Stealth play post u73.1 is terrible

[Bliv]

I stopped playing assassin rogue when it was lag-season every day on Orien.
Not being able to time assassinate and go into sneak at key times was driving me crazy.

Assassin rogue is all about skill and timing. And the lag was killing it.

Guess I won't be returning to it anytime soon after reading your post.

(So freaking sad the state of the game right now.)

 

[The Narc2]

Other stealth games you play the game and then you're done. DDO you build your character and keep them and play them forever.

I've always felt that there was a market for DDO stealth play that is unrealized due to the fact that players who like stealth will likely not be satisfied by the limitations that DDO has progressively added to the play style.

Most of the changes to stealth were done because invisibility was a quicker way to run an instance and level quickly. However true stealth players tend to do the opposite, running slower than the average bear and actually having fun while they did that. We're flower sniffers for the most part and the changes in stealth play have been an ongoing rude awakening as our favorite play style takes hits over and over again.

Agreed that invisibility is the core issue as to why stealth is being muddled with again and again, and for your reasons listed above about speed running quests.

The game has many of its abilities and traits changed over the years in regards to how fast quests can be run, obviously ssg has a goal to make quest completion as lengthy as they possible can.

Some will say its about xp or loot running, although those are definitely factors, i definitely think the biggest factor is to slow players down from gaining favor as favor converts into ddo points and the faster you can earn ddo points the less likely you are to spend any money on the game as ddo points will buy you everything you need in the game.

 

[rs125racer]

I was playing my rogue assassin today (unaware of the changes) and couldn't figure out why I was having so much trouble regaining stealth and losing mobs. They were coming straight to me while I was stealthed, even if I had moved to a different location. Now I know and this sucks :(

 

[Zavina]

Just realized that the initial stealth fix could have been so simple: invisibility slows you to a walk. End of invisi-running and all the other changes were not necessary.

The thing which always annoyed me that people didn't get was that invisibility did not come with inaudibility. People cast invis then took off running, that left trash aggroed and dungeon alerts rising. That was the trash reacting to the noise created by the audible sounds.

I stopped playing assassin rogue when it was lag-season every day on Orien.
Not being able to time assassinate and go into sneak at key times was driving me crazy.

Assassin rogue is all about skill and timing. And the lag was killing it.

Guess I won't be returning to it anytime soon after reading your post.

(So freaking sad the state of the game right now.)

The state of play for being a stealth player is appalling after this recent hit. It's like the trash has taken a page out of the carnage reaper's book of "how to follow stealth players like a guided missile". The entire idea of a stealth player, is being able to evade and re-engage.

I did a full character rebuild two weeks ago, and went down a different path. Still kept the stealth/assassin option to one side, and it was extremely disappointing that the direction of the assassin has been redesigned to go down this route to no fault of the players, who love the class & concept.

Other stealth games you play the game and then you're done. DDO you build your character and keep them and play them forever.

I've always felt that there was a market for DDO stealth play that is unrealized due to the fact that players who like stealth will likely not be satisfied by the limitations that DDO has progressively added to the play style.

Most of the changes to stealth were done because invisibility was a quicker way to run an instance and level quickly. However true stealth players tend to do the opposite, running slower than the average bear and actually having fun while they did that. We're flower sniffers for the most part and the changes in stealth play have been an ongoing rude awakening as our favorite play style takes hits over and over again.

lol, i'm not a flower sniffer in the slightest, and most of the time, I have been ahead of the party. That might be your predilection at being a flower sniffer, but it doesn't count for everyone's. Doing the proverbial murder the nearest guard, or slot a creature that can impact the party's way.

Though it can be a lot of fun, sneaking up and popping a door where the Paladin in the party then screams at you and curses, running away with trash behind him... (sighs fondly with the memory). I always keep up with the party, and often sent to pick up those who have lost their way in raids and quests.

 

[Br4d]

The thing which always annoyed me that people didn't get was that invisibility did not come with inaudibility. People cast invis then took off running, that left trash aggroed and dungeon alerts rising. That was the trash reacting to the noise created by the audible sounds.




The state of play for being a stealth player is appalling after this recent hit. It's like the trash has taken a page out of the carnage reaper's book of "how to follow stealth players like a guided missile". The entire idea of a stealth player, is being able to evade and re-engage.

I did a full character rebuild two weeks ago, and went down a different path. Still kept the stealth/assassin option to one side, and it was extremely disappointing that the direction of the assassin has been redesigned to go down this route to no fault of the players, who love the class & concept.


lol, i'm not a flower sniffer in the slightest, and most of the time, I have been ahead of the party. That might be your predilection at being a flower sniffer, but it doesn't count for everyone's. Doing the proverbial murder the nearest guard, or slot a creature that can impact the party's way.

Though it can be a lot of fun, sneaking up and popping a door where the Paladin in the party then screams at you and curses, running away with trash behind him... (sighs fondly with the memory). I always keep up with the party, and often sent to pick up those who have lost their way in raids and quests.

