Spells, attacks, heals, buffs etc. should scale with character level not class level.

[Bazgrim]

This really neuters the entire multiclass mechanic. There are enough restrictions in place without it to make multiclassing an interesting choice without it being overpowered and it would open up a lot of build variety.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Fun fact when divine augmentation was first added to the game the FvS tree stuff was pretty much the only thing that played nice with it; a ton of spells didn't. I made a list of them and eventually Lich got the time to fix them (some stuff like druid spells don't all work yet still).

If that's the case then I am happy to have learnt something new about BoH.

I am more than willing to sidestep the main balance concerns by making it only about arcane spells. Healing spells are already pretty good even with lower caster levels since you don't need to scale them as much as damage spells to keep them relevant.

 

[Spook]

Because the game was designed and balanced around it. Like I said early on, could it open builds? Yes. Could it fun? Yes. Would it result in tons of power bloat and some OP builds? yes. Would it require tons of dev time to deal with the broken builds? Yes. It's opening a huge can of balance worms to change a core mechanic of the game and the dev time/effort involved seems like it would be a waste. People keep saying it wouldn't be an issue, it would be a major balance issue beyond current game balance issues and would take lots of work to reign it back in for little benefit.

So the only real objection is that you dont trust SSG to implement something like this properly even if in the long could open up more build choices?

I get the argument - SSG doesnt have a good track record but should the design space be limited to what we think SSG can safely deliver?

Again im pretty ambivalent im just curious to hear others arguments.

 

[rabidfox]

So the only real objection is that you dont trust SSG to implement something like this properly even if in the long could open up more build choices?

I get the argument - SSG doesnt have a good track record but should the design space be limited to what we think SSG can safely deliver?

Again im pretty ambivalent im just curious to hear others arguments.

Months if not years of broken imbalance should be a concern for anyone. The idea of changing things that most people are perfectly happy with seems silly. People asked for OP build examples that this would bring, I gave one (well I gave a few basic examples beyond that) and was dismissed for ages. One example I gave was strong enough to get this response:

The reality is many players are highly intellegent and would find ways to push changes like this in wild and powerful ways. It would require dev resources spent to cleaning up a change. Dev time is better spend elsewhere rather than changing something that's been core to game the whole time. Claiming things wouldn't be OP or that power bloat wouldn't happen is just a poor arguement being tossed around, of course it would happen and it would require work and time to fix.

 

[Neain]

You missed the heal SLA in FvS t5 there too; not just heal wall. That would be a heal SLA off only 5 FvS levels casting at full power combined with getting druid's heal spell. It's all those tree interactions that really push OP build possiblities. And there's a ton out there beyond just healers that would be silly strong.

ooh! Thanks! I don't play fsv and so didn't realize there was a heal there.

yeah, going 5/15 fsv/paly or fighter you could get 10? more caster levels (not sure how the +cl/max cl from epics would work with this) would def make this OP, that's like giving a pally a heal in their racial tree... wait... bladeforged exists... or a pally that gets access to radiant servant... im not actually saying your wrong, just pointing out that we already have things that are fairly close to that. or even... a halfling anything with a dragon mark of heal (this does come with charges, so it's not quite in the same area as a 40 sp heal SLA).

yes, it does seem to be more powerful for losing 5 levels from a fighter type and getting a full-strength heal. I'm not sure that it's broken territory as you're still going into T5 and so locking yourself out of the more martial T5s, and you're going to be missing the top tier spells from your other casting class, but that's also not something I'm gonna argue about. The line that is too much is different for all of us.

But thank you for the clarification, that's a FAR better argument than magic missile xD

 

[Neain]

now as a mental exercise, can you come up with another example that's not T5 fsv? xD
(only if you enjoy the idea though, as at this point I think both sides are clear enough that continuing to really argue is just someone trolling)

 

[Shear-buckler]

Dev time is better spend elsewhere rather than changing something that's been core to game the whole time.

Strongly disagree. Improving the character building is stengthening the core appeal of the game IMO. I'd much rather have a multiclass-supporting patch than a new expansion. It's not even close.

 

[Phoenicis]

Strongly disagree. Improving the character building is stengthening the core appeal of the game IMO. I'd much rather have a multiclass-supporting patch than a new expansion. It's not even close.

I think you greatly underestimate the ability of players to find the broken combination and exploit it.

Well. maybe exploit is the wrong word. Abuse. Abuse is a better word for what I'm talking about.

 

[rabidfox]

now as a mental exercise, can you come up with another example that's not T5 fsv? xD
(only if you enjoy the idea though, as at this point I think both sides are clear enough that continuing to really argue is just someone trolling)

17 druid (or BC) / 3 sorc (for either ice crit or acid crit) to maximize crit beyond what we can already do all without losing those 3 caster levels. That's pure power bloat.

 

[ACJ97F]

No. I did not ignore the post and the point I made was highly relevant. You just keep completely missing it.

When I am comparing the passive skills of a L1 Fighter compared to a L20 Fighter, and you reply, "but a 1 Warrior / 19 Wizard..." that's
pretty much the definition of "completely missing it". I am comparing a class, to itself, noting passive skills they lose from MC by level.

There is no possible way to say it simpler.

