Suggestion: Add Sonic, Force and Light (Radiant) Bloodlines to Draconic Incarnation

[Chacka]

Right now, Draconic Incarnation covers the "classic" dragon elements – fire, electric, cold, acid and so on – based on the chromatic and metallic dragons. I'd love to see three more bloodlines added for Sonic, Force and Light (Radiant) damage.

There is a solid D&D lore basis for all three, thanks to the Gem Dragons:

• Force – the Amethyst Dragon, whose breath deals force damage across multiple editions
• Sonic – the Sapphire Dragon (thunder/sonic), with the Emerald Dragon as another classic sonic option in older editions
• Light/Radiant – the Crystal Dragon, whose breath deals radiant damage in 5e

So these wouldn't be just "homebrew" – they're established dragon types that fit the destiny's theme perfectly, while adding a more exotic, psionic flavor alongside the traditional chromatic and metallic bloodlines.


I already know the likely counter-argument: "those elements are covered by other destinies." But when you actually look at how the spell power is distributed, that argument doesn't really hold up:

• Sonic is supported by Fatesinger
• Force effectively only shows up in Shiradi Champion
• Light is in Exalted Angel and Shiradi

Meanwhile, Fire is supported by several destinies (Exalted Angel, Draconic, and others), and Light appears in more than one as well. So the principle that a damage type can be supported by multiple destinies is already established in the game. If Fire gets to appear in several trees, there's no consistent reason why Sonic, Force and Light shouldn't also be available through Draconic Incarnation.

This would give casters using these three elements more build freedom instead of being locked into a single destiny – and thematically, it just makes sense for a dragon-based destiny to eventually cover the full range of dragon types, not only the most famous ones.

 

[rabidfox]

Better support for certain elements like force/etc. would be nice. Putting them in draconic would be my idea of meh; it'd just be more (g)ruin and draconic mantle builds rocking those elements. It already feels like a cookie cutter tree; if it covered all elements it'd be a one-size fits all tree. Maybe I'm just tired of the caster meta being either t5 draconic for (g)ruin builds or for non-(g)ruin builds going t5 magus for timestop; other trees feel lacking on the t5 end.

 

[Contessor]

Right now, Draconic Incarnation covers the "classic" dragon elements – fire, electric, cold, acid and so on – based on the chromatic and metallic dragons. I'd love to see three more bloodlines added for Sonic, Force and Light (Radiant) damage.

There is a solid D&D lore basis for all three, thanks to the Gem Dragons:

• Force – the Amethyst Dragon, whose breath deals force damage across multiple editions
• Sonic – the Sapphire Dragon (thunder/sonic), with the Emerald Dragon as another classic sonic option in older editions
• Light/Radiant – the Crystal Dragon, whose breath deals radiant damage in 5e

So these wouldn't be just "homebrew" – they're established dragon types that fit the destiny's theme perfectly, while adding a more exotic, psionic flavor alongside the traditional chromatic and metallic bloodlines.


I already know the likely counter-argument: "those elements are covered by other destinies." But when you actually look at how the spell power is distributed, that argument doesn't really hold up:

• Sonic is supported by Fatesinger
• Force effectively only shows up in Shiradi Champion
• Light is in Exalted Angel and Shiradi

Meanwhile, Fire is supported by several destinies (Exalted Angel, Draconic, and others), and Light appears in more than one as well. So the principle that a damage type can be supported by multiple destinies is already established in the game. If Fire gets to appear in several trees, there's no consistent reason why Sonic, Force and Light shouldn't also be available through Draconic Incarnation.

This would give casters using these three elements more build freedom instead of being locked into a single destiny – and thematically, it just makes sense for a dragon-based destiny to eventually cover the full range of dragon types, not only the most famous ones.

Not going to agree with force. They should include Sonic with Electric and Negative/Poison with Acid. Another Bloodline with Light and Aligment should not be a bad addition. It kind of goes with a Gold Dragon Heritage.

