Suggestion - do something about spell penetration requirements

[rabidfox]

I'm finding the current state of spell penetration annoying. To land most of my non-DPS spells/abilities (instas/CC) on my warlock I have to have both DCs for the school and spell penetration. This means needing to use 2 different lines of feats to boost both DCs & spell penetration, plus needing gear/other building aspects for both. Wiz/FvS past lives account for 9 spell penetration, which is a huge difference; offsetting that on 1st/low life characters is challenging. While martials only need to make 1 DC (no spell pen neded) to achieve similar results via trips, stuns, insta-kills from Ravenger, etc. etc.

Looking at my warlock's current spell list, here's the one (non-buff/utility type) spell that doesn't require spell pen:

Meanwhile, for all of these spells, I have to build for both spell pen + necro/enhancement/etc. DCs.

If I ignore spell pen, I can kiss all of those spells goodbye at cap. One suggestion I made before would be to add in a new destiny feat to help:

Add in a new Destiny feat:
Spell Penetration Specialty that gives +12 Spell Penetration (same as +2 from the base, +4 from Greater, and +6 from Epic); antireqs spell penetration feat. Prereq: Epic Spell Focus

Give Legendary Spell Focus: + 3 spell penetration too. Prereqs become: Epic (Spell Focus or penetration)

And modify prereqs so one can do Spell Focus or penetration lines to unlock stuff later.

So the new table would look like this:

Epic Spell Focus	any Greater Spell Focus (no longer has class requirements)	21	+2 to all spell schools
Spell Focus Specialty	Epic (Spell Focus or penetration)	31	+3 to a single spell school, may not select one you have a spell focus feat for (antireqs fixed!)
Spell Penetration Specialty	Epic Spell Focus	31	+12 Spell Penetration (antireq spell penetration feat)
Legendary Spell Focus	Epic (Spell Focus or penetration)	30	+3 to all spell schools & + 3 spell penetration

These changes allow more freedom for hitting DCs/Spell Pen & reduces the feat tax slightly. As a new destiny feat, one still has to make the choice between DCs/spell pen vs DPS via Epic Spell Power for crit damage; so there's trade-offs involved.

There's probably other ways to make things better. I'm not feeling picky about how it's improved, I'd just love some sort of improvement to increase the fun and reduce the pain of setting up spell pen.


edit: here's another thing SSG could do:
Here's a line graph showing how spell pen advances from leveling in heroic/epics (blue) vs how SSG should change things (red).

(Blue line- how things are right now) In heroics, we gain 1 CL per level and thus 1 spell pen value per level. In epics/legendary, we gain 1 CL every other level (via epic/legendary knowledge), thus we gain half-a-point of spell pen per level. This means epics & legendary level up spell pen progression is at half the rate of heroics, but I don't think monster CR progresses at half the rate starting at level 20; they keep progressing like they always have.

(Red line - how they could be) - if epic/legendary knowledge feats also gave +1 spell pen each time the feat is obtained, it'd keep the same spell pen progression on level up that we see in heroics. It's a little bumpy looking as it's providing the power every other level, but overall it'd be the same general progression.

 

[vik]

Why not add a lunar sp pen +10 augment? Seems like an easy win for the devs. Solar slots are a lot tighter since most casters probably would want artifact casting stat +4, artifact sp focus +3, artifact sp pwr +25, artifact sp crit +6, and leg sp crit dmg +15. Lunar we have profane casting stat +4, profane sp focus +3, profane sp pwr +25, and 2 of your choice.

 

[vik]

-The elder's set unique stacking bonus should be sent to the chopping block.

Maybe someone else has figured it out, but I haven't been able to find a way to fit in that set bonus with u81 gear. Adding in a few DC items like Grip of the Marilith ruins it for me. So it will fall by the wayside once I get my u81 gear.

