Spells, attacks, heals, buffs etc. should scale with character level not class level.

[Bazgrim]

This really neuters the entire multiclass mechanic. There are enough restrictions in place without it to make multiclassing an interesting choice without it being overpowered and it would open up a lot of build variety.

 

[DBZ]

Most older spells are hard capped for back when level 20 was cap now we have 32 levels

And yes multi classing is very disproportionate for casters vs melee - ranged builds that only get more max power from splashing

While casters have the trade off of lower cls n no capstones and if you had a working Shiradi epic destiny it would be over powered

 

[Xgya]

I still don't get why anyone thinks this would break anything else.

A level 32 character that's casting Magic Missiles as if those were still relevant?
They're only relevant to carry potential debuffs (and even then).

That tank could just as well use its Epic Strike to cast a much stronger spell scaling off the same level of spell power/critical it could already access with the previous magic missile idea.
It'll never make the split a good caster. Even if all three classes are casters, you gain a lot of low level spells cast at full caster level in exchange for any chance at higher level spells.
You can grab a few low-hanging fruits from various caster trees, but I don't think anything picked up there would ever be worth talking about. Not since Shiradi missile spam got nerfed into oblivion.

Any level 32 character that's still using spells below level 3 is either using them for buffs or for rider effects, so any argument about damage should probably be thrown out the window.

 

[rabidfox]

I still don't get why anyone thinks this would break anything else.

A level 32 character that's casting Magic Missiles as if those were still relevant?

It really has nothing to do with magic missiles. No one actually cares about magic missiles (well I certainly don't). We do care about the other builds people might do with 17 (caster) / (3 caster) to get 9th level spells and 2nd caster's tree for pumping up crit numbers and/or grabbing SLAs. It'll be real world builds like this that'll cause power bloat and OP builds, not the silly /1 wizard example people keep tossing around.

 

[DDO Gaming]

yes it would be nice if a cleric/rogue 7/7 can cast "cure critical wounds" at lvl14 but I suspect that will never happen .

 

[Shear-buckler]

It really has nothing to do with magic missiles. No one actually cares about magic missiles (well I certainly don't). We do care about the other builds people might do with 17 (caster) / (3 caster) to get 9th level spells and 2nd caster's tree for pumping up crit numbers and/or grabbing SLAs. It'll be real world builds like this that'll cause power bloat and OP builds, not the silly /1 wizard example people keep tossing around.

Some people seem to really care about magic missle. I dont get it either.
As for the 17/3 builds I just don't see how 3 casters levels would make them go from non-existant to OP, but it should certainly not be overlooked.

 

[Neain]

It really has nothing to do with magic missiles. No one actually cares about magic missiles (well I certainly don't). We do care about the other builds people might do with 17 (caster) / (3 caster) to get 9th level spells and 2nd caster's tree for pumping up crit numbers and/or grabbing SLAs. It'll be real world builds like this that'll cause power bloat and OP builds, not the silly /1 wizard example people keep tossing around.

magic missiles was simply one of the very very few examples that someone threw out to 'prove' one way or the other that it would be broken. I would like to see someone come up with a reason (not all the reasons, but one good solid reason) something WOULD be broken with the OPs suggestion.

I doubt the devs have even read this thread much less are even thinking about it, but I think its an interesting idea.

Also, what does broken mean? That you can do something that you couldn't before? then yes, it's gonna be 'broken'. do something better than someone who didn't multi-class? I'm not sold on that idea. I think it would give more build breadth, but not depth, and the top DPS/tank/healer/cc/instakiller builds either wouldn't be touched or would be touched in only very minor ways.

 

[Spook]

It really has nothing to do with magic missiles. No one actually cares about magic missiles (well I certainly don't). We do care about the other builds people might do with 17 (caster) / (3 caster) to get 9th level spells and 2nd caster's tree for pumping up crit numbers and/or grabbing SLAs. It'll be real world builds like this that'll cause power bloat and OP builds, not the silly /1 wizard example people keep tossing around.

Playing devils advocate again - why is it ok for melee to go 18/1/1 but not ok for casters to go 17/3? only thing that comes to mind is 17 sorc 3 fvs but havent really thought overly long on it

 

[rabidfox]

I would like to see someone come up with a reason (not all the reasons, but one good solid reason) something WOULD be broken with the OPs suggestion.

top DPS/tank/healer/cc/instakiller builds either wouldn't be touched or would be touched in only very minor ways.

I already gave an example. And once again 5 FvS / 15 other class (either cleric or druid for their heals). Go t5 BoH for close wounds & heal SLAs + healing wall, go druid tree for crit and other goodies plus enjoy double heal w/regeneration (or 17 FvS with 3 druid/cleric). It's a lot of extra crit and sla stacking.

