Suggestion: Spread boosts to Hirelings and summons to more Destiny trees.

NightHiker

Well-known member
It's objectively valid. Hires(/summons/pets) are bad when looking at the whole picture. Just because a few can function nicely doesn't mean they're good as a system. If only 1 build in the game worked for bows and the rest were horrible to play then I'd call bows bad; the exception to the rule doesn't change things IMO. But it's just how people label things, you simply choose to label the 5% of hires as functional while I look at 95% that are bad for how I label them. I can't currently tell someone, grab any hire and you'll be good, I have to say "grab X hire at Y level and they're decent but don't use the other hires"; I don't like that.
Fair enough. I guess I could say we agree in practice, though not in language - I don't mean to be a prick about it, it's just that as someone who writes for a living I care a lot for being as precise as possible in how we communicate - even then I still seem to fail quite often, so...

I'm not against more stuff for them in epics; I just think the more bandaids they put in there the less the they're likely do in heroics [...] Take the HP and movement speed buffs from the current EDs and bake them into the augmented summoning feat/etc.
We can agree on that as well. I think they could "easily" do both things, so I see no problem in defending/suggesting that they do both without prejudice to either. And I assume you agree that just giving a hp and a speed boost to them via augmented summoning would not be a fix for the whole hire situation either, so a later, full hireling pass would still be welcome.

I personaly found Severlin's comments, on a live from a few years ago, about creating a permanent hireling that would level up with you through the whole life very interesting, and hope they have not completely shelved it.

Cheers,
NH
 
  • Haha
Reactions: DBZ

NightHiker

Well-known member
Some basic thing that'd make me happy:
Add 10% movement speed to hires/pets/summons per druid past life (beyond it's current perk); so they can keep up with me.

Add my reaper HP to hires (this one might be questionable as the devs might not want them to perform well there, but many are way too squishy even for r1 with exceptions of newer gold seals like Teal). But I'd really like my arti dog to be functional in the content I'm running.

Put HP and/or movement speed to hire buffs into augmented summoning.

Give all hires faster cast times; when they sit there confused trying to use a mass cure/heal and don't get a cast off, it's annoying.

Make hires take reduced damage from certain environmental effects like lava/etc. So when they path thru stuff like the fools they are they don't die instantly while I try spamming the teleport to me function.
Thanks, those are some interesting suggestions. I wish we had started our conversation here with that... :D

The suggestion for adding more health thru the reaper perks may be better than adding it to Destinies - as I think reaper difficulty is where their health is found most lacking (so it may be better for balance). I still think the Destinies, thru the mantles, might be the best place for offensive buffs, since it would allow people to better tailor their hireling usage to match their builds and playstyle.

I don't mind hires and pets being a bit more impervious to environmental damage either. The casting time thing might be an issue that demands some AI rework and therefore be relegated to an actual pass, though.

Cheers,
NH
 
Last edited:

Guntango

Well-known member
Depending on the development team's current workload, I'd argue that the only way hireling improvement sees the light of day is if they're running extremely efficiently and meeting or beating current project milestones.

If so, have at it. Give hirelings wings and ray guns.
 

Ying

5000+ hours played
Some basic thing that'd make me happy:
Add 10% movement speed to hires/pets/summons per druid past life (beyond it's current perk); so they can keep up with me.

Add my reaper HP to hires (this one might be questionable as the devs might not want them to perform well there, but many are way too squishy even for r1 with exceptions of newer gold seals like Teal). But I'd really like my arti dog to be functional in the content I'm running.

Put HP and/or movement speed to hire buffs into augmented summoning.

Give all hires faster cast times; when they sit there confused trying to use a mass cure/heal and don't get a cast off, it's annoying.

Make hires take reduced damage from certain environmental effects like lava/etc. So when they path thru stuff like the fools they are they don't die instantly while I try spamming the teleport to me function.
All of this stuff is standard in ARPGs like Last Epoch. It works really well, and more importantly it's *fun*. Current hirelings have a much higher frustration factor than fun factor, even with the ultimate edition hirelings.

Hirelings will continue to be a red-headed step-child of DDO until there's a full top-to-bottom revamp, along with the release of a universal tree for it. Bandaids aren't going to solve the problem.
 

Kintaya

Active member
All of this stuff is standard in ARPGs like Last Epoch. It works really well, and more importantly it's *fun*. Current hirelings have a much higher frustration factor than fun factor, even with the ultimate edition hirelings.