 

[Kimbere]

I feel like spell pen is in a good spot in regards to gear and feats. With absolutely no build investment any caster can get to a baseline ~61 spell pen:

Spoiler: Breakdown

30​	caster level​
10​	enhancement​
10​	artifact​
5​	insight​
3​	quality​
3​	legendary​
61​	​

Which already gives you a roughly 30% success chance against the highest spell resistance mobs I've found so far (drow in r10 sorcere @ 75). There are numerous options and combinations from there to get close to 100%:
-12 from feats
-9 from past lives
-14 from destinies
-up to 14 from certain enhancement tree combinations
-5 reaper enhancements

I think the enhancement trees are likely the weak link for certain builds. Spending 6 AP for only 3 spell pen seems more expensive to me than choosing between the feats or pastlives. I'd like to see the various racial arcanum enhancements reduced to 1 AP per tier to match duergar, and possibly buff the various class tree spell pen enhancements up to +2 per tier. More gearing options for quality/legendary would also be welcome.

Napkin math/theory in a vacuum is great and all, but go ahead and post a full build with a full gearset that gets 65ish spell pen AND enough DCs to not fail the DC checks >25% of the time.

Then post an Evo nuker build with gear that has enough spell pen to fail the checks less than 25% of the time AND enough DCs to not fail those checks less than 25% AND still have enough spellpower to nuke things reasonably well. Even Evo nukers have some secondary spells that require DC and spell pen checks.

 

[Abramax]

remove spell resistance from the game... I mean, we already have spell DC to succed...

 

[norriskwondo]

I'm finding the current state of spell penetration annoying. To land most of my non-DPS spells/abilities (instas/CC) on my warlock I have to have both DCs for the school and spell penetration. This means needing to use 2 different lines of feats to boost both DCs & spell penetration, plus needing gear/other building aspects for both. Wiz/FvS past lives account for 9 spell penetration, which is a huge difference; offsetting that on 1st/low life characters is challenging. While martials only need to make 1 DC (no spell pen neded) to achieve similar results via trips, stuns, insta-kills from Ravenger, etc. etc.

Looking at my warlock's current spell list, here's the one (non-buff/utility type) spell that doesn't require spell pen:

Meanwhile, for all of these spells, I have to build for both spell pen + necro/enhancement/etc. DCs.

If I ignore spell pen, I can kiss all of those spells goodbye at cap. One suggestion I made before would be to add in a new destiny feat to help:

There's probably other ways to make things better. I'm not feeling picky about how it's improved, I'd just love some sort of improvement to increase the fun and reduce the pain of setting up spell pen.

I crafted caster gloves with universal lore, spell pen, and ins. spell pen into them. if you're lucky enough to get an orb with red and orange slot, you can use a spell pen aug in your orb, which would also enhance your casting even as warlock by using an orb. I believe. When I say gloves or orbs, I mean one every 4 levels 1-32. So enough to carry me through legendary at current levels.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

Napkin math/theory in a vacuum is great and all, but go ahead and post a full build with a full gearset that gets 65ish spell pen AND enough DCs to not fail the DC checks >25% of the time.

The point was to show that there are many ways to achieve the same goal, as an example, this is what I'm currently using on my feat/gear starved cleric:

Spoiler: Spell pen

30​	caster level​
6​	wiz pl​
3​	fvs pl​
10​	enh​
10​	artifact​
3​	arcanum​
3​	feydark​
4​	fatesinger​
1​	filigree​
5​	reaper​
1​	ship​
76​	​

Then post an Evo nuker build with gear that has enough spell pen to fail the checks less than 25% of the time AND enough DCs to not fail those checks less than 25% AND still have enough spellpower to nuke things reasonably well. Even Evo nukers have some secondary spells that require DC and spell pen checks.

For nuker, swap artifact (hard to fit with elders) for an insightful item instead, and go magus instead of fatesinger. Or just spend the feats... or fit in quality/legendary... or stack some additional trees... so many options...

 

[Oriathim]

The point was to show that there are many ways to achieve the same goal, as an example, this is what I'm currently using on my feat/gear starved cleric:

Spoiler: Spell pen

30​	caster level​
6​	wiz pl​
3​	fvs pl​
10​	enh​
10​	artifact​
3​	arcanum​
3​	feydark​
4​	fatesinger​
1​	filigree​
5​	reaper​
1​	ship​
76​	​

For nuker, swap artifact (hard to fit with elders) for an insightful item instead, and go magus instead of fatesinger. Or just spend the feats... or fit in quality/legendary... or stack some additional trees... so many options...

