Suggestion - do something about spell penetration requirements

[rabidfox]

I'm finding the current state of spell penetration annoying. To land most of my non-DPS spells/abilities (instas/CC) on my warlock I have to have both DCs for the school and spell penetration. This means needing to use 2 different lines of feats to boost both DCs & spell penetration, plus needing gear/other building aspects for both. Wiz/FvS past lives account for 9 spell penetration, which is a huge difference; offsetting that on 1st/low life characters is challenging. While martials only need to make 1 DC (no spell pen neded) to achieve similar results via trips, stuns, insta-kills from Ravenger, etc. etc.

Looking at my warlock's current spell list, here's the one (non-buff/utility type) spell that doesn't require spell pen:

Meanwhile, for all of these spells, I have to build for both spell pen + necro/enhancement/etc. DCs.

If I ignore spell pen, I can kiss all of those spells goodbye at cap. One suggestion I made before would be to add in a new destiny feat to help:

Add in a new Destiny feat:
Spell Penetration Specialty that gives +12 Spell Penetration (same as +2 from the base, +4 from Greater, and +6 from Epic); antireqs spell penetration feat. Prereq: Epic Spell Focus

Give Legendary Spell Focus: + 3 spell penetration too. Prereqs become: Epic (Spell Focus or penetration)

And modify prereqs so one can do Spell Focus or penetration lines to unlock stuff later.

So the new table would look like this:

Epic Spell Focus	any Greater Spell Focus (no longer has class requirements)	21	+2 to all spell schools
Spell Focus Specialty	Epic (Spell Focus or penetration)	31	+3 to a single spell school, may not select one you have a spell focus feat for (antireqs fixed!)
Spell Penetration Specialty	Epic Spell Focus	31	+12 Spell Penetration (antireq spell penetration feat)
Legendary Spell Focus	Epic (Spell Focus or penetration)	30	+3 to all spell schools & + 3 spell penetration

These changes allow more freedom for hitting DCs/Spell Pen & reduces the feat tax slightly. As a new destiny feat, one still has to make the choice between DCs/spell pen vs DPS via Epic Spell Power for crit damage; so there's trade-offs involved.

There's probably other ways to make things better. I'm not feeling picky about how it's improved, I'd just love some sort of improvement to increase the fun and reduce the pain of setting up spell pen.


edit: here's another thing SSG could do:
Here's a line graph showing how spell pen advances from leveling in heroic/epics (blue) vs how SSG should change things (red).

(Blue line- how things are right now) In heroics, we gain 1 CL per level and thus 1 spell pen value per level. In epics/legendary, we gain 1 CL every other level (via epic/legendary knowledge), thus we gain half-a-point of spell pen per level. This means epics & legendary level up spell pen progression is at half the rate of heroics, but I don't think monster CR progresses at half the rate starting at level 20; they keep progressing like they always have.

(Red line - how they could be) - if epic/legendary knowledge feats also gave +1 spell pen each time the feat is obtained, it'd keep the same spell pen progression on level up that we see in heroics. It's a little bumpy looking as it's providing the power every other level, but overall it'd be the same general progression.

 

[EinarMal]

I'm struggling to think of an example of a damaging spell that has an SR check, but maybe that's not your point.

My point was more so that if spell resistance is going to continue to exist (and I think it should), it should serve to differentiate between playstyles. I'm picturing a world where a nuker can penetrate SR in r10 perhaps 50% of the time without investment, while a pure DC caster has essentially no-fail spell penetration. And then perhaps the nuker can spend points in the DC caster tree or pick up feats if they want to close that gap.

There is still CC that doesn't require a spell penetration check that the nuker can use, and they can still use enchantment or necro spells on enemies with low saves and low SR.

I think most people underestimate how hard it much be to balance DDO casting because of the save-or-suck spells. I don't think that every caster should be able to land instakills without investment because that will trivialize content. I also think that casters should be better at sustained DPS than they currently are.

I would also like to see a world where spells like Command, Compelled Duel, and Banishment are on the paladin spell list and use the highest stat; it would give flavor and variety to the class. In that hypothetical scenario, SR is a good check to make sure those spells are useful for paladins against low-SR enemies without diminishing the role of a full caster.