 

[rabidfox]

Playing devils advocate again - why is it ok for melee to go 18/1/1 but not ok for casters to go 17/3? only thing that comes to mind is 17 sorc 3 fvs but havent really thought overly long on it

Because the game was designed and balanced around it. Like I said early on, could it open builds? Yes. Could it fun? Yes. Would it result in tons of power bloat and some OP builds? yes. Would it require tons of dev time to deal with the broken builds? Yes. It's opening a huge can of balance worms to change a core mechanic of the game and the dev time/effort involved seems like it would be a waste. People keep saying it wouldn't be an issue, it would be a major balance issue beyond current game balance issues and would take lots of work to reign it back in for little benefit.

 

[Neain]

I already gave an example. And once again 5 FvS / 15 other class (either cleric or druid for their heals). Go t5 BoH for close wounds & heal SLAs + healing wall, go druid tree for crit and other goodies plus enjoy double heal w/regeneration (or 17 FvS with 3 druid/cleric). It's a lot of extra crit and sla stacking.

the close wounds is already at max caster level without the changes listed by the OP. With druid your losing mass regen, with cleric im not sure what your missing but you ARE missing 9th-level spells. what does this get you that you don't have without the OPs change? 5 caster levels of 8th-level spells? what about that makes it OP? im not trying to troll or anything else, im trying to understand how that becomes OP or broken. (if I just disagree thats a different issue, im not understanding at the moment what it is thats OP about it)

edit: your getting the crit already without the OPs changes. what about the 5 more CLs changes things in a real manner?

 

[rabidfox]

the close wounds is already at max caster level without the changes listed by the OP. With druid your losing mass regen, with cleric im not sure what your missing but you ARE missing 9th-level spells. what does this get you that you don't have without the OPs change? 5 caster levels of 8th-level spells? what about that makes it OP? im not trying to troll or anything else, im trying to understand how that becomes OP or broken. (if I just disagree thats a different issue, im not understanding at the moment what it is thats OP about it)

edit: your getting the crit already without the OPs changes. what about the 5 more CLs changes things in a real manner?

It gets you the best healer tree which is FvS BoH combined with a 2nd healer tree and the spells players care about with more crit. Crit is a huge thing. Like massive. So that's 8% more crit chance with close wounds, heal SLA at full power, and heal wall at full power by going heavy multiclass and with only 5 FvS. And that's just me glancing at a build idea for all of a few seconds of thought. Imagine what people would do if they actually spent time figuring out how to min/max power from it...

 

[Neain]

It gets you the best healer tree which is FvS BoH combined with a 2nd healer tree and the spells players care about with more crit. Crit is a huge thing. Like massive. So that's 8% more crit chance with close wounds, heal SLA at full power, and heal wall at full power by going heavy multiclass and with only 5 FvS. And that's just me glancing at a build idea for all of a few seconds of thought. Imagine what people would do if they actually spent time figuring out how to min/max power from it...

thanks! I see the point where we disagree on what would be broken (and im not sure its a large disagreement, I might be on the fence about it). I wasn't thinking about the things in the T5 tree (wall of healing at full CL). but the crit parts you already get if you went that split on live. your already getting heal at max caster level (15), so getting more CLs wouldnt change that. the only part of what you listed off is the healing wall, and I will admit that im 100% on the fence if an ability from a T5 class tree should get the OPs suggestion. I will admit that I was mainly thinking about the spells that the classes get.

TLDR: only thing in this that would change from the OPs suggestion is heal wall from T5

 

[rabidfox]

I hate max caster level. I think it's stupid. It confuses both new players and many vets for what level a given spell is actually casting at vs what level they think it's casting at. I'd love to see it gone. I also think that if they got rid of it that it'd be herculean task that would result in major power bloat, OP builds, and would require insane amounts of dev time to rebalance everything. So it's entirely possible to think something is a fun idea and a bad idea at the same time just like the idea of spells scaling off character level that this thread is about. It's solving a problem most people don't consider a problem and creating a huge swath of balance problems in its wake.

 

[ACJ97F]

I'll give you an example of what I mean by skew. When we say an untrained 20 Fighter is still better than the 1 Fighter (the 1 vs 20 concept),
because he has class passives to boost skills, and you reply "he's not better than a 1 fighter/ level 19 wizard using tensers transformation",
you completely ignored the post to make an irrelevant point.

Yes, we agree that in some cases, passive skills can be duplicated with a spell, effect, or a Tree skill. What we're actually talking about, was
why ALL base L1 character dips can't attain the capability or power of a L20, and shouldn't. They stopped training at a certain point, and lose
all further progression in that class. Can they in cases compensate for Passive skills? Sure, but not all Class level-dependant skills.

