Suggestion: Spread boosts to Hirelings and summons to more Destiny trees.

[Guntango]

Hirelings are always going to be weaker than an actual player, no matter how many boost abilities they give in trees or how accessible they make them.

You been ignoring AI in the news? High likelihood that a new AI Hireling will finish the quest, eat us and steal our loot.

 

[Toede]

Oh please give me a break. AI is currently nothing more than a glorified word predictor. It won't become Skynet any time soon, I assure you.

 

[rabidfox]

You been ignoring AI in the news? High likelihood that a new AI Hireling will finish the quest, eat us and steal our loot.

More likely they'd refuse to do the quest and just draw bad art while making us do all the work.

 

[Guntango]

Again, thanks to all who offered constructive criticism.

If you're against this or don't think it will or should ever happen, instead of continuing to post nothing but the same, repetitive contrary opinions that addd nothing to the discussion, maybe it would best serve your interests to keep quiet and let this thread die. Just a suggestion.

Cheers,
NH

My man, you posted a thread on a public forum and are receiving responses. You've got a great conversation going here. There's no animosity, people are treating each other respectfully. It's not necessary to police the conversation.

 

[Col Kurtz]

My man, you posted a thread on a public forum and are receiving responses. You've got a great conversation going here. There's no animosity, people are treating each other respectfully. It's not necessary to police the conversation.

hehe, usually by page 3 its best to stop following a thread.... usually by then all the reasonable thoughts have been laid out.

here we are at page4... click

 

[droid327]

It can't be P2W when the free alternative, playing with other people, is still there and is better. I think the hireling paywall is ridiculous to begin with though.

Hirelings are always going to be weaker than an actual player, no matter how many boost abilities they give in trees or how accessible they make them. There's no way that could not be true. Regular players bring entire trees full of abilities, not to mention their very real working brains to react to situations that programming cannot match. And that person who devoted abilities to making their hireling stronger, sacrificed by not making themselves stronger instead, unlike those other real players.

People who want to group and ignore hirelings are going to do so, and players who want to ignore other players and use hirelings are also going to do so. Nothing at all within the realm of reasonable development is going to change that, nor should it.

Hirelings are not an alternative to real players, I think that's your big mistake. There is no reason that a soloist is entitled to full party play by themselves, and I say that as a soloist.

I consider it axiomatic that it's better for the game if players play it, so it's better to have six players playing it than one player plus the game playing itself

Plus, again, we soloists are already able to fully access the game solo, outside of raids. So you're not asking for accessibility, you're just asking for the increased rewards of playing higher difficulties that parties can achieve, while the game plays itself for you.

And again, balance is difficult to achieve. Giving up a little power of your own to grant that much power to five hirelings is not an even trade, and potentially makes Summoners way OP if you go all the way

 

[Toede]

Hirelings are not an alternative to real players, I think that's your big mistake. There is no reason that a soloist is entitled to full party play by themselves, and I say that as a soloist.

I consider it axiomatic that it's better for the game if players play it, so it's better to have six players playing it than one player plus the game playing itself

Plus, again, we soloists are already able to fully access the game solo, outside of raids. So you're not asking for accessibility, you're just asking for the increased rewards of playing higher difficulties that parties can achieve, while the game plays itself for you.

And again, balance is difficult to achieve. Giving up a little power of your own to grant that much power to five hirelings is not an even trade, and potentially makes Summoners way OP if you go all the way

No, my point is EXACTLY that. Hirelings are not an alternative to players and can't be.

Soloing is a fact in DDO, like it or not and it sounds like you do.

Also speak for yourself on the raids. Plenty of people have proven that even those are soloable.

I'm not asking for anything at all. You are attributing all these weird things to me. Please stop.

 

[NightHiker]

My man, you posted a thread on a public forum and are receiving responses. You've got a great conversation going here. There's no animosity, people are treating each other respectfully. It's not necessary to police the conversation.

Well, for the most part, yes. But saying in three straight posts nothing but "The devs do't have resources to do this" with different words does kinda qualify in the "repetitive criticism that doesn't add anything to discussion". So it is a bit frustrating, I got admit, and I'm only human - but you're right in that there should be no need for policing the conversation - even though this forum has become a very, very negative place.

Other than that, I do welcome actual feedback, or would not have posted this. Some people have offered some good reasons, in my view, about why this should or should not be implemented and how it should or should not be implemented. I'd love more of that than people simply saying "they won't do this", but I certainly don't have control over it.

Cheers,
NH

 

[NightHiker]

Yeah, although the balancing thing gave me pause, I ultimately agree it's not really a problem.

This does help people who will be soloing for whatever reason to get faster progression than they would playing solo just by themselves, but hirelings will never be as good an alternative for progression as actually playing on full parties. Not just because of the actual gameplay, but also because of things like buddy bonuses and so on. It's about diminishing the gap for people who can't or don't want to have access to the best option (playing in a full party), not about creating an unfair advantage.

Cheers,
NH

 

[Guntango]

Well, for the most part, yes. But saying in three straight posts nothing but "The devs do't have resources to do this" with different words does kinda qualify in the "repetitive criticism that doesn't add anything to discussion".

