are many options to increase your spell pen. No fail is certainly not 'unattainable' even for a first lifer. You can get spell pen of over 100 if you want.
Konsumer
Well-known member
not everyone has the benefit of being a single class wizard using magus. my sorc ek using draconic can barely get 45. r10s need 60-70 for no fail. i suspect that will increase soon.
Pano
Grandmaster of Seriousness
Signed
The same system as AC would be too forgiving and too 'wide'. But I also figured out that the 1-20 window around a 120 base stat is too narrow. The new formula has to be explicit and transparent though.
I really wish more people would see the mathematical problem in this 1-20 design added to bigger and bigger numbers.
My take on this would be to also add bonuses to the dice size you are rolling (I know this sounds thematicly weird, but it is mathematicly solid). So your spells would roll something like DCs+d(20+level) against saves? So at higher levels you have bigger window where your DCs are useful.
This would be same difficulty as of now to get no-fail spells. but the spells will start to get useful at lower DCs.
The same system as AC would be too forgiving and too 'wide'. But I also figured out that the 1-20 window around a 120 base stat is too narrow. The new formula has to be explicit and transparent though.
I really wish more people would see the mathematical problem in this 1-20 design added to bigger and bigger numbers.
My take on this would be to also add bonuses to the dice size you are rolling (I know this sounds thematicly weird, but it is mathematicly solid). So your spells would roll something like DCs+d(20+level) against saves? So at higher levels you have bigger window where your DCs are useful.
This would be same difficulty as of now to get no-fail spells. but the spells will start to get useful at lower DCs.
I just want to add, I'm in the pool of 'First-lifers hitting Legendary and struggling to even reach 80 DCs'. The brick wall I hit is absolutely insane; maybe the saves of monsters in Legendary content made sense when it first came out, compared to the people who'd already been at pre-Legendary cap for a while and had built up their Sentient Weapons, all the best filigree, tomes, etc.
But for players who start the game now, when there's just an unbroken levelling path up to 30s and than *SLAM*, your spells are suddenly doing nothing? It's awful. It genuinely makes me consider dropping the game, because I love spellcasters but my experience with them so far has been *awful*. Heroics are fine, Epics are okay, and then I hit 30 and suddenly I'm useless.
But for players who start the game now, when there's just an unbroken levelling path up to 30s and than *SLAM*, your spells are suddenly doing nothing? It's awful. It genuinely makes me consider dropping the game, because I love spellcasters but my experience with them so far has been *awful*. Heroics are fine, Epics are okay, and then I hit 30 and suddenly I'm useless.
Yup, this is a clear game design flaw. D&D and the D20 system were never intended for players having a DC difference that big. It only really works if numbers are within 10 points or so (because success chance <50% means it's not worth casting. It just wastes SP and you could have cast something else in that time). And in MMOs number differences do get too big.
The martial "whiffing" problem got updated in about 2010 afaik, it's HIGH time for DCs now.
Martials go from rarely grazing to getting a few more grazes in legendaries. This is not a big deal because they attack a LOT faster than spellcasting and it costs no resources to swing your weapon. And you can get gradually better once you gear up. Getting spells from "never works" to "works decently" however, is much bigger undertaking - way too much for non-hardcore players.
There is no reason, lorewise or gameplay wise for casters to be any more penalized than martials. At the very least for damage spells they should have a very good hit chance just like martials and arcane tricksters have. But better change how all DCs work.
Smokewolf
Frequently banned member.
Its DoA for its poor AoE, limited spellbook and lack of symertry with other Rogue trees. Once the newness of AT wears off, few will play it as it offers nothing that cant be done better by preexisting classes and archetypes.
Lol, okay.
Synalon
Choose another soldier
Well obviously this person is insensible to reason but further info for anyone reading: I just finished up three past lives for it and, even though the AoE is lacking, it didn't matter because the single-target DPS is so strong you can just tab between enemies and one-shot them in turn almost as quickly. It's survivable and has stolen spell DCs that are effective even for high reaper heroics. I survived an r7 Belly of the Beast. This on top of the full trapping and fun long-range mage hand disable. That's without even getting to cap and really making the most of its DPS, which as I said I've seen in action. 'DoA' is a lunatic claim.
Smokewolf
Frequently banned member.
Your forgetting that SSG has a tenancy to Nerf the crap out of "new" archetypes a few months after release. Hence I'm already factoring in this fact, and the result it will have on those playing AT.
If your enjoying the class... Cool Beans, I'm happy for ya, but it won't stay that way.
vik
Well-known member
It's hard to say. SSG surprised a lot of us when they didn't nerf Dragonlord. Who knows if they'll nerf ATr?
Bjond
Well-known member
Sub-cap DCs have never been an issue. The DCs in that area are (imho) perfectly tuned. Pushing the proper attribute? Got some +DC gear? Cool, you're set for subcap play.
The failure is exclusively at-cap and particularly high reaper at-cap. The difference is so profound, it feels like betrayal to a new player. MMO run-up is supposed to train you for what happens at cap. DDO-Newbie struggles, gets some gear, feels good subcap. Tries that at-cap and it's just "nope", what were you thinking you ignorant peasant?
Casters actually use concentration? Why when you have quicken available?
Necrodancer
Ancient beyond measure
To complete the optional in madness of crowds, what else? No I mean literally, what else is concentration good for? Not to use scrolls, I don't put any points in concentration and never get interrupted when raising someone anyway.
Well.. that was answered in the bit you quoted - the skill is CON based, so it's balanced among Int/Wis/Cha casters, and at least has some connection to casting.
Synalon
Choose another soldier
Do you run high reaper heroics much? I did a life of them recently and hitting the save DCs on r10 on my Wizard was much harder than getting them usable for any content at cap, including Lamordia.
Smokewolf
Frequently banned member.
Not just at cap, any legendary quest.
And not just newbies, anyone who hasn't farmed out the best DC buffs on gear and filigrees etc. And not just high reaper, the base saves of mobs on elite which reaper is based on are already very high.
And the goalposts are constantly moved by way too much, Sharn mob saves were much higher than anything before, IoD saves again much higher, MD saves even higher, Chill saves sky high....