Spells, attacks, heals, buffs etc. should scale with character level not class level.

[Bazgrim]

This really neuters the entire multiclass mechanic. There are enough restrictions in place without it to make multiclassing an interesting choice without it being overpowered and it would open up a lot of build variety.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Well, they do though. If they want to boost their Heavy Armors effectiveness, they need the Training, Combatant, Master, and Champion
feats, a valuable 30 MRR/PRR boost. I get what you mean, but they have to use feats for that as well, the same with the Metamagic feats
to boost the casters firepower. Physical or Magical, they still burn a similar amount of feats to stay relevant, and even moreso if you also
consider that doesn't even count Style or Shield feats, making "maxing out" a Fighter (esp a tank) even more feat-devouring.

I honestly don't know what you are trying to say in relation to the topic that you think I disagree with.

 

[rabidfox]

It's good but not game breaking. It's not like class DPS is balanced to within 10% of each other to begin with.

Well, that was a top tier DPS nuker getting more crit, but okay... Why don't we go about this a better way. Rather the us posting about the power bloat and OP builds, why don't you (and others) post all the builds that this will make good and fun and worthwhile in exchange for all the various imbalance issues it'll cause. Tell us about the exciting new multiclass builds you want to play.

 

[ACJ97F]

The point I made about armor proficiency was that a level 1 fighter gets heavy armor proficiency and is not required to take more fighter levels to keep that ability relevant.

I was replying to your post. At higher levels the extra PRR/MRR only comes from Fighter level-based feats. So it's not accurate to say you
don't need Fighter levels regarding that proficiency, for a Tank that much Sheltering is pretty relevant later on.

---------------------------------

 

[Lacci]

Rather the us posting about the power bloat and OP builds, why don't you (and others) post all the builds that this will make good and fun and worthwhile in exchange for all the various imbalance issues it'll cause. Tell us about the exciting new multiclass builds you want to play.

I asked for the same thing on page 6, still waiting ...

 

[Shear-buckler]

I was replying to your post. At higher levels the extra PRR/MRR only comes from Fighter level-based feats. So it's not accurate to say you
don't need Fighter levels regarding that proficiency, for a Tank that much Sheltering is pretty relevant later on.
---------------------------------

The point I made about armor proficiency was that a level 1 fighter gets heavy armor proficiency and is not required to take more fighter levels to keep that ability relevant. Yes, their bonuses with heavy armor will increase if they take more fighter levels, but there are many other ways to increase the bonus so that multiclasses can catch up. With spells your don't have that.

You see?

 

[Eltronin]

The point I made about armor proficiency was that a level 1 fighter gets heavy armor proficiency and is not required to take more fighter levels to keep that ability relevant. Yes, their bonuses with heavy armor will increase if they take more fighter levels, but there are many other ways to increase the bonus so that multiclasses can catch up. With spells your don't have that.

You see?

With spells you DO have that ability. At level one, your caster gets the ability to cast spells and is not required to take more caster levels to keep that ability relevant. Yes, their bonuses with casting will increase if they take more caster levels but, there are many others ways to increase the bonus so that multiclasses can catch up. Your own argument against is the exact argument against yours and has the same relevance. Gear, enhancments and feats for both Melee and Casting do the same thing right now in game.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Careful, using common sense and their own argument against them will just cause them to argue differently. It is never ending even when they contradict themselves.

Considering that I recanted and expressed gratitude for having learnt something new about the BoH tree your post becomes highly ironic. Not like that has stopped you before though...

 

[Eltronin]

Considering that I recanted and expressed gratitude for having learnt something new about the BoH tree your post becomes highly ironic. Not like that has stopped you before though...

You are the example of ironic. You say you recanted yet, make a post explaining how you don't understand what's happening. Amazing, hasn't stopped you before from continuing your pointless arguments.

 

[Shear-buckler]

You are the example of ironic. You say you recanted yet, make a post explaining how you don't understand what's happening. Amazing, hasn't stopped you before from continuing your pointless arguments.

Making angry posts filled with insults does not advance your argument.

Since the discussion has generally moved on to balance and specific examples I think it's time for you to drop your contention that it would be inconsistent or incoherent to apply this change. Imbalanced? Perhaps.

 

[Shear-buckler]

With spells you DO have that ability. At level one, your caster gets the ability to cast spells and is not required to take more caster levels to keep that ability relevant. Yes, their bonuses with casting will increase if they take more caster levels but, there are many others ways to increase the bonus so that multiclasses can catch up. Your own argument against is the exact argument against yours and has the same relevance. Gear, enhancments and feats for both Melee and Casting do the same thing right now in game.

What can a level 10 wizard / 10 fighter do to catch up with a level 20 wizard with their spells? Since it's about catching up it has to be something that is not equally beneficial for both.

The claim that spells scale differently from most abilities should not lead to tens of pages of discussion. The resulting effect on game balance is a completely different question where I am happy to agree to disagree.