Hirelings will continue to be a red-headed step-child of DDO until there's a full top-to-bottom revamp, along with the release of a universal tree for it. Bandaids aren't going to solve the problem.
Just need to give them some form of scaling based on the player.
A universal tree where you can select which of your stats the hirelings scale off. Say "hireling spellpower scales off 100% melee power" or "hireling melee power scales off 25% highest spellpower". Just the entire tree "hirelings get X based on player's Y" and some static hireling boosts.
Add to that some form of reaper point scaling. Like hires get 1/3 of your reaper bonuses.
Adjust the numbers so that you can't easily solo quests on R10 with a hire army.
And that's already a pretty solid bandaid.

Ideally full revamp, including AI. But that'd be very difficult and time consuming.
As is - hirelings are just lever pullers, some trappers. And the occasional "ok, let's top off in between fights" cleric/fvs.
 

Toede

Well-known member
There's really no excuse for permanent gold seal hirelings to not just assume the same level as the player along with bumps in abilities, stats, etc. If SSG is going to charge a premium price, they should be providing a premium product.

Also there is no reason at all to deliberately make it harder for people soloing R10 with hires. Using hirelings is already inherently more difficult than a group of actual humans (theoretically) so who cares? If people can manage it and that's what they want to do, don't stand in their way. SSG needs all the paying customers it can get.
 

NightHiker

Well-known member
Also there is no reason at all to deliberately make it harder for people soloing R10 with hires. Using hirelings is already inherently more difficult than a group of actual humans (theoretically) so who cares? If people can manage it and that's what they want to do, don't stand in their way. SSG needs all the paying customers it can get.
After all the talk about soloing with hirelings on r10 (which I admittedly started by posting that video), I'd like to make something clear:

Even though I can solo many, if not most, of the current regular quests on r10 difficulty, and occasionally like to do so for the challenge (and also to learn the quest the best as I can, since on r10 if I make one mistake I'm dead), I don't do it on a regular basis, because since the caster damage nerf on r8+ it just takes too long to do so, with all the hireling management on top of it. For me, I find r8 offers the best balance between risk and reward - but for most people that will likely be even lower.

Whatever the end difficulty is, what I see is that adding this sort of hireling/pet/summons support we've been discussing may allow players that, for whatever reason, won't or can't play regularly on full pugs or static groups, to up their difficulty a little bit. Maybe going from playing on just Elite to r1, or from r2 to r4, for example. Either way, it will help them gather more reaper xp and then maybe open up their ability and desire to play on reaper pugs, which may be something too daunting for most at first thought.

In any case, once again I thank everyone who came in open minded and offered constructive criticism and suggestions. In the end, I'd like to think we all want to help make this game better for all types of players.

Cheers,
NH
 
Last edited:

droid327

Well-known member
Here's what hirelings need:

- Better AI. Without an AI overhaul, you're just treating leprosy with band-aids

- Improved stats/scaling to modern values. They should get at least partial scaling in Reaper to keep pace with mobs. The idea is to make them difficulty-neutral, not to make them relatively stronger.

I think those two things are all they really need to be as relevant as they should be. Once that happens, we can start talking about a Summoner class etc.



Here's what hirelings dont need:

- Power creep. Additional channels of bonuses available to everyone would become multiplicative with however many hires/summons/pets you had out. That means someone with a full party of buffed-up Gold Seal hires would be stupidly OP, and that becomes blatantly P2W.

- More of them. Same issue as above, you create a multiplicative-scaling balance issue every time you add a new bonus, or a new hireling. If you limit Gold Seals to one at a time, then you're more free to expand the offerings.

Thats why hirelings are so hard to balance now...if you make them balanced individually, then they become OP in full groups. If you balance them for full groups, then they're too weak individually.
 

Guntango

Well-known member
As mentioned repeatedly in this thread, I doubt the developers have the resources to make significant changes to hirelings while struggling to meet the milestones for releasing new content. After the Great Tumble Debacle of 2024, I think we let devs focus with eyes on new content and maybe revisit breaking the hireling system completely and then rebuilding it with tape and hammers for 2025.
 