And what do your responses qualify as? "repetitive sales speak that doesn't add anything to discussion?"

So it is a bit frustrating, I got admit, and I'm only human - but you're right in that there should be no need for policing the conversation - even though this forum has become a very, very negative place.

Cheers,
NH

Your perspective is that it's a negative place because your idea hasn't generated the excitement that you have for it. It's still a valid idea, just perhaps not as popular as (what's left of) the rest of the forum population's opinion.

 

[NightHiker]

And what do your responses qualify as? "repetitive sales speak that doesn't add anything to discussion?"

I have specifically addressed every criticism and suggestion, but I'd say we both are entitled to our interpretations. I'll just add that one mistake doesn't justify another. That's called "tu quoque", by the way.

Your perspective is that it's a negative place because your idea hasn't generated the excitement that you have for it. It's still a valid idea, just perhaps not as popular as (what's left of) the rest of the forum population's opinion.

Of course. This forum is only a negative place because of the posts in this thread, sure. I wish I was that self absorbed (to think that was the issue).

Cheers,
NH

 

[droid327]

I'm not asking for anything at all. You are attributing all these weird things to me. Please stop.

What are you hoping to do with a full party of hires that you cant do right now already, then?

Complete quests faster? Run at higher difficulty?

The only difference between what you're asking for and what we have now is getting more rewards, and I just dont think that argument holds much water

 

[rabidfox]

All of this stuff is standard in ARPGs like Last Epoch. It works really well, and more importantly it's *fun*. Current hirelings have a much higher frustration factor than fun factor, even with the ultimate edition hirelings.

Fun really is the factor missing for me. I enjoy my ROFL stomp armies in other games where I don't have to micromanage them and hope the AI lets things go thru without glitching for a few seconds when I click their buttons.

 

[Toede]

What are you hoping to do with a full party of hires that you cant do right now already, then?

Complete quests faster? Run at higher difficulty?

The only difference between what you're asking for and what we have now is getting more rewards, and I just dont think that argument holds much water

Again, stop trying to put words into my mouth. The only thing I came into this conversation to say at first was that it was pointless to deliberately make things harder for hireling use in the name of "balance" because it is already inherently harder to play with hirelings than a full party. I didn't start the thread or ask for anything. Reading comprehension is a thing.

 

[droid327]

Again, stop trying to put words into my mouth. The only thing I came into this conversation to say at first was that it was pointless to deliberately make things harder for hireling use in the name of "balance" because it is already inherently harder to play with hirelings than a full party. I didn't start the thread or ask for anything. Reading comprehension is a thing.

Yes, but its also fair to cite balance as a reason not to make hirelings more powerful or accessible

 

[rabidfox]

Yes, but its also fair to cite balance as a reason not to make hirelings more powerful or accessible

If SSG cared about that when it came to hires, the devs could put a debuff on them as the skulls go up to make them total junk compared to players (they already showed they'll do it to casters). But outside that, there's no reason hires shouldn't be totally viable and fun for those who paid for them.

 

[Toede]

I feel that balance is not a valid argument because I think it is ultimately disingenuous. There is zero balance in this game. You have people running around with 100 past life bonuses roflstomping content.

 

[NightHiker]

Fun really is the factor missing for me. I enjoy my ROFL stomp armies in other games where I don't have to micromanage them and hope the AI lets things go thru without glitching for a few seconds when I click their buttons.

I agree. Though probably the main issue (aside from supposedly better AI and support for more than a couple of summons at a time), is that those games (meaning mmos or similar online games) treat difficulty in a different manner - there's only really one difficulty, for the most part.

Someone playing DDO on one of the lower difficulties with both hires and summons can already kinda sorta do that, even with the present limitations. Going the exact same route as in those games, even with similarly efficient AIs and a larger number of summons, may be complicated by the existence of reaper difficulty...

Cheers,
NH

 

[Ying]

I feel that balance is not a valid argument because I think it is ultimately disingenuous. There is zero balance in this game. You have people running around with 100 past life bonuses roflstomping content.

Balanced games are boring.

 

[rabidfox]

I agree. Though probably the main issue (aside from supposedly better AI and support for more than a couple of summons at a time), is that those games (meaning mmos or similar online games) treat difficulty in a different manner - there's only really one difficulty, for the most part.

Someone playing DDO on one of the lower difficulties with both hires and summons can already kinda sorta do that, even with the present limitations. Going the exact same route as in those games, even with similarly efficient AIs and a larger number of summons, may be complicated by the existence of reaper difficulty...

Cheers,
NH

That's a scaling issue on SSG's part for how hires are setup. I'm fine with hires tearing thru all sorts of easy content if it means they're solid at r1 and go downhill as things get harder (others would want other levels of success for them). But if them being good at r1 means they're too good at n/h/e (or whatever SSG wants design-wise) then the SSG should make hires/pets/summons have different scaling based off the quest difficulty so their overall effectiveness isn't hardcapped just because some folks use them on casual or normal or hard.