 

[Chacka]

Not going to agree with force. They should include Sonic with Electric and Negative/Poison with Acid. Another Bloodline with Light and Aligment should not be a bad addition. It kind of goes with a Gold Dragon Heritage.

My feeling was also that gold dragons do light damage, but actually in the D&D lore they just do fire damage – it's the Crystal gem dragon that does light damage. Same for sonic damage: I thought there might be some kind of Fey Dragon, but it's actually the Sapphire gem dragon that does sonic damage. For force I had no idea, but it turns out there's the Amethyst dragon, which does force damage.

 

[Ignition]

force should be added to magus of the eclipse and they should get a force epic strike instead of making a dragon for it

 

[ShanachieWolf]

I love gem dragons, so adding the other elements and gem dragons will always be a good idea to me. If it's access to force element people care about, just do both, add gem dragons to dragon disciple and some force support to Magus.

 

[Lotoc]

If anything Magus should be supporting Radiant (evil) and force and shadowdancer should be supporting Evil damage too.

 

[norriskwondo]

Right now, Draconic Incarnation covers the "classic" dragon elements – fire, electric, cold, acid and so on – based on the chromatic and metallic dragons. I'd love to see three more bloodlines added for Sonic, Force and Light (Radiant) damage.

There is a solid D&D lore basis for all three, thanks to the Gem Dragons:

• Force – the Amethyst Dragon, whose breath deals force damage across multiple editions
• Sonic – the Sapphire Dragon (thunder/sonic), with the Emerald Dragon as another classic sonic option in older editions
• Light/Radiant – the Crystal Dragon, whose breath deals radiant damage in 5e

So these wouldn't be just "homebrew" – they're established dragon types that fit the destiny's theme perfectly, while adding a more exotic, psionic flavor alongside the traditional chromatic and metallic bloodlines.


I already know the likely counter-argument: "those elements are covered by other destinies." But when you actually look at how the spell power is distributed, that argument doesn't really hold up:

• Sonic is supported by Fatesinger
• Force effectively only shows up in Shiradi Champion
• Light is in Exalted Angel and Shiradi

Meanwhile, Fire is supported by several destinies (Exalted Angel, Draconic, and others), and Light appears in more than one as well. So the principle that a damage type can be supported by multiple destinies is already established in the game. If Fire gets to appear in several trees, there's no consistent reason why Sonic, Force and Light shouldn't also be available through Draconic Incarnation.

This would give casters using these three elements more build freedom instead of being locked into a single destiny – and thematically, it just makes sense for a dragon-based destiny to eventually cover the full range of dragon types, not only the most famous ones.

It would be a stretch, I could see adding sonic to draconic tree as in they roar, but for the others, I've never seen any lore on a dragon breathing light or divine energy out of their mouth.
Although, I've seen politicians and lawyers spew a lot of things out of their ass (mouth) that wasn't natural or right, so maybe you're on to something. LOL

 

[pinstripedbarbarian]

The amount of builds I make that include 11 in Primal Avatar purely because it can give most spell powers is... nearly all of them that use spellpower. It having three sets of them does help round out spellpowers at least. I do like the idea of spreading out different types of spellpowers to more trees as a way to support casters using a wider variety of EDs.

Force seems fine where it is imo. A bunch of cores give it, and between PA, Shadowdancer, and Shiradi there's a healthy amount of support. If the goal is adding more spell-type support in the trees themselves, I think it would be more productive to increase its presence in those three, or in a tree that already has it like Magus, rather than making yet another tree give force power.

Making Blue DI give Sonic with Electricity would be a nice qol change. Electric+Sonic stuff is nice in general since they tend to go together a lot anyway, and considering they use different skills for base power and those skills also use different stats, they already have a built in limitation. Just make the breath weapon multi-selector also have a sonic option and you're set.