100% to the bolded.

Also, I solo as I think a fair number of stealthers do and DDO is much better at a reasonable speed solo. It's like a game instead of a rat race.

When stealth started to go sideways I stopped playing my hybrid melee with stealth and went to a Warlock because fast became the most important thing.

Recently on Cormyr I've just been playing a Pale Trapper at normal speeds and I've been looking for the impossible finds as I sniff flowers. I probably run Spies in the House three times a week and I spend a little time on every run trying to find those extra breakables. I'll never find them but I have gained a great appreciation for how well Spies in the House was constructed, as well as finding a few hidden spots that are very hard to get too.

 

[The Narc2]

100% to the bolded.

Also, I solo as I think a fair number of stealthers do and DDO is much better at a reasonable speed solo. It's like a game instead of a rat race.

When stealth started to go sideways I stopped playing my hybrid melee with stealth and went to a Warlock because fast became the most important thing.

Recently on Cormyr I've just been playing a Pale Trapper at normal speeds and I've been looking for the impossible finds as I sniff flowers. I probably run Spies in the House three times a week and I spend a little time on every run trying to find those extra breakables. I'll never find them but I have gained a great appreciation for how well Spies in the House was constructed, as well as finding a few hidden spots that are very hard to get too.

Did you get ransack in Spies because i only ever get to vandal??

 

[Br4d]

Did you get ransack in Spies because i only ever get to vandal??

You can't get Ransack and I've basically turned the instance upside down searching for the extra breakables. I've taken to shooting at all the pipes with Sonic Blast and have not found a breakable one yet.

There are a few places that a gnome can get through into uncharted territory and none have produced breakables yet.

There is an easily accessible ledge on the top level that I recall having 2 or 3 breakables back in the day but they are gone now.

 

[Blerkington]

Solo play using stealth was a really enjoyable part of the game and one of the main reasons I'm still around after all of these years, despite there being quite a few other things about the game I'm not terribly happy about. But unfortunately it's also the solo part of stealth play where problems are the most noticeable and where things are sometimes left half-done, as if semi-broken parts are deemed to be good enough.

There's some information in the release notes and the pathing performance change for blind behaviour that suggests there may be some more fine tuning coming up for this model. I really hope this is true and that it comes at a sensible speed rather than what I'm expecting, which is hey let's break things now and then maybe get back to them in the distant future.

J1NG's testing of how to lose aggro mentions use of invisibility and dimension door. While I agree that these things should have a role in shedding aggro, I am very strongly against the idea that we should have to use them to lose aggro when chased. Ddoor is not a class feature for rogues and rangers, and short of being a deep multiclass build or being human and taking the dragonmark or using very rare scrolls, it is only available in epics through EDs. Not having this option would really mess things up for people who mainly or solely play in heroics.

It would be an extremely stupid outcome of the new system if we have to use magic spells to shed aggro. The new system has to have a way for us to shed aggro when being pursued that only involves the use of sneaking. But unfortunately that is not what we have now, and there seems to be little to suggest that we are definitely going to get that back.

Thanks for all of your comments everyone. Very glad to see this thread didn't die straight away as I was expecting.

 

[Jasparius]

Stealth used to be alot of fun. But players are simple-minded these days so there's no need to cater to us few strategic stealth players; let's just blow everything up and get XP.

The devs caused this by putting large packs of mobs in front of every door and keeping every door locked until every mob next to the door is dead.

To stop people sneaking past content they spent time designing and building (yes its all about their ego) they create ludicrous scenarios when you move from pack to pack blowing them up. Its cheap and lazy game design.

And all this to stop people needing to make dedicated builds and gear to take extra time to complete the dungeon.

 

[Tyran Thraxus]

Yup. I think the Invisibility spell should trigger "walking mode". That would solve zerging, lag, and dungeon alerts.

Bring back stealth!

 

[woq]

Yup. I think the Invisibility spell should trigger "walking mode". That would solve zerging, lag, and dungeon alerts.

Bring back stealth!

How does invisibility triggering walking mode make any sense? That's just another bad bandaid fix. You can want to be invisible while wanting to run, it's not to be sneaky it's to be invisible.

That's a terrible fix.

 

[J1NG]

The "walk" also doesn't do anything noticeably different from normal movement speed. Meaning you get detected (be echo location from hearing) at the same distance in either case (walking or running/normal speed), so all that does is cause unnecessary issues.

J1NG

 

[Haphazard]

Noticed this as well but was hoping it was just because I was doing it on a test toon with mediocre stealth skills. It actually feels like, once triggered, being hidden/stealthy is effectively void - it's a binary state.

These changes were ostensibly performance related right (like so many)?

Hap

 

[Br4d]

The "walk" also doesn't do anything noticeably different from normal movement speed. Meaning you get detected (be echo location from hearing) at the same distance in either case (walking or running/normal speed), so all that does is cause unnecessary issues.