It's not that reaching spell pen requirements is impossible, it's that it's significantly more difficult than it should be. + I really don't think showing that cleric can reach X spell pen is good benchmark. Cleric needs 3 stats on gear, positive power, positive crit and positive crit multiplier. Everything else can go to whatever you feel like. Any caster need all of the above (swap to spell power you want) + spell pen + spell dc (of each type you cast spells of). I'm bit biased since I play mainly EK, and squeezing that in is simply impossible. I can do a little bit of melee stats, DC for enchantment and enough necro to IK weak fort saves enemies, and spell power. After going full tetris with new xpack i'll gain +5 insightful spell pen which will leave me at 30-50% fail rate of spells against some enemies.

 

[Kimbere]

The point was to show that there are many ways to achieve the same goal, as an example, this is what I'm currently using on my feat/gear starved cleric:

Spoiler: Spell pen

30​	caster level​
6​	wiz pl​
3​	fvs pl​
10​	enh​
10​	artifact​
3​	arcanum​
3​	feydark​
4​	fatesinger​
1​	filigree​
5​	reaper​
1​	ship​
76​	​

For nuker, swap artifact (hard to fit with elders) for an insightful item instead, and go magus instead of fatesinger. Or just spend the feats... or fit in quality/legendary... or stack some additional trees... so many options...

So post a full build with gearset.

Let's see the whole picture - spell pen, DCs, spellpower, etc.

Show everyone how easy it is to build and gear a great caster.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

So post a full build with gearset.

Let's see the whole picture - spell pen, DCs, spellpower, etc.

Show everyone how easy it is to build and gear a great caster.

I never said its easy to build or gear a great caster, especially not one that does damage. That's basically impossible now if you aren't a trickster since the meta-proc nerf. Completely separate issue.

As for the spell pen topic, I don't see how posting a full build helps anyone not running that specific build. (not to mention derails this thread) It would be more useful if you said which build is struggling with spell pen and then I could make recommendations.

 

[Lazuli]

I never said its easy to build or gear a great caster, especially not one that does damage. That's basically impossible now if you aren't a trickster since the meta-proc nerf. Completely separate issue.

As for the spell pen topic, I don't see how posting a full build helps anyone not running that specific build. (not to mention derails this thread) It would be more useful if you said which build is struggling with spell pen and then I could make recommendations.

Because the problem isn't fit in the build one specific stat, the problem is fit all of them in the actual stat bloat. When you give a solution in a vacuum you are ignoring the problem we have fitting all.

Devs have to do something with this stat bloat of the casters, sorry.

 

[Kimbere]

I never said its easy to build or gear a great caster, especially not one that does damage. That's basically impossible now if you aren't a trickster since the meta-proc nerf. Completely separate issue.

As for the spell pen topic, I don't see how posting a full build helps anyone not running that specific build. (not to mention derails this thread) It would be more useful if you said which build is struggling with spell pen and then I could make recommendations.

That is the point I am making.

Aside from a mildly interesting mental exercise, it doesn't matter if you can successfully min/max one stat on a caster (or any other archetype really) when it comes at the expense of other abilities a build requires to be effective. Doing that makes for a poor build and play experience.

I don't feel it is a separate issue here. You posted this in a thread where the OP is making the point that casters struggle to hit useful spell pen numbers while also hitting good stats in the other required casting stuff. As a reminder:

I'm finding the current state of spell penetration annoying. To land most of my non-DPS spells/abilities (instas/CC) on my warlock I have to have both DCs for the school and spell penetration. This means needing to use 2 different lines of feats to boost both DCs & spell penetration, plus needing gear/other building aspects for both. Wiz/FvS past lives account for 9 spell penetration, which is a huge difference; offsetting that on 1st/low life characters is challenging. While martials only need to make 1 DC (no spell pen neded) to achieve similar results via trips, stuns, insta-kills from Ravenger, etc. etc.

Posting theoretical min/max stats in a vacuum might give someone who just skims this thread (maybe even devs) the wrong impression and lead them towards thinking casters are fine with regard to spell pen. If this were a thread asking, "What's the max spell pen these days?" I think it would be a bit different and less likely to be misinterpreted.

