Spells, attacks, heals, buffs etc. should scale with character level not class level.
- Thread starter Bazgrim
- Start date
Eltronin
Kobolds don't matter. *Except in Crystal Cove.
That would be so cool (pardon the pun). instead of mounts, we could have sleds pulled by sled dogs or even horses.
We need more snow in DDO. Let’s fix that.
Cashery
Well-known member
I like the way you think.
Cashery
Well-known member
Multi-classing is awesome. There are so many interesting builds in the game that can be made with it. There are of course drawbacks, but that is the same for pure classes also have drawbacks.
Shear-buckler
Master of reactions
I agree! There should always be drawbacks for every choice you make in character building, or it's not much of a choice to begin with.
No one is arguing for there to be no drawbacks, only for the drawbacks to be lessened so that a clearly underutilized part of the game can be brought up.
Spook
Ghostly Troll
So I guess its time to get off the fence. I agree spell scaling is problematic. I dont agree the problem is in Caster levels as the problem persists with pure builds.
The problem for me is level 9 spells are too good compared to level 1 spells. They should be better of course but not by the magnitude that they are. It basically means that a nuker is not really viable if it doesnt have good level 9 spells - see an alignment based cleric
The difference between 20 and 17/3 is going to diminish over time as we gain more legendary levels but I believe it would be better for the game if pure wasnt the only way to build a top end nuker ie trading the capstone to get more crit for example should be an interesting choice
I also dont think upsetting balance is a reason not to make a change. U51 threw balance right out of the window but most people think it was a net positive (I dont I think people like it because they become much more powerful not because the changes themselves were good)
TLDR I agree with the problem I dont agree with the solution
The problem for me is level 9 spells are too good compared to level 1 spells. They should be better of course but not by the magnitude that they are. It basically means that a nuker is not really viable if it doesnt have good level 9 spells - see an alignment based cleric
The difference between 20 and 17/3 is going to diminish over time as we gain more legendary levels but I believe it would be better for the game if pure wasnt the only way to build a top end nuker ie trading the capstone to get more crit for example should be an interesting choice
I also dont think upsetting balance is a reason not to make a change. U51 threw balance right out of the window but most people think it was a net positive (I dont I think people like it because they become much more powerful not because the changes themselves were good)
TLDR I agree with the problem I dont agree with the solution
HoopleHead
Well-known member
LOL... back to 'give em an inch and they try to take a yard'
HoopleHead
Well-known member
I'm saying you should not get more levels of casting power if you don't actually TAKE the levels to gain said power.
I AM in favor of a series of feats that do essentially what is already being done with 'Focus' to increase power within a particular School.
I think something like that would benefit not only multiclassers, but general casters as well
Feat 1 (Requires lvl 4, requires at least 2 levels of eligible profession)
- Caster's Insight - Add 1 Caster level to a specific Class (can only be taken once)
Feat 2 (Requires lvl 8, requires at least 4 levels of eligible profession, requires Caster's Insight)
- Improved Caster's Insight - Add 2 Caster levels to a specific Class (can only be taken once, same Profession as Caster's Insight)
Feat 3 (Requires lvl 12, requires at least 6 levels of eligible profession, requires Improved Caster's Insight)
- Greater Caster's Insight - Add 3 Caster levels to a specific Class (can only be taken once, same Profession as Improved Caster's Insight)
.... again, it's important to consider these 3 feats will be the cost of gaining power in the selected profession. They won't be 'auto-granted' or some kind of freebe. A price has to be payed. The only exception I could see would be them allowed as optional 'class' feats that can be taken at certain levels as many classes already allow, once you've reached a particular 'hallmark' or level requirement FOR that class/profession.
The question (and discussion) remains, can these granted caster levels be used to meet Enhancement Tree requirements? Would this allow a character with 14 Warlock levels to take the capstone for Enlightened Spirit? I'm inclined to say yes...
It's quite the can of worms....
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Natashaelle
Time Bandit
Isn't this thread dead yet ?
Enoach
Well-known member
Not yet it seems. but looks like it has come back around to maybe asking SSG to revisit the Practiced Spell Caster Feat.
Shear-buckler
Master of reactions
I get that's what you are saying. I am trying to get you to explain why think that. Is it a balance issue and getting increased caster levels for spells as a multiclass caster would be too strong?