Personally I think it's weird Shiradi doesn't give already Sonic. Fey-themed stuff has plenty of illusion, enchantment, music, and trickery, yet very little for Bard to enjoy there. The raid of the Feywild pack is a glorified rap battle / battle of the bards, but the Fey ED? Nothing Sonic except Stay Loud, not even Sonic power from the core. Really, all the "Stay X" spellpowers seem like good fits; Light (instead of Chaos), Force, Sonic, and Poison - even if it's just in the cores - would round out a lot of spell types and even (almost) matches the Feywild Dreamer set.

I feel like Crusader and/or Grandmaster could carry Light and Positive (and Negative for GMoF maybe) at least in the cores. I dunno, GMoF always felt like the most niche to me, and DC isn't too far behind it, so making it have something to offer to a wider array of builds would be helpful. There's plenty of thematic and mechanical reason for life/alignment stuff to be in the paladin-themed ED, and monk has enough life/death/light/dark/alignment to qualify too.

Magus and Shadowdancer could both be good sources of Poison stuff. Alignment could also work, but Light doesn't really fit either one thematically. Magus already having Negative+undead abilities would at least line up with Poison as per Nullification.

Shadowdancer currently only has Force or melee/ranged, but considering Shiradi is so focused on ranged while using multiple spellpowers types, I could see adding Poison pretty painlessly. Let the Force-based powers work off the higher of Force and Poison, whatever gives Force power also gives Poison, make Assassinate DC stuff also have Poison DCs, let sneak attack vulnerability also let poisons work on stuff like certain rogue or alchemist enhancement... All perfectly in line with shadowy ninja stuff.

 

[Quartis]

Force dragon, no. that would mean twice force spell power in (g)ruin and that would be much better than all other options cause only need to equip 1 dmg type then.
Sonic&Light okay. But I would prefere when they give Exalted_Angel more damage then making a Light dragon.

The epic destines werent probably updated to included this new spell dmg types: Chaos, Evil
A force single target epic strike is missing

Crusader should give positive spell power because the epic strike scales with it.

 

[kmoustakas]

Right now, Draconic Incarnation covers the "classic" dragon elements – fire, electric, cold, acid and so on – based on the chromatic and metallic dragons. I'd love to see three more bloodlines added for Sonic, Force and Light (Radiant) damage.

There is a solid D&D lore basis for all three, thanks to the Gem Dragons:

• Force – the Amethyst Dragon, whose breath deals force damage across multiple editions
• Sonic – the Sapphire Dragon (thunder/sonic), with the Emerald Dragon as another classic sonic option in older editions
• Light/Radiant – the Crystal Dragon, whose breath deals radiant damage in 5e

So these wouldn't be just "homebrew" – they're established dragon types that fit the destiny's theme perfectly, while adding a more exotic, psionic flavor alongside the traditional chromatic and metallic bloodlines.


I already know the likely counter-argument: "those elements are covered by other destinies." But when you actually look at how the spell power is distributed, that argument doesn't really hold up:

• Sonic is supported by Fatesinger
• Force effectively only shows up in Shiradi Champion
• Light is in Exalted Angel and Shiradi

Meanwhile, Fire is supported by several destinies (Exalted Angel, Draconic, and others), and Light appears in more than one as well. So the principle that a damage type can be supported by multiple destinies is already established in the game. If Fire gets to appear in several trees, there's no consistent reason why Sonic, Force and Light shouldn't also be available through Draconic Incarnation.

This would give casters using these three elements more build freedom instead of being locked into a single destiny – and thematically, it just makes sense for a dragon-based destiny to eventually cover the full range of dragon types, not only the most famous ones.

My amethyst dragonborn bladesinger approves of this

 

[voenixa121]

Force dragon, no. that would mean twice force spell power in (g)ruin and that would be much better than all other options cause only need to equip 1 dmg type then.
Sonic&Light okay. But I would prefere when they give Exalted_Angel more damage then making a Light dragon.

The epic destines werent probably updated to included this new spell dmg types: Chaos, Evil
A force single target epic strike is missing

Crusader should give positive spell power because the epic strike scales with it.

Not just force, all of these suggestions are designed to make other destinies obsolete...