 

[Neain]

17 druid (or BC) / 3 sorc (for either ice crit or acid crit) to maximize crit beyond what we can already do all without losing those 3 caster levels. That's pure power bloat.

hmm, it is 3 cls, and you're not wrong about the bloat.
I might argue that its already stronger (and should be used instead of pure druid for the crit chance) on live and that 3 cls wont change much, but im not fully sure what that ends up being after all the spellpower boosting the spells that go past max level 15 (damage wise I think its just Tsunami?). This one does feel far more marginal than the first.

 

[Shear-buckler]

When I am comparing the passive skills of a L1 Fighter compared to a L20 Fighter, and you reply, "but a 1 Warrior / 19 Wizard..." that's
pretty much the definition of "completely missing it". I am comparing a class, to itself, in relation to passive skills they miss during MC.

There is no possible way to say it simpler.

Obviously a level 20 fighter is stronger than a level 1 fighter? I think we are talking past each other.
The point I made about armor proficiency was that a level 1 fighter gets heavy armor proficiency and is not required to take more fighter levels to keep that ability relevant. Yes, their bonuses with heavy armor will increase if they take more fighter levels, but there are many other ways to increase the bonus so that multiclasses can catch up. With spells your don't have that.

You see?

 

[rabidfox]

hmm, it is 3 cls, and you're not wrong about the bloat.
I might argue that its already stronger (and should be used instead of pure druid for the crit chance) on live and that 3 cls wont change much, but im not fully sure what that ends up being after all the spellpower boosting the spells that go past max level 15 (damage wise I think its just Tsunami?). This one does feel far more marginal than the first.

That was just a bloat at a glance things. Real builds take time to figure out and I'm not wasting my time min/maxing a system that doesn't exisit in game. It was just to counter the "nothing will be OP, give examples" junk people were saying. Bloat and OP builds would be a thing; and the devs would spend time to deal with it. I just got tired of the /1 wizard being tossed around like "see there's no power bloat that matters here". There's zero reason to waste time figuring out OP builds for a system that doesn't exist; if this was added to the game, I'd figure out silly builds the second it hit lam.

 

[Eltronin]

<sigh> Really? This is the line you're going with? They boost off things like Divine Augmentation items; so... Nickpicking the wording at this point is just silly. So we should just reword all spells to say "wizard level" instead of "caster level" and problem solved.

Careful, using common sense and their own argument against them will just cause them to argue differently. It is never ending even when they contradict themselves.

 

[Neain]

That was just a bloat at a glance things. Real builds take time to figure out and I'm not wasting my time min/maxing a system that doesn't exisit in game. It was just to counter the "nothing will be OP, give examples" junk people were saying. Bloat and OP builds would be a thing; and the devs would spend time to deal with it. I just got tired of the /1 wizard being tossed around like "see there's no power bloat that matters here". There's zero reason to waste time figuring out OP builds for a system that doesn't exist; if this was added to the game, I'd figure out silly builds the second it hit lam.

that IS why I said to only reply to that comment if you enjoyed the mental exercise. I understand not digging deeper, just note that at this point im going down the rabbit hole of 'ok if it actually is broken, how broken would it get'. The strongest example is the FSV t5, and that's plenty to prove that side of the discussion/argument (at least for me, even if I disagree that that's where the line of OP is).

 

[Shear-buckler]

That was just a bloat at a glance things. Real builds take time to figure out and I'm not wasting my time min/maxing a system that doesn't exisit in game. It was just to counter the "nothing will be OP, give examples" junk people were saying. Bloat and OP builds would be a thing; and the devs would spend time to deal with it. I just got tired of the /1 wizard being tossed around like "see there's no power bloat that matters here". There's zero reason to waste time figuring out OP builds for a system that doesn't exist; if this was added to the game, I'd figure out silly builds the second it hit lam.

That some new builds would be slightly stronger than current builds does not make them OP. Your 17 druid / 3 sorc is example gains what, 10% more damage?
If that build currently is weaker than a 20 druid you have de deduct the opportunity cost from those 10% and it's looking a whole lot less OP. On the other hand it gives the druid caster an avenue to specialise or generalise and opens up plenty of options.

 

[Lacci]

But thank you for the clarification, that's a FAR better argument than magic missile xD

Since I was the one who brought magic missile into this... MM was not meant as an example for an OP build, it was the first spell that came to my mind that scales with caster level.

 

[rabidfox]

10% more damage?

If you think 10% more damage isn't a big deal then we're playing the game differently.

 

[ACJ97F]

Well, they do though. If they want to boost their Heavy Armors effectiveness, they need the Training, Combatant, Master, and Champion
feats, a valuable 30 MRR/PRR boost. I get what you mean, but they have to use feats for that as well, the same with the Metamagic feats
to boost the casters firepower. Physical or Magical, they still burn a similar amount of feats to stay relevant, and even moreso if you also
consider that doesn't even count Style or Shield feats, making "maxing out" a Fighter (esp a tank) even more feat-devouring.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Since I was the one who brought magic missile into this... MM was not meant as an example for an OP build, it was the first spell that came to my mind that scales with caster level.

Multiple posters have claimed that MM would become imbalanced...

 

[Shear-buckler]

If you think 10% more damage isn't a big deal then we're playing the game differently.

It's good but not game breaking. It's not like class DPS is balanced to within 10% of each other to begin with.