Toede

Well-known member
If it isn't OP to invite five other players to your group then it can't possibly be op to use 5 competently functional hirelings, assuming there ever would be any.
 

droid327

Well-known member
As mentioned repeatedly in this thread, I doubt the developers have the resources to make significant changes to hirelings while struggling to meet the milestones for releasing new content. After the Great Tumble Debacle of 2024, I think we let devs focus with eyes on new content and maybe revisit breaking the hireling system completely and then rebuilding it with tape and hammers for 2025.

I dont think the issue with Tumble was man-hours or ability to execute their design as intended

I think it was just having a bad design and not communicating with the players. That's their one major failing, and the reason they waste so much development time and effort. They just need to announce their intended changes BEFORE they start actually working on them, so that we can tell them why its a bad idea, and help them find a better way to spend their time.

I'd have faith in their ability to overhaul hires successfully, as long as they had a good idea what to shoot for. I just dont have faith in their ability to make good design and balance decisions on their own, and so we get a lot of wasted time and unrealized potential in designs like the Deck.

If it isn't OP to invite five other players to your group then it can't possibly be op to use 5 competently functional hirelings, assuming there ever would be any.

You're supposed to get stupidly strong with a full party of players, because that's 6 players' worth of strength and skill and progress. Thats why raids are balanced so much tougher than soloable quests.

You're not supposed to be as strong as 6 people when you're just by yourself. The game is not supposed to play itself for you, which is essentially what a full group of OP hires would be, and the difference between 5 hires and 5 players.
 

Toede

Well-known member
You're supposed to get stupidly strong with a full party of players, because that's 6 players' worth of strength and skill and progress. Thats why raids are balanced so much tougher than soloable quests.

You're not supposed to be as strong as 6 people when you're just by yourself. The game is not supposed to play itself for you, which is essentially what a full group of OP hires would be, and the difference between 5 hires and 5 players.
So then what you're really saying is the ability to solo with hirelings itself is what you think is OP. Sorry but as soon as they started adding and selling hirelings that became a moot point, if it was ever one to begin with. You don't like the idea of soloing with hirelings, don't do it. Simple.

Playing the game with hirelings isn't nearly as easy as you seem to think it is. Give actual humans some more credit.
 

droid327

Well-known member
So then what you're really saying is the ability to solo with hirelings itself is what you think is OP. Sorry but as soon as they started adding and selling hirelings that became a moot point, if it was ever one to begin with. You don't like the idea of soloing with hirelings, don't do it. Simple.

Playing the game with hirelings isn't nearly as easy as you seem to think it is. Give actual humans some more credit.

The ability to solo with hires is not OP. Thats what hirelings are for - to fill the gaps in your build (usually healing) so that every build is able to play without requiring another player

The ability to take a build that can already solo with hires, and push higher skulls by stacking additional NPCs, is what the problem is. Hirelings are meant to complete your build, not to vastly empower it, and certainly not to define your build (at least until they add an intentional summoner class).

And its not moot right now because stacking gold seals right now is prohibitively expensive, for relatively little benefit. If you change that by making gold seals more accessible and/or more powerful, then you are creating a major balance issue, where there really isnt a problem with it right now.
 

NightHiker

Well-known member
Again, thanks to all who offered constructive criticism.

If you're against this or don't think it will or should ever happen, instead of continuing to post nothing but the same, repetitive contrary opinions that addd nothing to the discussion, maybe it would best serve your interests to keep quiet and let this thread die. Just a suggestion. :)

Cheers,
NH
 

Kintaya

Active member
You're not supposed to be as strong as 6 people when you're just by yourself. The game is not supposed to play itself for you, which is essentially what a full group of OP hires would be, and the difference between 5 hires and 5 players.
5 hires are better than 5 players when you get laglocked. Because they'd still be doing things, just like mobs.
Otherwise, even with full scaling (which is a bad idea regardless, it should only be partial scaling) AI is stupid and reactive. Players are proactive (no comment on the other part). Reactivity of hirelings means they can't hit their temp hp abilities (unless they're explicitly on their hotbar for you to press); they won't pre-cast heal over time on the tank as the tank is going in, before tank takes dmg; etc.
Raw dps and hp pinata is the only thing full-scaling would achieve for hirelings. And that's not a good thing. But that's the overall "difficulty scaling" in this game already: make you do less dmg, make mobs do more dmg.