It's impossible to do all of these things already, even without the problems with spell resistance. I don't think it is too much to ask for a nuker to also have CC; martial builds certainly can do both.

To land reliable CC and nuke, you need DCs at least 125+ in evocation, illusion, and enchantment; typically, most casters are going to have 3 elements to support, throw spell resistance on top, and it's just impossible.

The only way a sorc can hit spell penetration numbers is to run Magus. Is that really good game design to force every Sorc to run Magus?

 

[Lotoc]

While martials only need to make 1 DC (no spell pen neded) to achieve similar results via trips, stuns, insta-kills from Ravenger, etc. etc.

the majority of martial tactics DCs need to also succeed a to hit roll, which is basically equivalent to a spell pen check (your to hit value +d20 vs AC/Spell resist)
Except martials have to deal with this bounded accuracy system which means you always have at least a 20% chance to fail to connect no matter how much to hit you have.

 

[rabidfox]

the majority of martial tactics DCs need to also succeed a to hit roll, which is basically equivalent to a spell pen check (your to hit value +d20 vs AC/Spell resist)
Except martials have to deal with this bounded accuracy system which means you always have at least a 20% chance to fail to connect no matter how much to hit you have.

Using that approach, all spell pen should be replaced with Evoc DC rolls (as landing Evoc DCs is what nuker damage is tied to).

Could even take it futher and add in grazing hits for DCs spells. Where I still hit them with my insta-kill by only do 25% of their HP in damage instead of insta-killing them; that'd be solid vs deathwarded mobs.

 

[Lotoc]

Anyway as an aside, there are some classes that badly need spell pen or a bypass to spell resistance checks in their caster trees.

Blightcaster and Dark Apostate being big examples, where they tried to turn offensive utility spells into damage options (Poison of the Hydra - you don't even get the poison immunity strip on a failed spell resist check, Pray for Mercy and Cursed Words)
There is a supreme irony in Dark Apostate having Pray for Mercy as their intended (undertuned) alternative to negative energy casting for when things can't be harmed with negative and then Golems have infinite spell resist so it doesn't do anything.

Additionally debuffing spell resist should be a more present option, we have debuffs to AC and Saves, MRR and PRR all over the place but it seems the only spell resist debuff is shattermantle?

 

[Smokewolf]

I do think spell pen still has its uses as a mechanic to separate nuking casters from DC casters. It should be given as part of the cores or capstones in those trees, though.

Sorry but Spell-Pen is just another form of Feat / Gear tax designed to punish DC-casters for not playing a DPS. Its a mechanic that has zero redeemable value for players and only serves as a skill-wall. One that both veteran and new players alike could easily do without.

Q: Can you legitimately name one good reason while it should remain?

I can not, but i can 100% see its decrmentaion being a huge boon for Casters. Both in terms of game-play and gear Tetris simplification.

 

[Contessor]

Sorry but Spell-Pen is just another form of Feat / Gear tax designed to punish DC-casters for not playing a DPS. Its a mechanic that has zero redeemable value for players and only serves as a skill-wall. One that both veteran and new players alike could easily do without.

Q: Can you legitimately name one good reason while it should remain?

I can not, but i can 100% see its decrmentaion being a huge boon for Casters. Both in terms of game-play and gear Tetris simplification.

In PnP it has legitamate use. It prevents a mortal caster from controlling a demon for example. It also was viable for Paladins and Monks to to not be subject to controlling effects, and committing sins against their faith.

In the game, I am not certain it has as much value. As a matter of fact, with stat bloat, it is largely ridiculously implemented and to me seems to be bastardize the whole lore vs PnP. I mean every monster and character with SR is a bit insane and completely out of spirit of its intended function.

 

[rabidfox]

Spell Resistance in the D&D 3.5 gave +1 Spell Penetration per Epic level (by giving +1 Caster Level per Epic level). I'd be good if they added +1 Spell Penetration per stack of Epic/Legendary Knowledge gained to keep parity.

That's a good suggestion. Epic/legendary knowledge currently gives +1 CL/MCL every other level, which means our spell pen after level 20 progressess at half the rate of heroics (only every other level). If they added on +1 spell onto those feats too, then we'd progress at the same curve rate as heroics (an average of one extra spell pen per epic/legendary level). That'd be an extra 8 spell pen at cap, it'd be a nice change for setups.

