You are saying a rogue sneak attack doesn't scale with class when in fact it does. As the rogue goes up in level (Rogue levels), he receives more sneak attack dice. Their sneak attack is not based off of character level.
You use evasion in your arguments. Evasion does not scale with class or character levels so is irrelevant to this discussion.
You mention that BAB is not a granted ability that scales with class level...you are absolutely wrong. BAB is granted to ALL classes and does scale with Class level.
So using your own argument: If I wanted to do 19wiz/1fighter, then my level 1 fighters abilities to stay usefull at higher levels would need to have the BAB of a level 20 Fighter. That makes no sense and so does your argument for a level 1 wizard to be able to cast as a level 20 wizard regardless if they are low level spells.
YES BAB is the same as caster level. BAB is granted at level up in your class just like Caster level is granted at class levels. THE SAME THING.A rogue gains sneak attack at certain levels just like a fighter gains feats at certain levels. That is not the same thing as spells granted at a certain level scaling with class levels.
It's not irrelevant. It's an example of it being perfectly reasonable to gain a class ability that does not require future commitment to said class. It refutes the argument "you should not be as good at <class ability> if you have fewer levels in the class".
BAB is not the same as caster level. BAB is granted at level up, just like fighter bonus feats.
No that is not analogous to my argument at all. My argument is that the caster level system for spells is as if you took 1 level of fighter and grabbed cleave as a feat, then the effectiveness of the cleave was directly tied to your fighter levels making it completely useless if you did not continue as a mostly pure fighter. I highly doubt you would like that system, so why are you defending it's equivalent?
My argument for why a 1 wizard/19x to be able to cast level 1 spells as a 20 wizard is equivalent to why a 10 rogue/10 x should be able to evade as a 20 rogue. Repeating "evasion doesn't scale" does not refute this argument.
Well, you want to change the fundamental rules of the games, so it´s your job to provide a good reason for that.
All you did so far was to say that it would open up better caster multiclass options, but didn´t give any examples either.
I won´t go through all of the hundreds of spells to find an example you might accept. I already gave several examples.
Yes, it does, 20 fighter levels give you +20 BAB while 20 wizard levels only give you +10
Yes it does, 20 Rogue levels give 10d6 sneack attack dice, while wizard levels give you none.
So, 20 wizard levels give you 20 caster levels, while 20 fighter levels give you none.
Why should a lvl 1 wizard/lvl 19 fighter be able to cast a magic missile like a lvl 20 wizard when a lvl 1 fighter/lvl 19 wizard doesn´t get the same BAB as a lvl 20 fighter ? Or a lvl 1 rogue/lvl 19 wizard doesn´t get his 10d6 sneak attack dice ?
I get it, those abilities don´t scale in the same way as spells, but they still scale with class level.
So why do you feel the need to boost low level spells if they are negligable ?
Do you feel like spells in the game are currently too weak ?
Because I feel like spells in general are much stronger than melee/ranged attacks and caster levels (and SP costs) are there to balance them.
Not really when you already get +6 free caster levels from epic/legendary levels, and can slot +2 arcane caster levels, and already get a max CL 9 MM with 1 lvl of wiz, yet no one does.High caster level magic missile is an outstanding ability because it racks up stacks of buffs/debuffs very quickly. The only spell or attack that works faster that I can think of is Past Life Arcane Initiate (Wizard) feat. Past life Arcane Initiate has a limited number of casts. Magic missile does not.
A close-to-free CL 20+ magic missile is absolutely major source of power even though it isn’t directly from the DPS of the spell itself. The additional missiles you get from the free 19 extra caster levels is a huge deal.
Even just a legendary affirmation stick alone would make it worthwhile.
YES BAB is the same as caster level. BAB is granted at level up in your class just like Caster level is granted at class levels. THE SAME THING.
Evasion is irrelevant. it does not scale. Just like Wizard being able to wield a dagger. The skill does not scale by class or character level, you just know how to use one.
And yes, sneak attack using your argument scales with class level. You do not get more sneak attack dice unless you level in rogue. You do not get more spell power unless you level in Wizard.
You are not grasping the concept that multi classing will not give you equal power among the class you take to a pure class.
Ok one last time maybe you will get it. If not, you are showing your ignorance and inability to listen to others who are proving you wrong so many times.Because lvl 1 fighter/lvl 19 wizard would get full use of every ability that was granted at the level 1 fighter. Nothing that you get at level 1 fighter scale with class level. A level 1 rogue/lvl 19 wizard would get full use of every ability that was granted at level 1 rogue. Nothing you get at level 1 rogue scale with class level.
