Swashbuckler builds - Why Hand Axes?

WielderofGigantus

Well-known member
So the most of the Swashbuckler builds I see nowadays recommend using hand axes, is there any reason why that particular weapon? As I understand it, pretty much all weapons that can be used while Swashbuckling get converted into 18-20/x3, so why are hand axes so preferred when they're just about the same as others as far as I can tell?

Is it because there's some named hand axes that don't have comparable named items in other weapon types?
 

woq

Well-known member
It's x3 multi base that can be +2'd to x5 (x6 w/ patience) while still getting as low as 15-20 with a decent enough W

The other options aren't bad either, but haxe has the best crits for swashes
 

Purr

Well-known member
It's x3 multi base that can be +2'd to x5 (x6 w/ patience) while still getting as low as 15-20 with a decent enough W

The other options aren't bad either, but haxe has the best crits for swashes
Foresters brush hook is better in heroics 15 to 20. I actually use Balizarde in epics.

Definitely an argument for kukri or some named daggers, though, if you put enough in vistani

In general I go sky pirate to forgotten axe to fbh to balizarde. We could really use a nice level 20 chase hand axe, though, or a variant of swash that uses long sword
 

Zaszgul

Well-known member
As a fuller explanation - the game here is to pair swashbuckler competence bonuses with some other class' competence bonuses. They won't stack if they are the same thing (e.g., +2 threat from swash and +2 threat from any other class), but they will work together if they are different (e.g., +2 threat from swash and +2 mult from dragonlord, to yield 18/x5 or 15/x5 with the imp crit feat).

Haxes are not the only weapon type you can mix/match between swash and other classes; you can explore what's possible with your preferred weapon type and multiclass.
 

kmoustakas

Scourge of Xaos
So the most of the Swashbuckler builds I see nowadays recommend using hand axes, is there any reason why that particular weapon? As I understand it, pretty much all weapons that can be used while Swashbuckling get converted into 18-20/x3, so why are hand axes so preferred when they're just about the same as others as far as I can tell?

Is it because there's some named hand axes that don't have comparable named items in other weapon types?
All these swashbuckling builds, they all multiclass into something with dragonlord or barbarian right?

Because those classes give +2 multiplier and swashie gives +2 threat to handaxes.
 

Kalibano

Build Designer. Having fun since 2006!
So the most of the Swashbuckler builds I see nowadays recommend using hand axes, is there any reason why that particular weapon? As I understand it, pretty much all weapons that can be used while Swashbuckling get converted into 18-20/x3, so why are hand axes so preferred when they're just about the same as others as far as I can tell?

Is it because there's some named hand axes that don't have comparable named items in other weapon types?
Just to expand on the explanations already given, if it turns out to be helpful:


Axes tend to have very narrow critical threat range, in exchange for larger critical multipliers (i.e. you crit less often, but when you do, you dish more dmg)
  • Handaxes (light): 20/x3
  • Battle Axes (heavy): 20/x3
  • Dwarven Axes (exotic): 20/x3
  • Greataxes (2-handed): 20/x3
A brief comparison with other weapon types:
  • Shortsword (light): 19-20/x2
  • Longsword (heavy): 19-20/x2
  • Bastard Swords (exotic): 19-20/x2
  • Greatswords (2-handed): 19-20/x2
Note that 19-20 (10%) is basically double the chance to crit when compared to a weapon that only crits on 20 (5%).


The Improved Critical feat adds +1 critical threat range to axes:
Improved-critical.jpg


Critical threat range
Base
> 20: Hand Axes​
Feats
> +1 feat bonus: 'Improved Critical: Slashing' (feat)​
= 19-20


Why Swashbuckler?

Short answer: it gives a rare and exceptionally large critical threat range bonus to handaxes

Details: Swashbuckler was one of the earliest revamped heroic trees, and it can be fairly certainly assumed that one of its main goals was to help boost some weapon types to be more competitive with what was, at the time, a very narrow range of weapons that were considered 'viable'

There are a couple of things that make the swashbuckling stance such an amazing option for handaxes (amongst other weapons):
  1. bonus to critical threat range
  2. Single Weapon Fighting style
  • Swashbuckling grants a +2 competence bonus to critical range to handaxes
    • the vast majority of the trees grant a +1 bonus, so +2 is a fantastic bonus per se
    • the rare trees that also grant +2 (e.g. Ravager), grant this on tier 5, which clash with a rare/large critical multiplier bonus (further below, under 'Why Handaxes')
Swashbuckling-and-Handaxes.jpg