J1NG

I'd be fine if invisibility gave inaudibility also at walking speed.

 

[Haphazard]

The devs caused this by putting large packs of mobs in front of every door and keeping every door locked until every mob next to the door is dead.

To stop people sneaking past content they spent time designing and building (yes its all about their ego) they create ludicrous scenarios when you move from pack to pack blowing them up. Its cheap and lazy game design.

And all this to stop people needing to make dedicated builds and gear to take extra time to complete the dungeon.

It does feel like they're worried somehow it will bypass content but anyone that actually plays a stealth build understands that the play style will never compete with zerging/overpowering for speed.

It's a whole play style in its own right that's incredibly satisfying for those that want it and doesn't get in the way of the games 'main' design. It also used to be good from a social point of view with videos and community apropos. Who cares if you can run through content with a DPS toon (or, let's face it, anything these days). Stealthing through Claw or Repossession on Elite used to be something to be proud of. I mean does anyone even remember Mr Cow or Ghoste any more?

Hap

 

[Jasparius]

It does feel like they're worried somehow it will bypass content but anyone that actually plays a stealth build understands that the play style will never compete with zerging/overpowering for speed.

It's a whole play style in its own right that's incredibly satisfying for those that want it and doesn't get in the way of the games 'main' design. It also used to be good from a social point of view with videos and community apropos. Who cares if you can run through content with a DPS toon (or, let's face it, anything these days). Stealthing through Claw or Repossession on Elite used to be something to be proud of. I mean does anyone even remember Mr Cow or Ghoste any more?

Hap

Mr Cow was great. He would play any build as long as it was Warforged

 

[The Narc2]

Solo play using stealth was a really enjoyable part of the game and one of the main reasons I'm still around after all of these years, despite there being quite a few other things about the game I'm not terribly happy about. But unfortunately it's also the solo part of stealth play where problems are the most noticeable and where things are sometimes left half-done, as if semi-broken parts are deemed to be good enough.

There's some information in the release notes and the pathing performance change for blind behaviour that suggests there may be some more fine tuning coming up for this model. I really hope this is true and that it comes at a sensible speed rather than what I'm expecting, which is hey let's break things now and then maybe get back to them in the distant future.

J1NG's testing of how to lose aggro mentions use of invisibility and dimension door. While I agree that these things should have a role in shedding aggro, I am very strongly against the idea that we should have to use them to lose aggro when chased. Ddoor is not a class feature for rogues and rangers, and short of being a deep multiclass build or being human and taking the dragonmark or using very rare scrolls, it is only available in epics through EDs. Not having this option would really mess things up for people who mainly or solely play in heroics.

It would be an extremely stupid outcome of the new system if we have to use magic spells to shed aggro. The new system has to have a way for us to shed aggro when being pursued that only involves the use of sneaking. But unfortunately that is not what we have now, and there seems to be little to suggest that we are definitely going to get that back.

Thanks for all of your comments everyone. Very glad to see this thread didn't die straight away as I was expecting.

Honestly, I am surprised they havent just broken invisibility and dimension door flat out. They have broken so many things to try and slow down my trapper wizard build, i find it flattering that I am so important to them and in their head so constantly, living rent free.

The thing i have said to my friends is that the more they do to try and slow me down the more they hurt their whole clientele, basically shooting themselves in the foot. Where as our groups are happier because the game just gets more challenging for our playstyle. Again our group is flattered by their hard work.

 

[Jasparius]

Honestly, I am surprised they havent just broken invisibility and dimension door flat out. They have broken so many things to try and slow down my trapper wizard build, i find it flattering that I am so important to them and in their head so constantly, living rent free.

The thing i have said to my friends is that the more they do to try and slow me down the more they hurt their whole clientele, basically shooting themselves in the foot. Where as our groups are happier because the game just gets more challenging for our playstyle. Again our group is flattered by their hard work.

Pandering to the "gimme everything now" crowd who want to explode everything instantly.

Possibly because that is how the devs play.

 

[The Narc2]

Pandering to the "gimme everything now" crowd who want to explode everything instantly.

Possibly because that is how the devs play.

Have you seen one play, its laughable, its like watching a strimtom build in slow motion, its bad to begin with and then just gets even worse with the player.

 

[rabidfox]

The "walk" also doesn't do anything noticeably different from normal movement speed. Meaning you get detected (be echo location from hearing) at the same distance in either case (walking or running/normal speed), so all that does is cause unnecessary issues.

J1NG

^ 100% this.

Just realized that the initial stealth fix could have been so simple: invisibility slows you to a walk. End of invisi-running and all the other changes were not necessary.

That wouldn't have fixed the bug that the new code stopped. The fix was for invis & blind mob behavior; so it was more than just invis & stealth gameplay that triggered it. While the new code probably needs refinement & tweaks to make the stealth crowd happy, it fixed a pretty wicked issue.