 

[Smokewolf]

In PnP it has legitamate use. It prevents a mortal caster from controlling a demon for example. It also was viable for Paladins and Monks to to not be subject to controlling effects, and committing sins against their faith.

In the game, I am not certain it has as much value. As a matter of fact, with stat bloat, it is largely ridiculously implemented and to me seems to be bastardize the whole lore vs PnP. I mean every monster and character with SR is a bit insane and completely out of spirit of its intended function.

When DDO first came out, SP had a valid role for both players and mobs. Now days its a fluff stat for Players and Solid Wall for mobs. This is why it needs to be killed off, its application has turned into a tool the Dev's are using as a barrier for entry to DC casting, and nothing more.

 

[Contessor]

When DDO first came out, SP had a valid role for both players and mobs. Now days its a fluff stat for Players and Solid Wall for mobs. This is why it needs to be killed off, its application has turned into a tool the Dev's are using as a barrier for entry to DC casting, and nothing more.

Depends on if WoTC would let them kill it. But fi they only knew how bastardized SR and even d20 rolls were though, I am guessing they would not be verry happy at the state either.

 

[fiwabar]

I'm finding the current state of spell penetration annoying. To land most of my non-DPS spells/abilities (instas/CC) on my warlock I have to have both DCs for the school and spell penetration. This means needing to use 2 different lines of feats to boost both DCs & spell penetration, plus needing gear/other building aspects for both. Wiz/FvS past lives account for 9 spell penetration, which is a huge difference; offsetting that on 1st/low life characters is challenging. While martials only need to make 1 DC (no spell pen neded) to achieve similar results via trips, stuns, insta-kills from Ravenger, etc. etc.

Looking at my warlock's current spell list, here's the one (non-buff/utility type) spell that doesn't require spell pen:

Meanwhile, for all of these spells, I have to build for both spell pen + necro/enhancement/etc. DCs.

If I ignore spell pen, I can kiss all of those spells goodbye at cap. One suggestion I made before would be to add in a new destiny feat to help:

There's probably other ways to make things better. I'm not feeling picky about how it's improved, I'd just love some sort of improvement to increase the fun and reduce the pain of setting up spell pen.

I support your idea. Although I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, it provided a certain direction. The caster had to sacrifice a lot to be good at their craft and provide real support to the group. I remember how, in the old epics, a caster with good CC was in high demand for runs like “Small Problem,” and even more so for DA, where the success of the run depended on whether he had (or didn’t have) solid DC and penetration to cast CC that would stop the mobs and allow the melee to turn them into mincemeat. Back then, casters rarely dealt damage unless it was on raids (e.g., Shroud Part 2 on the Crystal). The same applies to Divine classes, which also have instakills and DC + spell penetration to break through defenses. On the other hand… that’s not coming back, and today every class is becoming more and more geared toward solo play rather than group play, so this is actually an unnecessary complication. I’m writing about this—especially the first point—because I think it was a good system (and I also play a caster, but one focused on enchanted). Back when not everyone was a jack-of-all-trades, and playing in a group was more rewarding and enriched the gameplay. And this would be another step toward even more solo play. Hence my mixed feelings. I’ll set aside all the arithmetic related to who gets how much spell penetration, under what circumstances, and why so little. I consider that a secondary issue at the moment.
Besides, there’s another point—what about “no save” spells that require only spell penetration? Energy Drain, Symbol of Death, Otto Irr. Etc. I’m sure you took these into consideration when writing this suggestion—do you have any thoughts on this in light of the change? I’m asking openly, out of curiosity.

 

[rabidfox]

Besides, there’s another point—what about “no save” spells that require only spell penetration? Energy Drain, Symbol of Death, Otto Irr. Etc. I’m sure you took these into consideration when writing this suggestion—do you have any thoughts on this in light of the change? I’m asking openly, out of curiosity.