Asking you to post a full build was mostly a rhetorical challenge to highlight difficulty of doing so in case someone is just skimming the thread. As you say, it would be very difficult, maybe even impossible to do - especially for a non-multipletionist toon.

Also, on the off chance you were able to post a full build that was effective in all those aspects, I'd would have gained some very useful DDO knowledge.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

Also, on the off chance you were able to post a full build that was effective in all those aspects, I'd would have gained some very useful DDO knowledge.

I'd be happy to share useful DDO knowledge. Just post the build that's struggling with spell pen and I can offer suggestions, if I can't then ill offer suggestions to the devs on how to fix it instead.

 

[Kimbere]

I'd be happy to share useful DDO knowledge. Just post the build that's struggling with spell pen and I can offer suggestions, if I can't then ill offer suggestions to the devs on how to fix it instead.

You're still missing the point.

 

[ChickenMobile]

At this point I've just been ignoring spell pen entirely because it has been nothing but trouble for my bard - even before Chill of Ravenloft was released. If there are mobs that have high spell pen like Drow or Demons, would just use a form of CC that has none. e.g. GCS, Greater Shout, Burst of Glacial Wrath.
Even then, these spells didn't often land because I have to focus everything into Enchantment DCs and Evocation/Illusion was therefore lacking.
I admit the spell DC initiative helped a bit - but only with a single school. Dog ass decision if you ask me.

I hate that 20% (9) of spell pen needed is hidden behind past lives. This character has always been a first-lifer.
I hate that 12 is stuck behind 3 feats which are already tight to choose from (should I just drop every DPS metamagic and just become a hold bot instead? Like cmon SSG).

I've tried to regear them with the new loot on the Gear Planner - and not sure even then my Spell DCs will be high enough. Though I had to entirely drop Swashbuckler to fit everything in. They have been slowly getting more and more grazing hits since Vecna expansion. It saddens me, because it was really fun with the hybrid runearm swf/ shouting playstyle w/ Machrotechnic - and now Hybrids are just not valid (even a little) anymore.

So below is what I came up with for Spell Pen on a full 20 caster bard in R1+ (no heroic PLs):
Note: Penetration checks are usually 1.5 - 2x of monster CRs. For an example: The Dretches in ToD are CR46, which I think requires around 70 Pen to work.

So it's good enough (I think), but not ideal for tougher Spell Resistance enemies such as Drow.
I think - will need a swap spell pen item somewhere that has +5 insightful + 10 Solar + 9 augment specifically for spell resisting enemies which swaps with spell crit damage item for every other mob in the game without SR or something. (I hate this btw)

Breakdown Spell Pen:

Base Caster Levels (level 36)	28
Epic PL: Eclipse Power x3	3
Fatesinger: A little bit of Music	1
Fatesinger: Arcane Resonance	2
Fatesinger: Grim Precision	3
Shadowdancer: Grim Precision	3
Spellsinger: Prodigy	3
Dire Thaumaturge (Reaper)	5
Guild Ship: Arcane Sanctum	1
Item (Equipment Bonus, are gems now +10 with 36?)	10
Solar Augment/Artifact Bonus	10
Filigree: Eye of the Beholder (3 set)	1
Total:	70

 

[Smokewolf]

Spell penetration is a (insert your favorite expletive here) useless requirement and should be decremented from game play. Until such point its completely removed from the game.

 

[Honkin]

I do think spell pen still has its uses as a mechanic to separate nuking casters from DC casters. It should be given as part of the cores or capstones in those trees, though.

 

[rabidfox]

I do think spell pen still has its uses as a mechanic to separate nuking casters from DC casters. It should be given as part of the cores or capstones in those trees, though.

The seperation between nuking and DC casters to me is evoc (or conjuration for alch) DCs vs necro/enchant/etc. DCs. Along with meta choices for DCs or damage, spell crit damage gear, crit gear, etc. Many non-nuke spells need both spell pen and necro/enchant/etc. DCs; double gearing stats/doubling up on feat lines, it becomes tedious and problematic to tetris to me. A non-nuke focus build can still do damage, just not as much; a build not hitting spell pen + school DCs ends up ignoring a bunch of spells because they never land.