 

[pinstripedbarbarian]

For reference, here’s a breakdown of each type of spell power and which Epic Destinies support them (Machrotechnic included*).

Force/Physical 4: PA, MotI, SC, SD
Cold 3: PA, DI, MotI
Fire 3: PA, DI, EA
Positive 3: PA, FS, EA
Electricity 3*: PA, DI, MT
Sonic 3*: PA, FS, MT
Light/Alignment 2ish: PA, EA, SC (Chaos only)
Acid 2: PA, DI
Poison 2: PA, DI
Negative 2: DI, MotI
Repair/Rust 1*: MT (though I don’t know that anyone is upset about there only being one)

Circling back to the topic of this thread:

Draconic Incarnation is already the MVP of spell power versatility (along with Primal Avatar). I can totally see adding Sonic to Blue DI, but it really doesn’t need a Force option. Force is fine. And while Light could use another tree (not limited to Chaos), I don’t see DI being the way to go.

I think Divine Crusader should definitely get Light/Alignment and probably Positive power added to its core. It already has three abilities that deal Light/Alignment (and two more named “X of light” even) which either scale off Melee/Ranged (or Fire) power. It also has multiple things that scale off Positive power, and unlike Fury of the Wild or Unyielding Sentinel, they *don’t* alternatively scale off of Melee power. Add 5 Light, Alignment, and Positive spell power to each of its cores, then scrap the Fire part of Crusade and make it and all the rest of that stuff work like other EDs where it takes the better of 200% Melee/Ranged or 100% spell power.

Other than that, give Machro Acid instead of Sonic (it’s battery acid it makes sense, way more than Sonic), give Negative to Thorn-Primal Avatar to match Blightcaster, and give Poison to Shadowdancer since it’s already so close to Assassin and Ninja Spy.

I came up with a couple ideas writing this out, but they got pretty long so I just made them a new Suggestion.

 

[Lotoc]

For reference, here’s a breakdown of each type of spell power and which Epic Destinies support them (Machrotechnic included*).

Force/Physical 5: PA, FS, MotI, SC, SD
Cold 3: PA, DI, MotI
Fire 3: PA, DI, EA
Positive 3: PA, FS, EA
Electricity 3*: PA, DI, MT
Sonic 3*: PA, FS, MT
Light/Alignment 2ish: PA, EA, SC (Chaos only)
Acid 2: PA, DI
Poison 2: PA, DI
Negative 2: DI, MotI
Repair/Rust 1*: MT (though I don’t know that anyone is upset about there only being one)

Circling back to the topic of this thread:

Draconic Incarnation is already the MVP of spell power versatility (along with Primal Avatar). I can totally see adding Sonic to Blue DI, but it really doesn’t need a Force option. Force is fine. And while Light could use another tree (not limited to Chaos), I don’t see DI being the way to go.

I think Divine Crusader should definitely get Light/Alignment and probably Positive power added to its core. It already has three abilities that deal Light/Alignment (and two more named “X of light” even) which either scale off Melee/Ranged (or Fire) power. It also has multiple things that scale off Positive power, and unlike Fury of the Wild or Unyielding Sentinel, they *don’t* alternatively scale off of Melee power. Add 5 Light, Alignment, and Positive spell power to each of its cores, then scrap the Fire part of Crusade and make it and all the rest of that stuff work like other EDs where it takes the better of 200% Melee/Ranged or 100% spell power.

Other than that, give Machro Acid instead of Sonic (it’s battery acid it makes sense, way more than Sonic), give Negative to Thorn-Primal Avatar to match Blightcaster, and give Poison to Shadowdancer since it’s already so close to Assassin and Ninja Spy.

I came up with a couple ideas writing this out, but they got pretty long so I just made them a new Suggestion.