Overall hirelings are a crutch for under-populated servers. Wouldn't need them if we had less servers (aka more people per server).
Summon spells and pets are altogether a different topic though. They are part of a class functionality. And those maybe should get full scaling.
Summon spells should be uncontrollable (like today), but powerful in order to make them at least situationally useful. You also can't have a party of you + 5 summons. So that limits the impact. And lack of control means you might get into tricky situations, that you wouldn't find yourself in w/o a summon.
Pets realistically should get pretty high scaling and be controllable like today. Because they're part of class functionality. In PNP druid with a pet is like having 2 players. Full scaling pets would turn those into FotM builds (until inevitable nerf into oblivion). But they should scale pretty well.

I'd put it something like this:
Summon Spell: highest scaling, but lack of control to offset
Pets: variable scaling based on player class: 2 level arti dip shouldn't give you an op dog just because of scaling, but a lvl 20 arti dog should be fairly competent in its own right. But not to the point where pet builds are FotM. You still need to build a good you in order to get a decent pet.
Hirelings: some scaling to make them a bit more useful, but not to the point where "i'd rather have 5 hirelings than 5 pugs"


Either way, as Gunga mentioned - it's all a moot point. Hire/summon/pet rework is not currently on the agenda. There's bigger fish to fry.
 

droid327

Well-known member
Why? Why is it an issue? Explain.

Because if they're not free, you're creating a strongly P2W scenario, where those who spend the money to unlock all the hires have a huge advantage over those who dont. Its an entire new layer of progression that many simply wont have access to, since they cant spend money like the whales.

If they are free, then its not P2W anymore, but you're creating a different problem where they become de facto required, because everyone can access them and there's no tradeoff to do so. At best, that waters down the importance of your actual build and your skill at playing it, because instead of your build choices representing, like, 90-100% of your total solo efficacy, its only maybe 50-60%, because the other 40-50% are just plug-and-play NPCs that are going to be the same for every build. Its homogenizing.

"But if you dont like hires, then just dont play with them!"...well that wont be an option anymore once they start balancing new content with the assumption you have full hires. Just like its not really an option to skip, e.g., Sentient filigrees in Legendary content now, because its balanced for those who do.

At worst, you create a balance issue where summoners are grossly OP compared to every other build, and everyone just migrates to the summoner meta - and like I described above, summoners are way harder to balance than non-summoners because every small bonus to summons you stack on gets multiplied by every summon you can have out at the same time
 

Ying

5000+ hours played
I dont think the issue with Tumble was man-hours or ability to execute their design as intended
I dont want to think about how many meetings and man-hours were wasted with the Tumble revamp. The experimental tumble was a cool idea that got out of hand. Devs could have simply turned off the experimental portion and be done with it, so they could focus on something impactful for the game. Easy for me to say that as someone on the sidelines quarterbacking their decisions. But that's the perception I have after watching this whole thing escalate into a WOMBAT: waste of money, brains and time.
 

Toede

Well-known member
Because if they're not free, you're creating a strongly P2W scenario, where those who spend the money to unlock all the hires have a huge advantage over those who dont. Its an entire new layer of progression that many simply wont have access to, since they cant spend money like the whales.

If they are free, then its not P2W anymore, but you're creating a different problem where they become de facto required, because everyone can access them and there's no tradeoff to do so. At best, that waters down the importance of your actual build and your skill at playing it, because instead of your build choices representing, like, 90-100% of your total solo efficacy, its only maybe 50-60%, because the other 40-50% are just plug-and-play NPCs that are going to be the same for every build. Its homogenizing.

At worst, you create a balance issue where summoners are grossly OP compared to every other build, and everyone just migrates to the summoner meta - and like I described above, summoners are way harder to balance than non-summoners because every small bonus to summons you stack on gets multiplied by every summon you can have out at the same time
It can't be P2W when the free alternative, playing with other people, is still there and is better. I think the hireling paywall is ridiculous to begin with though.

Hirelings are always going to be weaker than an actual player, no matter how many boost abilities they give in trees or how accessible they make them. There's no way that could not be true. Regular players bring entire trees full of abilities, not to mention their very real working brains to react to situations that programming cannot match. And that person who devoted abilities to making their hireling stronger, sacrificed by not making themselves stronger instead, unlike those other real players.

People who want to group and ignore hirelings are going to do so, and players who want to ignore other players and use hirelings are also going to do so. Nothing at all within the realm of reasonable development is going to change that, nor should it.
 
Top