 

[Honkin]

The seperation between nuking and DC casters to me is evoc (or conjuration for alch) DCs vs necro/enchant/etc. DCs. Along with meta choices for DCs or damage, spell crit damage gear, crit gear, etc. Many non-nuke spells need both spell pen and necro/enchant/etc. DCs; double gearing stats/doubling up on feat lines, it becomes tedious and problematic to tetris to me. A non-nuke focus build can still do damage, just not as much; a build not hitting spell pen + school DCs ends up ignoring a bunch of spells because they never land.

I'm struggling to think of an example of a damaging spell that has an SR check, but maybe that's not your point.

My point was more so that if spell resistance is going to continue to exist (and I think it should), it should serve to differentiate between playstyles. I'm picturing a world where a nuker can penetrate SR in r10 perhaps 50% of the time without investment, while a pure DC caster has essentially no-fail spell penetration. And then perhaps the nuker can spend points in the DC caster tree or pick up feats if they want to close that gap.

There is still CC that doesn't require a spell penetration check that the nuker can use, and they can still use enchantment or necro spells on enemies with low saves and low SR.

I think most people underestimate how hard it much be to balance DDO casting because of the save-or-suck spells. I don't think that every caster should be able to land instakills without investment because that will trivialize content. I also think that casters should be better at sustained DPS than they currently are.

I would also like to see a world where spells like Command, Compelled Duel, and Banishment are on the paladin spell list and use the highest stat; it would give flavor and variety to the class. In that hypothetical scenario, SR is a good check to make sure those spells are useful for paladins against low-SR enemies without diminishing the role of a full caster.

 

[rabidfox]

I'm struggling to think of an example of a damaging spell that has an SR check, but maybe that's not your point.

Yeah, that wasn't my point. My point was that nukes need evoc DCs + damage metas + spell crit + spell crit damage. They're generally not fitting in multiple other schools for DC casting effectively alongside that; and if they do fit in addtional school DCs, most of their non-nukes would still need to have spell pen too to have a chance to work. On paper, one might thing they'd be doing everything, but the feats & gear are likely not there for that.

Meanwhile a DC caster would be doing necro DC feats + gear, enhancement DC feats + gear, etc. for multiple schools. Plus they need spell pen feats/pastlives/gear. They also need some damage gear/setup so they're not completely useless against bosses/insta-immune mobs.

I personally feel that both styles have a ton of tetris, feats, & past lives involved to fully work and that spell pen shouldn't be as annoying to add in as it currently is for me. I don't think it needs to be removed, but I think we should have way more sources of spell pen and choices to open up the fun. It's simply reached the point that doing 6x past lives for spell pen is less annoying for me than trying to build/tetris without them. I liked the recent DC work, but I feel that spell pen needs some work to go alongside it.

 

[EinarMal]

Yeah, that wasn't my point. My point was that nukes need evoc DCs + damage metas + spell crit + spell crit damage. They're generally not fitting in multiple other schools for DC casting effectively alongside that; and if they do fit in addtional school DCs, most of their non-nukes would still need to have spell pen too to have a chance to work. On paper, one might thing they'd be doing everything, but the feats & gear are likely not there for that.

Meanwhile a DC caster would be doing necro DC feats + gear, enhancement DC feats + gear, etc. for multiple schools. Plus they need spell pen feats/pastlives/gear. They also need some damage gear/setup so they're not completely useless against bosses/insta-immune mobs.

I personally feel that both styles have a ton of tetris, feats, & past lives involved to fully work and that spell pen shouldn't be as annoying to add in as it currently is for me. I don't think it needs to be removed, but I think we should have way more sources of spell pen and choices to open up the fun. It's simply reached the point that doing 6x past lives for spell pen is less annoying for me than trying to build/tetris without them. I liked the recent DC work, but I feel that spell pen needs some work to go alongside it.

I agree. Even with past lives on a nuking Sorc landing mass hold is probably not worth the investment for SR, unless you are going Magus and cold.

To me, they should remove SR checks from CC spells and leave them on insta-kills.

I don't think all nukers should be forced to run Magus to land CC spells like mass hold, they already have to build in DC.