The big issue with force isn't which trees give spellpower but that none of them actually give a truly good force SLA and none of them give a mantle for focused force casting (Primal is a 3 way split tree), also fatesinger doesn't have force spellpower.
Machrotechnic having sonic spells absolutely makes sense, the tree is literally "big technology" operating heavy machinery requires ear protection with the amount of noise it makes.
Poison and Acid are clearly planned for the eventual Serpent (alchemist) epic destiny as conveyed through the ED themed filigree sets that came with saltmarsh while the Cursekeeper (warlock) ED was going to cover negative and light/alignment

The main issue with representation across EDs is how incredibly slow SSG has been to bring out the remaining 3 ED trees and the only one we've gotten so far is MT.

 

[pinstripedbarbarian]

I must have left FS there when I was rearranging things. Edited it out for accuracy.

I agree that Force doesn't have as huge of an SLA as something like Dragon Breath, though I'd say Shadowdancer's force option isn't bad (though it's much more reliant on build). However, I would sooner see Magus get dedicated Force options on top of its Cold and Negative ones than adding yet another Dragon.

While Shiradi Mantle does allow for bursts of Force, the quality of that tree's caster support is questionable at best. But again, I think it would be better to take trees that already have Force support like Shadowdancer, Shiradi, and Magus, and give them some form of Force power in their Mantles.

For example, take the bonus damage from Shadowdancer's Dark Imbuement and Paranoia and just put it all into its Mantle. Make it scale and proc more like Fatesinger's or Primal Avatar's Mantles, and replace the existing upgrades to the Epic Strike with a way to improve that damage in some how.

As for Machro... I still don't agree. Yes machinery requires ear protection because it's loud. So are dragons. They roar. Really loud. Machinery also tends to overheat a lot and use corrosive batteries and emit toxic fumes. It could just as easily give Fire, Acid, or Poison as it does Sonic. I just think there are much more fitting trees for Sonic to be in.

I didn't know there were plans for other Epic Destinies announced, so if those were confirmed eventualities, then yeah those should also be taken into consideration for this sort of discussion. You're right though, additional EDs sure aren't coming out at a blistering pace to be sure.

 

[ShanachieWolf]

Taking away sonic from machrotechnic ruins a bunch of Machrotechnic/Fatesinger builds for both Artificers and Bards, especially if you are runearm swashbuckling which was explicitly supported by swashbuckler as an option. This is why I advocate for overlap instead of exclusivity. If you have a flavor build and not a meta minmax build, you shouldn't have options walled off for no reason. If it's a worry about too much synergy or stacking certain elemental bonuses, just do what's already done with other stacking options and make you choose only one version of it among all trees similar to stackable spell DC options that lock you out of another ED's version of it.

With Breath based builds being a thing, having them have support for all elements and corresponding breath attacks give it a reason to exist, especially since it already operates off a base of elementa/dragon type multiselector, so expanding options works off existing systems.

 

[Bravgji]

Look we all love proper caster support but it shouldn't all be given in one tree.

 

[Chacka]

For reference, here’s a breakdown of each type of spell power and which Epic Destinies support them (Machrotechnic included*).

Force/Physical 4: PA, MotI, SC, SD
Cold 3: PA, DI, MotI
Fire 3: PA, DI, EA
Positive 3: PA, FS, EA
Electricity 3*: PA, DI, MT
Sonic 3*: PA, FS, MT
Light/Alignment 2ish: PA, EA, SC (Chaos only)
Acid 2: PA, DI
Poison 2: PA, DI
Negative 2: DI, MotI
Repair/Rust 1*: MT (though I don’t know that anyone is upset about there only being one)

Circling back to the topic of this thread:

Draconic Incarnation is already the MVP of spell power versatility (along with Primal Avatar). I can totally see adding Sonic to Blue DI, but it really doesn’t need a Force option. Force is fine. And while Light could use another tree (not limited to Chaos), I don’t see DI being the way to go.

I think Divine Crusader should definitely get Light/Alignment and probably Positive power added to its core. It already has three abilities that deal Light/Alignment (and two more named “X of light” even) which either scale off Melee/Ranged (or Fire) power. It also has multiple things that scale off Positive power, and unlike Fury of the Wild or Unyielding Sentinel, they *don’t* alternatively scale off of Melee power. Add 5 Light, Alignment, and Positive spell power to each of its cores, then scrap the Fire part of Crusade and make it and all the rest of that stuff work like other EDs where it takes the better of 200% Melee/Ranged or 100% spell power.