But that´s how it is. If you take 1 level of fighter and 19 levels of Wizard, your BAB will be limited to 10, meaning your cleave doesn´t hit as often and it locks you out of greater x-weapon fighting feats, so your cleave will be weaker than that of a pure lvl 20 fighter.No it's not the same thing. BAB is not a scalar for class ablities. Since you ignored what I said I will repeat it:
My argument is that the caster level system for spells is as if you took 1 level of fighter and grabbed cleave as a feat, then the effectiveness of the cleave was directly tied to your fighter levels making it completely useless if you did not continue as a mostly pure fighter. I highly doubt you would like that system, so why are you defending it's equivalent?
I gave zero examples that would agree with your idea of imbalance, yes.I am happy to provide examples when continuos fundamental misunderstandings and misrepresentations are weeded out.
You gave me zero examples of where this would be imbalanced.
Ok one last time maybe you will get it. If not, you are showing your ignorance and inability to listen to others who are proving you wrong so many times.
Nothing you get at level 1 rogue scale with class level....YES, SNEAK ATTACK SCALES WITH ROGUE LEVEL. go look to rogue in the Wiki or compendium and you will see that as you level with rogue, your sneak attack improves. It is right there in print telling you how wrong you are.
Stop with the Evasion argument. IT IS A REFLEX SAVE THAT YOU MUST MAKE. Go read what evasion is and stop using it in your argument as it has nothing to do with class levels. And when you do read it, you will see that ANYONE can get evasion. There are many ways to get it so even a 1 Wizard can evade.
But that´s how it is. If you take 1 level of fighter and 19 levels of Wizard, your BAB will be limited to 10, meaning your cleave doesn´t hit as often and it locks you out of greater x-weapon fighting feats, so your cleave will be weaker than that of a pure lvl 20 fighter.
BAB is as important to melee classes as caster level is for spellcasters.
I gave zero examples that would agree with your idea of imbalance, yes.
I know you don't see it, but your post is highly ironic. I am following the facts to the letter, and understand the game very well.Thank you, yet again you have proven your inability to follow facts and understand the game. It amazes me how someone could be shown by so many different people how they are wrong and keep arguing they are right. Have a wonderful time, no longer going to debate with someone who fails to accept when they are wrong. Good day.
Caster level and class level are exactly the same.
The BAB of a fighter´s cleave is the same as the DC of a wizards spell.
Using Evasion as an example would be the same as using the "Summon Monster" or "Masters Touch" spell as an example (where evasion still indirectly scales with class level because of different saves per class)
I wonder if some of the posters in this thread have ever played a. a pen and paper rpg, or b. actually dnd (x->3.5).
This game actually works pretty well with not TOO much hacking at the source material, clearly integrating the fundamentals of both pnp rpgs as a whole and 3.5 and earlier intact.
Without this foundational knowledge that some posters seem to be missing, I do not think it will be possible to move the needle here.
No, I'm saying Evasion doesn't scale with level because Evasion is not scale-able.You are answering the question "why doesn't evasion scale with level?" with "because evasion doesnt scale with level". That means you are fundamentally missing the point.
I completely agree that a pure wizard, should and do get higher DCs. That makes sense and is consistent with the rest of the game.
What sticks out and is the topic of this thread however is caster levels. They are uniquely tied to class levels, almost nothing else is. Spells scaling with class levels is like if evasion would scale with class levels and only allowed you to evade targets or traps equal to your evasion-class level. Why is that a better system?
DDO is NOT D&D.Well said. PnP solves this issue with the practiced spellcaster feat, which is missing in DDO. This has been brought up a couple of times but is consistently ignored.
Ok...You become a rogue. You learn how to sneak attack. As you take more levels in ROGUE, you learn how to sneak attack better. If you don't take any more levels in ROGUE, you don't get any better at it.I know you don't see it, but your post is highly ironic. I am following the facts to the letter, and understand the game very well.
For me to be shown wrong on this would require someone showing how this change would be bad for the game, either by creating imbalance or unwarranted inconsitency. No one has even been close to doing this. The best you could do was to bog down the discussion in wether or not BAB or sneak attack are abilities that scale with class levels, and that's completely irrelevant. There is a perfect example for an ability that scales with class level, divine grace.
Caster levels do and SHOULD only scale with levels in the class of whatever spell.
'I learned a spell so every level I advance should make it more powerful even if every level since then was about learning how to use martial weapons'... This makes no sense.
DDO is NOT D&D.
Ok...You become a rogue. You learn how to sneak attack. As you take more levels in ROGUE, you learn how to sneak attack better. If you don't take any more levels in ROGUE, you don't get any better at it.
It's like saying someone who started out as an apprentice electician will get better at it when they switch to an apprentice plumber and then continue on the 'Class' and become a master plumber...They are still an apprentice electrician.
Your whole supposition holds no weight.