----------------------------------

As a general example of something that would be knocked off-balance... our Healer. Decent DEF, but not a true tank by any means. He just
stands there taunting (XC), and throwing out and endless supply of SLA heals. Still can't remember when he died last.

Now the same build, as an actual tank with full-level spellcasting, would just bury him. Big boost to PRR/MRR, shield skills, stance ETC, with
the same non-stop healing he's throwing now? I'd consider that over the top. You'd probably need a Tactical nuke to get him under 90%.

 

[rabidfox]

thanks! I see the point where we disagree on what would be broken (and im not sure its a large disagreement, I might be on the fence about it). I wasn't thinking about the things in the T5 tree (wall of healing at full CL). but the crit parts you already get if you went that split on live. your already getting heal at max caster level (15), so getting more CLs wouldnt change that. the only part of what you listed off is the healing wall, and I will admit that im 100% on the fence if an ability from a T5 class tree should get the OPs suggestion. I will admit that I was mainly thinking about the spells that the classes get.

TLDR: only thing in this that would change from the OPs suggestion is heal wall from T5

You missed the heal SLA in FvS t5 there too; not just heal wall. That would be a heal SLA off only 5 FvS levels casting at full power combined with getting druid's heal spell. It's all those tree interactions that really push OP build possiblities. And there's a ton out there beyond just healers that would be silly strong.

 

[Shear-buckler]

thanks! I see the point where we disagree on what would be broken (and im not sure its a large disagreement, I might be on the fence about it). I wasn't thinking about the things in the T5 tree (wall of healing at full CL). but the crit parts you already get if you went that split on live. your already getting heal at max caster level (15), so getting more CLs wouldnt change that. the only part of what you listed off is the healing wall, and I will admit that im 100% on the fence if an ability from a T5 class tree should get the OPs suggestion. I will admit that I was mainly thinking about the spells that the classes get.

TLDR: only thing in this that would change from the OPs suggestion is heal wall from T5

Healing wall, like many BoH abilities, scale with Favoured soul levels, not caster levels.

 

[rabidfox]

Healing wall, like many BoH abilities, scale with Favoured soul levels, not caster levels.

<sigh> Really? This is the line you're going with? They boost off things like Divine Augmentation items; so... Nickpicking the wording at this point is just silly. So we should just reword all spells to say "wizard level" instead of "caster level" and problem solved.

 

[Shear-buckler]

I'll give you an example of what I mean by skew. When we say an untrained 20 Fighter is still better than the 1 Fighter (the 1 vs 20 concept),
because he has class passives to boost skills, and you reply "he's not better than a 1 fighter/ level 19 wizard using tensers transformation",
you completely ignored the post to make an irrelevant point.

No. I did not ignore the post and the point I made was highly relevant. You just keep completely missing it.

yes, we agree that in some cases, passive skills can be duplicated with a spell, effect, or a Tree skill. What we're actually talking about, was
why ALL base L1 character dips can't attain the capability or power of a L20, and shouldn't.

Under no suggestion in this thread would a level 1 wizard/ 19 fighter be as powerful a spellcaster as a level 20 wizard. If you believe that's what we are suggesting you need to do some more reading.

As a general example of something that would be knocked off-balance... our Healer. Decent DEF, but not a true tank by any means. He just
stands there taunting (XC), and throwing out and endless supply of SLA heals. Still can't remember when he died last.

Now the same build, as an actual tank with full-level spellcasting, would just bury him. Big boost to PRR/MRR, shield skills, stance ETC, with
the same non-stop healing he's throwing now? I'd consider that over the top. You'd probably need a Tactical nuke to get him under 90%.

What exactly do you mean would be different about the two cases? It's not very specific so it's hard to tell.

 

[Shear-buckler]

<sigh> Really? This is the line you're going with? They boost off things like Divine Augmentation items; so... Nickpicking the wording at this point is just silly. So we should just reword all spells to say "wizard level" instead of "caster level" and problem solved.

It's not a nitpick. If it works with divine augmentation then fine, you are ofcourse right. But I am pretty sure it doesn't because of how the tree is made up of abilities that specifically scale only from fvs levels and not epic levels (unless explicitly stated) or increases to caster levels.

 

[rabidfox]

It's not a nitpick. If it works with divine augmentation then fine, you are ofcourse right. But I am pretty sure it doesn't because of how the tree is made up of abilities that specifically scale only from fvs levels and not epic levels (unless explicitly stated) or increases to caster levels.

Fun fact when divine augmentation was first added to the game the FvS tree stuff was pretty much the only thing that played nice with it; a ton of spells didn't. I made a list of them and eventually Lich got the time to fix them (some stuff like druid spells don't all work yet still).