No cap? Enabling enhancements? That's the most potentially overpowered suggestion in this thread, by far.
rabidfox
The People's Champion
Yup, still waiting for someone to post the new fun and exiciting builds that this will open up and that they want to make with this.
HoopleHead
Well-known member
What you're asking is non-sequitur .... the 'balance' issue would be utterly dependant on just HOW the increase in caster level is achieved. You keep asking , but refuse to listen to how people are telling you ways it could be achieved. What it SOUNDS like is you want that increase either free, or for such pitiance as to be virtually irrelevant
I don't have a problem with pure casters getting 6 more levels. 26 levels of caster would come at such a cost as to make the loss of other feats that could have been taken in their stead a warranted and fair trade. I think your sudden 'that's OP' is self serving in that you don't like the idea of it costing 3 desperately needed feats to achieve
Shear-buckler
Master of reactions
Alright, let me clarify.
Is it a balance issue and getting increased caster levels for spells as a multiclass caster for free or for a single feat would be too strong?
Well you would be wrong. I am not saying it is a bad idea, I am just saying that it's the most potentially overpowered suggestion in this thread. Far more risk of breaking the game than a practiced spellcaster feat that goes up to 10.
One thing I don't like is the progressing effectiveness of the feats. They should be 2/2/2, not 1/2/3.
Shear-buckler
Master of reactions
Well I think the builds you have suggested would be fun and exciting.
rabidfox
The People's Champion
So the power bloated and OP stuff... gotcha.
This entire thread was premised on
so expecting people to actually say some original new builds that this would open up should be expected.
HoopleHead
Well-known member
Again, you refuse to say HOW MANY caster levels for that single Feat? Obviously 'free' is unacceptable, it's too much to ask for. I've offered a stacking tiered approach... 1 for the 1st, 2 for the 2nd, and 3 for the 3rd, successively greater rewards for having dedicated your feat expenditure to the line of feats. You're not going to get 4 class levels for a single feat and no other cost.. and if you want 6 levels, it's going to require dedicated focus into the required line. You didn't pay for the levels by taking the actual LEVELS, so you're going to have to pay dearly for them in some other way. It makes sense that it cost even MORE then if you were to simply take the class levels themselves. You want 6 levels of caster... it's going to cost you 3 feats
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HoopleHead
Well-known member
I would go 14 Lock 6 Paly in a heartbeat if the feats I described were a thing
Neain
Well-known member
well, how about an attempt at a mystic theurge? you go 6 sorc, 6 fsv, and the rest either sorc or fsv. it wouldnt be op because your not getting the best stuff from either tree (except for maybe thoes T5s from fsv, that seems to be an outlier, so lets assume you go to T5 in a dps tree instead). its not gonna perform that amazing even in heroics, but I bet you could get to 20 with few issues. Maybe its just another way to get a past life, but it would be at least a little amusing to see.
Shear-buckler
Master of reactions
That you have missed it does not mean I refuse...
I have said it many times. 10, but not make the caster level higher than 20 or current character level.
No that is not obvious. Why is it unacceptable? It's a serious question.
Why are you insiting that you should have to pay dearly for them? Most class abilities do not require additonal class levels to scale.
Your suggestion is not a good design. A multiclass caster would already be feat-starved if they try go go for casting and some sort of martial approach, and they already "pay dearly" by not accessing higher level spells which are by design much stronger. Something like a 10 wizard/10 fighter is the class that needs this the most and also what your suggestion punishes most.
Just to reiterate, high caster-level low spell-level spells would not be OP, low-level spells are weak compared to high level spells. The price of multi-classing is the opportunity cost of taking other class levels. Expecting the class abilities that you are granted from class levels to scale with factors outside of class levels is not unreasonable, most class abilities and features works like that. It is not a concept that has an inherent need for an extra cost.
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It's amazing the number of people that come into this thread with a huge chip on their shoulder hurling insults and being incredibly hostile at a simple suggestion. If you disagree with the suggestion then you should simply state your position and your reasons why. Really, how hard is it to engage in a civil discussion/debate? Not only has the idea of this suggestion been attacked, but so has anyone who dares to agree with it. Some of you need to touch grass.
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