  • This +2 competence bonus is doubled if you also have the improved critical feat = +4 threat range
    • this is very rare indeed, especially with a low requirement of only 3 bard levels and 6 action points spent in one of its class trees
    • As a brief comparison point:
      • Rogue 'Assassin': also doubles the threat range bonus granted if you have the improved crit feat, but only from +1 to +2, and it's at tier 5 (requires 5 levels rogue, min 32 action points spent, and only works for daggers)
      • Monk 'Ninja Spy': though it does NOT require the improved crit feat, it doubles the crit range bonus granted (While you are centered with any weapon other than Handwraps or a Quarterstaff). It's also at tier 5 (requires 5 levels monk, min 32 action points spent, and only works for kamas and shurikens)
Critical threat range
Base
> 20: Hand Axes​
Feats
> +1 feat bonus: 'Improved Critical: Slashing' (feat)​
Heroic enhancements/spells
> +2 competence bonus: Bard's 'Swashbuckling* [C3]' {base bonus}
> +2 competence bonus: Bard's 'Swashbuckling* [C3]' {*doubled bonus if you have the IC feat}
= 15-20

  • Swashbuckling requires wielding a buckler or nothing in your offhand, making the Single Weapon Fighting combat style pretty much a requirement.
    • One of the key benefits of this combat style is a very large attack speed bonus, and attacking super fast goes very well indeed with a weapon that crits very often
Attack speed bonus = +35%
Feats
> -10%: 'Patience'​
Combat style bonus
> +30%: 'Greater Single Weapon Fighting' (feat)
Enhancement bonus
> +15%: Gear/ Augment/ Haste spell

  • Single Weapon Fighting is strong for a secondary reason: its very high attack speed bonus offsets the attack speed penalty from the feat 'Patience', which seems to be commonly chosen for swash handaxe builds because it increases your critical multiplier bonus even more (as per section below).


Why Handaxes?

Short answer: the combination of the below lets handaxes reach a very strong critical profile (threat + multiplier) = 15-20/x6
  • a strong base value for critical multiplier
  • swashbuckling stance for exceptional critical threat range
  • trees, such as Dragonlord/Frenzied Berzerker, grant a rare large critical multiplier bonus
Details:
  • Dragonlord/Frenzied Berzerker are rare exceptions, granting a +2 critical multiplier bonus
    • The vast majority of the trees grant just +1 bonus
Critical damage multiplier
Base
> x3: Hand Axes​
Heroic enhancements/spells
> +2 competence bonus: Dragon Lord's 'Conqueror [T5]' OR Frenzied Berzerker's 'Focused Wrath [T5]'​
Feats
> +1 feat bonus: 'Patience'​
= x6

  • And ya, there are some pretty cool handaxe options out there :)
Note:
Though light picks grant the highest base critical multiplier bonus value available (x4), they only get a +1 threat range from swashbuckling (also doubled by the improved crit feat), so they don't crit as often as handaxes


Add some extra crit multiplier bonuses (e.g. on rolls of 19-20)...
Feats
> +1 on 19-20 rolls: 'Overwhelming Critical'​
Epic Destinies
> +1 on 19-20 rolls: Melee + hybrid Epic Destinies @T5​
= +2x
... and the multiplier goes up to x8


And if you crit on a 19-20 while using a special attack such as..
  • Fury of the Wild's 'Fast and Furious [T2]'
    • +30% Damage / +3 Critical Multiplier
... the multiplier goes up to x11


That should be it :) Hope I haven't gotten anything wrong, and that this helps expand on the answers already given! :)
 
Last edited:

kmoustakas

Scourge of Xaos
Just to expand on the explanations already given, if it turns out to be helpful:


Axes tend to have very narrow critical threat range, in exchange for larger critical multipliers (i.e. you crit less often, but when you do, you dish more dmg)
  • Handaxes (light): 20/x3
  • Battle Axes (heavy): 20/x3
  • Dwarven Axes (exotic): 20/x3
  • Greataxes (2-handed): 20/x3
A brief comparison with other weapon types:
  • Shortsword (light): 19-20/x2
  • Longsword (heavy): 19-20/x2
  • Bastard Swords (exotic): 19-20/x2
  • Greatswords (2-handed): 19-20/x2
Note that 19-20 (10%) is basically double the chance to crit when compared to a weapon that only crits on 20 (5%).


The Improved Critical feat adds +1 critical threat range to axes:
Improved-critical.jpg


Critical threat range
Base
> 20: Hand Axes​
Feats
> +1 feat bonus: 'Improved Critical: Slashing' (feat)​
= 19-20


Why Swashbuckler?

Short answer: it gives a rare and exceptionally large critical threat range bonus to handaxes

Details: Swashbuckler was one of the earliest revamped heroic trees, and it can be fairly certainly assumed that one of its main goals was to help boost some weapon types to be more competitive with what was, at the time, a very narrow range of weapons that were considered 'viable'

There are a couple of things that make the swashbuckling stance such an amazing option for handaxes (amongst other weapons):
  • It grants a +2 competence bonus to critical range to handaxes
    • the vast majority of the trees grant a +1 bonus, so +2 is a fantastic bonus per se
    • the rare trees that also grant +2 (e.g. Ravager), grant this on tier 5, which clash with a rare/large multiplier bonus (further below, under 'Why Handaxes')
Swashbuckling-and-Handaxes.jpg