1st lifers, low life alts, etc. would be able to land them more. They'd have more ways to build to take advantage of those spells. My initial suggestion was for adding an epic destiny feat to make it it easier to build for spell pen (the same way one can use Spell Specialty epic destiny feat for secondard schools for DC casting). I don't think those spells should be the domain of people with 3xWiz, 3xFvS past lives; so maybe they'll get used more. I feel like some of those aren't used much at cap: Symbol of death is a 1 minute cooldown, otto irr is touch range and single target, and energy drains usages tend to be niche. Now maybe there's someone out there that loves those spells, uses them all the time currently, and enjoys building for spell pen; and they're welcome to chime in on that view too.

 

[fiwabar]

I think I may have misunderstood your suggestion a bit. Specifically, regarding removing spell penetration or merging it with spell focus feats. Especially in the first case—removal—this wouldn’t just affect the spells I mentioned but also the Power Words. They could become too powerful if, in addition to being “no save,” they were also “no spell penetration required,” and simply extending the cooldown might not be very effective. And given the game’s track record with changes, this would be highly error-prone—and it wouldn’t be long before a raid boss started dancing to the tune of some wizard or bard. Literally. And to the argument that it’s a Purple-named boss and that DC or spell resistance have nothing to do with it, SSG would reply, “Hold my beer.”

 

[rabidfox]

I think I may have misunderstood your suggestion a bit. Specifically, regarding removing spell penetration or merging it with spell focus feats. Especially in the first case—removal—this wouldn’t just affect the spells I mentioned but also the Power Words. They could become too powerful if, in addition to being “no save,” they were also “no spell penetration required,” and simply extending the cooldown might not be very effective. And given the game’s track record with changes, this would be highly error-prone—and it wouldn’t be long before a raid boss started dancing to the tune of some wizard or bard. Literally. And to the argument that it’s a Purple-named boss and that DC or spell resistance have nothing to do with it, SSG would reply, “Hold my beer.”

I didn't suggest removing it nor merging it with spell focus feats. I did suggest making less a pain in backside to effectively get. And that the gap of 9 spell pen between a 1st lifer and someone with 3x Wiz & 3xFvS past lives made a massive difference. Others have suggested removing it entirely since that post. This was my initial suggestion of a thing SSG could do (I'm also open to SSG solving the frustation via other methods):

Add in a new Destiny feat:
Spell Penetration Specialty that gives +12 Spell Penetration (same as +2 from the base, +4 from Greater, and +6 from Epic); antireqs spell penetration feat. Prereq: Epic Spell Focus

Give Legendary Spell Focus: + 3 spell penetration too. Prereqs become: Epic (Spell Focus or penetration)

And modify prereqs so one can do Spell Focus or penetration lines to unlock stuff later.

So the new table would look like this:

Epic Spell Focus	any Greater Spell Focus (no longer has class requirements)	21	+2 to all spell schools
Spell Focus Specialty	Epic (Spell Focus or penetration)	31	+3 to a single spell school, may not select one you have a spell focus feat for (antireqs fixed!)
Spell Penetration Specialty	Epic Spell Focus	31	+12 Spell Penetration (antireq spell penetration feat)
Legendary Spell Focus	Epic (Spell Focus or penetration)	30	+3 to all spell schools & + 3 spell penetration

These changes allow more freedom for hitting DCs/Spell Pen & reduces the feat tax slightly. As a new destiny feat, one still has to make the choice between DCs/spell pen vs DPS via Epic Spell Power for crit damage; so there's trade-offs involved.

^ that change wouldn't remove the feats, but would let someone take a combo'd spell pen feat line via epic destiny feats.

 

[rabidfox]

Here's a line graph showing how spell pen advances from leveling in heroic/epics (blue) vs how SSG should change things (red).

(Blue line- how things are right now) In heroics, we gain 1 CL per level and thus 1 spell pen value per level. In epics/legendary, we gain 1 CL every other level (via epic/legendary knowledge), thus we gain half-a-point of spell pen per level. This means epics & legendary level up spell pen progression is at half the rate of heroics, but I don't think monster CR progresses at half the rate starting at level 20; they keep progressing like they always have.

(Red line - how they could be) - if epic/legendary knowledge feats also gave +1 spell pen each time the feat is obtained, it'd keep the same spell pen progression on level up that we see in heroics. It's a little bumpy looking as it's providing the power every other level, but overall it'd be the same general progression.