Terror Tank - 20 Barbarian Endgame R10 Tank
- Thread starter Yuriku
- Start date
That's correct, there is diminishing returns, though I don't recall at what point that starts?
Thank you
FatBudScream
Keeper of Kebabs
I can say it is definitly working since I'm already terrified reading all of those numbers.
Considered feeding it with kebabs for more mobs aggro ?
Considered feeding it with kebabs for more mobs aggro ?
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Shear-buckler
Well-known member
The effect of PRR is linear, there is no point where diminishing returns start.
Thank you for sharing. My tank is somewhat similar.
I use PA + Draconic for temp HP (2500 every 20s) and no fail fort saves though.
I also use 41 rav + 37 OS for more hp/mrr but at the loss of Deflect Arrows.
I use AoE LoH as a major part of my build too, so I am wearing Lindahl's belt for another 3 charges. Have you considered that?
Maybe I will try your ED setup with consecration. It sounds interesting. You dont miss Celestial Mandate for hate in raids?
I use PA + Draconic for temp HP (2500 every 20s) and no fail fort saves though.
I also use 41 rav + 37 OS for more hp/mrr but at the loss of Deflect Arrows.
I use AoE LoH as a major part of my build too, so I am wearing Lindahl's belt for another 3 charges. Have you considered that?
Maybe I will try your ED setup with consecration. It sounds interesting. You dont miss Celestial Mandate for hate in raids?
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DilemmaEnder
Thelanis Player
Linear : adjective [usually ADJECTIVE noun] A linear process or development is one in which something changes or progresses straight from one stage to another, and has a starting point and an ending point.
There are demishing returns to PRR. This graph from the wiki shows it pretty well. For more info check out their full section. PRR.
Long story short - I have played with 200 prr, 250 prr, 300 prr, 350 prr, 400 prr, 450 prr, and 500 prr. At no point do you stop taking damage.
If it were a linear progression then you would eventually hit a "0 damage taken" point. Instead it is a formula that creates a "reduction curve".
As noted in the PRR discussion on the wiki - at some point the reduction provided by increasing your PRR further is outweighed by raw HP increases. This is what it means to have dimishing returns.
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
Well not really. The effect of PRR on your EHP follows a linear equation. "EHP-factor"=1/(100/(100+PRR))=(100+PRR)/100.
This is the exact same formula as melee power and spellpower.
By that definition almost everything has diminishing returns. It's not a useful or common definition.
Do you consider melee power and spellpower to have diminishing returns in the same way as PRR do?
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Hey there, so far I haven't had any issue holding hate. I can hit enemies no problem, actually deal some nice damage. I have intimidate ar 148, throw the boom. I have an attack called hate from ravager and my melee threat gen is 580%. My average swing is 1k and crits for about 3k (which I know doesn't sound impressive dps) but as a tank is not bad. I have 4 tank toons and most of them don't deal lots of damage.
Didn't realize this until this life but you can cast consecrate while raging which is extra cool.
My heal amp is so high that healing me is really easy, my own consecrate heals me for about 850hp per tick but all of my other defenses help really reduce the damage I'm taking.
I also have the lay on hands from unyielding, but I find I use them on others more than myself. I have 4 healing hands too if I need them and I can boost my positive spellspower and heal amp by another 32 when using my divine purpose if I really need to.
Lindals belt doesn't really do anything for me personally but if you found a way to make it work for your build that's awesome!
Comparing PRR to spellpower and melee power is strange. Each point in melee/spellpower gives a static bonus, the value doesn't change. The higher the number from those stats the greater the benefit.
PRR has a curve to it and does not provide a 1 for 1 bonus like melee or spellpower after a certain point. It has breakpoints.
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
No it's not strange, it's the correct way to look at it. PRR certainly does not have breakpoints no matter how you look at it.
Each point of melee/spellpower adds +1% of base damage just as each point of PRR/MRR adds +1% of base EHP. For both stats the higher the number the greater the benefit, but also the higher the number the lower the relative benefit will be, which is what the PRR reduction curve shows.
If you increase your melee power from 0 to 100 you increase your damage by 100%. If you increase it by another 100 (to 200) you increase your damage by 50%. If you increase it by another 100 (to 300) you increase your damage by 33%. This "diminishing" relative return is true for all linear system but it is not what we generally call diminishing returns because the absolute return is always the same for the same absolute input.
An exercise to help understand this is to consider what a linear PRR formula would look like if this is not it. Do you mean that if the first 100 PRR gives 50% damage reduction the next 100 PRR should also give 50% damage reduction for a total of 100%?
Another way to explain it is that the benefit of damage reduction is not linear. Getting +1% additional damage reduction is better the more you already have. The best example is comparing going from 0%->1% damage reduction vs going from 99%->100% damage reduction. The first is marginal at best while the second makes you completely invulnerable.
This is how dodge works (and why there is a cap at 95%) and a big reason why boosting dodge is so powerful. Increasing dodge by 50% from 30% to 80% (imp. uncanny dodge) means you remove over 70% of the attacks that would have otherwise hit you.
The PRR formula factors this in and turns the increasing return into a linear return.
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I also use LoH mostly on others but have 8 charges. I find that to work very well in R10 groups without a healer. I do agree that Lindahls isnt a good item otherwise but the extra charges of AoE LoH makes it well worth it me.
I will try out consegration though as that sounds very interesting.
I dont Like gimps
Well-known member
to me the whole Prr is linear thing is like the Monty Hall problem
Idc if you are right to me its nonsensical XD
but arguably the best way someone explained it to me is from 100 to 200 Prr is 2 Hits from 200 to 300 is 3 hits from 300 to 400 is 4 hits
so essentially 100 prr allways made you survive 1 hit more
Idc if you are right to me its nonsensical XD
but arguably the best way someone explained it to me is from 100 to 200 Prr is 2 Hits from 200 to 300 is 3 hits from 300 to 400 is 4 hits
so essentially 100 prr allways made you survive 1 hit more
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
Yeah it can seem counterintuitive when you look at the damage reduction number in game. That's why I like the MP/SP comparison. Those stats are easy to understand, and PRR/MRR works the exact same way.
Maetrim of Cannith
DDOBuilder Creator
I would be interested in a copy of your build file and info on what seems to be wrong compared to live and by how much so I can track down any issues. If you open a GitHub issue, you can attach a build file to the defect pretty easily.
DilemmaEnder
Thelanis Player
I see what you are saying and in regards to effective hit points you are correct.
The break down lies in my regard of it as Damage Reduction instead of eHP. While the the DR is a Curve the eHP is linear.
As a tank, I often look at how adding PRR affects the physical damage reduction value % that is on the Character sheet. That one does climb slower and slower (diminishing returns) as you gain more and more PRR. That is what I was referencing. Whenever I see PRR, that % is the number I imagine in my head. So to turn it around to a thought about eHP is a bit strange to me. The fact that we refer to it as PRR (Physical Resistance Rating) and not eHP speaks volumes.
My DC's in game are much higher, for example my visage of terror in game is 148, on the builder it's much less, my intimidate score in the builder is wrong as well, same for consecrate.
I would be happy to go over this with you privately sometime!