  • This +2 competence bonus is doubled if you also have the improved critical feat = +4 threat range
    • this is very rare indeed, especially with a low requirement of only 3 bard levels and 6 action points spent in one of its class trees
    • As a brief comparison point:
      • Rogue 'Assassin': also doubles the threat range bonus granted if you have the improved crit feat, but only from +1 to +2, and it's at tier 5 (requires 5 levels rogue, min 32 action points spent, and only works for daggers)
      • Monk 'Ninja Spy': though it does NOT require the improved crit feat, it doubles the crit range bonus granted (While you are centered with any weapon (other than Handwraps or a Quarterstaff). It's also at tier 5 (requires 5 levels monk, min 32 action points spent, and only works for kamas and shurikens)
Critical threat range
Base
> 20: Hand Axes​
Feats
> +1 feat bonus: 'Improved Critical: Slashing' (feat)​
Heroic enhancements/spells
> +2 competence bonus: Bard's 'Swashbuckling* [C3]' {base bonus}
> +2 competence bonus: Bard's 'Swashbuckling* [C3]' {*doubled bonus if you have the IC feat}
= 15-20


Why Handaxes?

Short answer: the combination of the below lets handaxes reach a very strong critical profile (threat + multiplier)
  • a strong base value for critical multiplier
  • swashbuckling stance for exceptional critical threat range
  • trees, such as Dragonlord/Frenzied Berzerker, grant a rare large critical multiplier bonus
Details:
  • Dragonlord/Frenzied Berzerker are rare exceptions, granting a +2 critical multiplier bonus
    • Most trees grant just +1 bonus
Critical damage multiplier
Base
> x3: Hand Axes​
Heroic enhancements/spells
> +2 competence bonus: Dragon Lord's 'Conqueror [T5]' OR Frenzied Berzerker's 'Focused Wrath [T5]'​
= x5

  • And ya, there are some pretty cool handaxe options out there :)
Note:
Though light picks grant the highest base critical multiplier bonus value available (x4), they only get a +1 threat range from swashbuckling (not doubled by the improved crit feat), so they don't crit anywhere near as often as handaxes


Add some extra crit multiplier bonuses (e.g. on rolls of 19-20)...
Feats
> +1 on 19-20 rolls: 'Overwhelming Critical'​
Epic Destinies
> +1 on 19-20 rolls: Fatesinger's 'Blade Song [T5]'​
= +2x
... and the multiplier goes up to x7


And if you crit on a 19-20 while using a special attack such as..
  • Fury of the Wild's 'Fast and Furious [T2]'
    • +30% Damage / +3 Critical Multiplier
... and the multiplier goes up to x10


That should be it :) Hope this helps expand on the answers already given! :)
I love your formatting sir it's beautiful.
 

WielderofGigantus

Well-known member
Thanks for the responses. I didn't realize that Swashbuckler's bonuses were competency bonuses. Sounds like going Kukri with Ravager's +2 Crit Range would also be pretty viable. I'll have to look into this more.
 

Sarlona Raiding

Well-known member
Thanks for the responses. I didn't realize that Swashbuckler's bonuses were competency bonuses. Sounds like going Kukri with Ravager's +2 Crit Range would also be pretty viable. I'll have to look into this more.
You can also get the +1 multiplier from vistani knife fighter if you wanted the +2 range from ravager. Cleric Holy Sword also pairs well with Ravager/Frenzied Berzerker/Dragonlord and Paladin Holy Sword pairs well with Dragon Lord and the Dragon Lord version of Ravager.

There is also Silvanus with Mauls pairing well with Dragon Lord and Frenzied Berzerker.
 

l_remmie

Well-known member
There is the x4 handaxe from necro4 litany. Its a pain to get but i buckled so much swash with it.

You can look for any weapon with improved profiles and they'll be fine. Multiplier is slightly better than threat when you reach 15-20 anyway.
 

kmoustakas

Scourge of Xaos
There is the x4 handaxe from necro4 litany. Its a pain to get but i buckled so much swash with it.

You can look for any weapon with improved profiles and they'll be fine. Multiplier is slightly better than threat when you reach 15-20 anyway.
It's very easy to get, just buy off auction house!
 

droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
You can also get the +1 multiplier from vistani knife fighter if you wanted the +2 range from ravager. Cleric Holy Sword also pairs well with Ravager/Frenzied Berzerker/Dragonlord and Paladin Holy Sword pairs well with Dragon Lord and the Dragon Lord version of Ravager.

There is also Silvanus with Mauls pairing well with Dragon Lord and Frenzied Berzerker.

Falchion paladin with T5 Dlord gets 14-20/x4 base (105%), cf swash haxe 15-20/x5 (120%), but with full aoe

Also, endgame weapons are all base, but eXuum gives you an additional x1 (to 140%) and is a plug and play option for 20-29. Oathblade with KT also hits 14-20/x5 at L20 for pal/dlord
 
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