 

[Eltronin]

Making angry posts filled with insults does not advance your argument.

Since the discussion has generally moved on to balance and specific examples I think it's time for you to drop your contention that it would be inconsistent or incoherent to apply this change. Imbalanced? Perhaps.

There was no angry post and no insults. It was a simple reply to your comment. If you feel that was angry and insulting, you need to go back and look at your posts/replies to people.

 

[Shear-buckler]

You are the example of ironic. You say you recanted yet, make a post explaining how you don't understand what's happening. Amazing, hasn't stopped you before from continuing your pointless arguments.

There was no angry post and no insults. It was a simple reply to your comment. If you feel that was angry and insulting, you need to go back and look at your posts/replies to people.

Okay mate.

If that's the case then I am happy to have learnt something new about BoH.

I am more than willing to sidestep the main balance concerns by making it only about arcane spells. Healing spells are already pretty good even with lower caster levels since you don't need to scale them as much as damage spells to keep them relevant.

Such anger in my posts, such hatred Man, I am one step away from turning to the dark side. ?

I dont know why this topic makes you so upset. Why cant you just agree to disagree for balance reasons like the rest of us?

 

[Eltronin]

I dont know why this topic makes you so upset. Why cant you just agree to disagree for balance reasons like the rest of us?

The topis doesn't upset me at all, and if you agreed to disagree like everyone else, why are you continuing the discussion with the post you made plus others? You haven't agreed to disagree as you keep arguing points. if you truly feel that way, then move on. Lets see how long it takes you to disagree with someone else.

 

[Shear-buckler]

The topis doesn't upset me at all, and if you agreed to disagree like everyone else, why are you continuing the discussion with the post you made plus others? You haven't agreed to disagree as you keep arguing points. if you truly feel that way, then move on. Lets see how long it takes you to disagree with someone else.

There are two lines of discussion going on here. On one hand we have claim that it would be too imbalanced, and unless your example is something that is something that is just blatantly false (mm would be too strong) I have no problem with that and am happy to agree to disagree.

On the other hand we have the claim that this change would be illogical, inconsitent and that we just don't understand it. Here we have all the embarrassing analogies with surgeons and superheroes and claims that spells works just like all other class granted abilities. A few of you are still stuck here. Here I wont agree to disagree, because you are wrong and I have explained why in great detail multiple times.

 

[Eltronin]

On the other hand we have the claim that this change would be illogical, inconsitent and that we just don't understand it. Here we have all the embarrassing analogies with surgeons and superheroes and claims that spells works just like all other class granted abilities. A few of you are still stuck here. Here I wont agree to disagree, because you are wrong and I have explained why in great detail multiple times.

And on this subject, people have presented examples and arguments and you have dismissed them. They have shown how this will be unbalanced and you keep pushing your ideals. No one is agreeing with you and if you look at the reactions, those opposing your ideals are receiving all the likes. One person agreed with a suggestion of a feat like PnP. Great people were in agreement then, you wanted more. A compromise was made and you just wanted more. You will never be happy until you get exactly what you want even if it unbalances the game because it is your idea. Very sad.

 

[Shear-buckler]

And on this subject, people have presented examples and arguments and you have dismissed them. They have shown how this will be unbalanced and you keep pushing your ideals. No one is agreeing with you and if you look at the reactions, those opposing your ideals are receiving all the likes. One person agreed with a suggestion of a feat like PnP. Great people were in agreement then, you wanted more. A compromise was made and you just wanted more. You will never be happy until you get exactly what you want even if it unbalances the game because it is your idea. Very sad.

That would be the subject of the first paragraph, not the second. Agreed?

 

[ACJ97F]

The claim that spells scale differently from most abilities should not lead to tens of pages of discussion.

That's the most accurate thing you have ever said.

Though you ruined the moment by blanket-claiming everyone else is just wrong, which is par for the entire thread.

-------------------------------------

Ok, for anyone else that's tired of the Denial-Train, there's an article online about an underwater concert in Florida.

 

[Eltronin]

That's the most accurate thing you have ever said.

Though you ruined the moment by blanket-claiming everyone else is just wrong, which is par for the entire thread.

-------------------------------------

Ok, for anyone else that's tired of the Denial-Train, there's an article online about an underwater concert in Florida.

Exactly

 

[Shear-buckler]

That's the most accurate thing you have ever said.

Though you ruined the moment by blanket-claiming everyone else is just wrong, which is par for the entire thread.

-------------------------------------

Ok, for anyone else that's tired of the Denial-Train, there's an article online about an underwater concert in Florida.

If you believe that spells do not scale differently from most other class abilites and features you are wrong.
If you believe that spells do scale differently from most other class abilites and features, but changing it would create imbalance I will agree to disagree.

 

[Cashery]

We need more snow in DDO. Let’s fix that.