Other than that, give Machro Acid instead of Sonic (it’s battery acid it makes sense, way more than Sonic), give Negative to Thorn-Primal Avatar to match Blightcaster, and give Poison to Shadowdancer since it’s already so close to Assassin and Ninja Spy.

I came up with a couple ideas writing this out, but they got pretty long so I just made them a new Suggestion.

Just because an ED adds some Force spell power doesn't mean that ED really supports Force damage casters. For me, the only really good ED for my Arcane Trickster MM build is Shiradi Champion. I use SD and DI too, but mostly for defensive purposes, and currently I have no real use for the additional destiny AP we get at levels 35 and 36.

But the main reason for my suggestion is that I think DI should support more different kinds of dragons, to give players more options. It feels odd to me that the most useful ED apart from my main one supports only Fire, Cold, Electric and Negative SP, while my character deals almost only Force damage.

 

[pinstripedbarbarian]

Just because an ED adds some Force spell power doesn't mean that ED really supports Force damage casters. For me, the only really good ED for my Arcane Trickster MM build is Shiradi Champion. I use SD and DI too, but mostly for defensive purposes, and currently I have no real use for the additional destiny AP we get at levels 35 and 36.

But the main reason for my suggestion is that I think DI should support more different kinds of dragons, to give players more options. It feels odd to me that the most useful ED apart from my main one supports only Fire, Cold, Electric and Negative SP, while my character deals almost only Force damage.

Again, expanding an already widespread ED so it would fit even more builds is not going to help balance things. That would only narrow the viability of which trees you would consider and push less common trees into even less use. Letting DI work with every caster would just end up with every caster focusing on DI because it offers a lot of power already. That isn't giving players more options; it's giving them one option and making the rest likely to be focused on.

Taking the EDs that already touch on an aspect and improving their support for that aspect so you'd actually consider it would increase player options. Magus getting a stronger focus on Force would be great; it already gives a bunch of Force power, so why not have its Cold and Negative stuff also have Force versions? Shadowdancer could absolutely use an improvement to its Mantle, so giving it a way to use Force there would be a huge upgrade.

Or, if you really want to expand how many trees a type of build can pick from, give more options to the narrower trees, not to the ones that already have a crazy amount of options. Machro and EA could absolutely support Force options parallel to their existing Electric/Sonic/Repair and Fire/Light/Positive options. Sure making them have *four* options might seem a little much... but not compared to giving DI a *seventh* option instead.

 

[Contessor]

Again, expanding an already widespread ED so it would fit even more builds is not going to help balance things. That would only narrow the viability of which trees you would consider and push less common trees into even less use. Letting DI work with every caster would just end up with every caster focusing on DI because it offers a lot of power already. That isn't giving players more options; it's giving them one option and making the rest likely to be focused on.

Taking the EDs that already touch on an aspect and improving their support for that aspect so you'd actually consider it would increase player options. Magus getting a stronger focus on Force would be great; it already gives a bunch of Force power, so why not have its Cold and Negative stuff also have Force versions? Shadowdancer could absolutely use an improvement to its Mantle, so giving it a way to use Force there would be a huge upgrade.

Or, if you really want to expand how many trees a type of build can pick from, give more options to the narrower trees, not to the ones that already have a crazy amount of options. Machro and EA could absolutely support Force options parallel to their existing Electric/Sonic/Repair and Fire/Light/Positive options. Sure making them have *four* options might seem a little much... but not compared to giving DI a *seventh* option instead.

Isn't DI supposed to be the damage focused spell tree? Honestly, I think adding options, as you suggested, gives less build flexibility. It forces you into a tree if you want to specialize in force or whatever is not supported in DI already. If you are a nuker, DI should be your main focus. You add the other trees based on what else you want to do.