Terror Tank - 20 Barbarian Endgame R10 Tank

[Shear-buckler]

I see what you are saying and in regards to effective hit points you are correct.

The break down lies in my regard of it as Damage Reduction instead of eHP. While the the DR is a Curve the eHP is linear.

As a tank, I often look at how adding PRR affects the physical damage reduction value % that is on the Character sheet. That one does climb slower and slower (diminishing returns) as you gain more and more PRR. That is what I was referencing. Whenever I see PRR, that % is the number I imagine in my head. So to turn it around to a thought about eHP is a bit strange to me.

Yes and looking at that number is what is leading to the misunderstandings you and others have about the stat. The actual effect PRR has on your survivability is captured by the EHP value not the damage reduction value, and it follows the exact same formula as MP/SP. If you look at the damage reduction value and think that the PRR stat itself has a diminishing return that MP/SP does not have you are making a mistake and are likely undervaluing the stat and even risk making things up like "breakpoints".

The fact that we refer to it as PRR (Physical Resistance Rating) and not eHP speaks volumes.

How so? That is what the stat is called, so ofcourse we refer to it as that.

 

[Nahual]

Do you find Hate > Slaughter?
No Rune Carved armour if wearing Heavy Armour?

 

[Frantik]

Just a small, and hopefully helpful, post on linearity.

In the case of, say, Melee Power, which uses a formula of type (100+MP)/100, this is a LINEAR progression.

AC is an example of a non-linear progression. I'm sitting in a train, have no idea what the formula is, but I do remember the published tables, and can see the logarithmic type relationship in my tiny mind.

The amount of damage mitigated by MRR and PRR is NOT linear.

I have no axe to grind (or spell to cast!) but maths is just maths is just zzzzzzzzzzzzzzezee!

 

[FVSHasBeenEvenMoreGutted]

no capstone/5 Harper or inquis? shame

 

[Vox]

Just a small, and hopefully helpful, post on linearity.

In the case of, say, Melee Power, which uses a formula of type (100+MP)/100, this is a LINEAR progression.

AC is an example of a non-linear progression. I'm sitting in a train, have no idea what the formula is, but I do remember the published tables, and can see the logarithmic type relationship in my tiny mind.

The amount of damage mitigated by MRR and PRR is NOT linear.

I have no axe to grind (or spell to cast!) but maths is just maths is just zzzzzzzzzzzzzzezee!

It's both linear and diminishing, depending on the context in which we view it.

Using eHP it is linear because eHP calculates vs zero defenses. Basically 100 PRR vs 0 PRR is twice as good as 50 PRR vs 0 PRR.

However, eHP is almost completely worthless as a measurement because it includes things like concealment and incorporeality, things that are reduced or completely negated in reaper & by enemies that matter such as red/purple names and raid bosses.

Comparing greater and greater values of PRR (eg steps of PRR values, 100->200->300>etc), shows there are diminishing returns. Basically the more PRR you have the less effective each point is. This is easily shown by the hyperbolic graph in the wiki, and can be worked out in a simple spreadsheet. It can never reach 100% reduction and as such can never be linear.

 

[PraetorPlato]

It's both linear and diminishing, depending on the context in which we view it.

Using eHP it is linear because eHP calculates vs zero defenses. Basically 100 PRR vs 0 PRR is twice as good as 50 PRR vs 0 PRR.

However, eHP is almost completely worthless as a measurement because it includes things like concealment and incorporeality, things that are reduced or completely negated in reaper & by enemies that matter such as red/purple names and raid bosses.

Comparing greater and greater values of PRR (eg steps of PRR values, 100->200->300>etc), shows there are diminishing returns. Basically the more PRR you have the less effective each point is. This is easily shown by the hyperbolic graph in the wiki, and can be worked out in a simple spreadsheet. It can never reach 100% reduction and as such can never be linear.

Using "prr-eHP" (i.e. eHP with just PRR and HP) is still useful! That's what tells you how many hits you can absorb (or how big of a hit you can absorb) before dying. That is linear in PRR.

 

[Bjond]

My DC's in game are much higher, for example my visage of terror in game is 148, on the builder it's much less, my intimidate score in the builder is wrong as well, same for consecrate.

One potential reason is that Insightful Tactics from gear stacks with Trance in game, but not builder; this is likely a game bug leftover from the era when all of trance stacked with everything. There are other issues with game higher than builder for tactics, but that was the main one I found.

V2 builder is also missing many stats on gear and even set-tags on some items (wiki-parse issues?). I need to forward my current list to Maetrim, but I don't think it will help your particular build discrepancies.

It's a completely different build for a different goal, but if you want healing for your group more than visage, you can build a tank on Sacred Fist; the SF is for Radiant Servant tree. One of our guild's tanks uses that style; it's amazing for healing squealing puglets while tanking.

(btw, visage is so much fun in quests, I'd only consider the SF style for a "raid only" or "mostly raid" tank)

 

[Vox]

Using "prr-eHP" (i.e. eHP with just PRR and HP) is still useful! That's what tells you how many hits you can absorb (or how big of a hit you can absorb) before dying. That is linear in PRR.

Yes I agreed with that. However this isn't how the game calculates eHP

Probably not the best example, take a rogue dodge tank. It has skyhigh eHP but can still be one hit killed by an unlucky attack, so the "effective hit points" are meaningless for that one hit that connects.

 

[Bjond]

take a rogue dodge tank. It has skyhigh eHP

Those of us that play 'em prefer the term "stochastic tank". "Dodgy" makes us sound shifty.

OTH, my dodgy tank is a shifter.

 

[Frantik]

Those of us that play 'em prefer the term "stochastic tank". "Dodgy" makes us sound shifty.

OTH, my dodgy tank is a shifter.

Stochastic is a really good term!

 

[Frantik]

It's both linear and diminishing, depending on the context in which we view it.

Using eHP it is linear because eHP calculates vs zero defenses. Basically 100 PRR vs 0 PRR is twice as good as 50 PRR vs 0 PRR.

However, eHP is almost completely worthless as a measurement because it includes things like concealment and incorporeality, things that are reduced or completely negated in reaper & by enemies that matter such as red/purple names and raid bosses.

Comparing greater and greater values of PRR (eg steps of PRR values, 100->200->300>etc), shows there are diminishing returns. Basically the more PRR you have the less effective each point is. This is easily shown by the hyperbolic graph in the wiki, and can be worked out in a simple spreadsheet. It can never reach 100% reduction and as such can never be linear.

Just a reflection on the word "twice".

"Basically 100 PRR vs 0 PRR is twice as good as 50 PRR vs 0 PRR."

Yes and no. Yes, as 100 is "twice" the value of 50, but no as 100 PRR (50% reduction) won't mitigate "twice" as much damage as 50 PRR (33.33% reduction) can.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Just a small, and hopefully helpful, post on linearity.

In the case of, say, Melee Power, which uses a formula of type (100+MP)/100, this is a LINEAR progression.

AC is an example of a non-linear progression. I'm sitting in a train, have no idea what the formula is, but I do remember the published tables, and can see the logarithmic type relationship in my tiny mind.

The amount of damage mitigated by MRR and PRR is NOT linear.

I have no axe to grind (or spell to cast!) but maths is just maths is just zzzzzzzzzzzzzzezee!

The effect of PRR/MRR follows the same linear formula as MP/SP.

Treating PRR/MRR like it has diminishing returns and dodge as linear returns will lead to making bad choices.

 

[Vox]

Just a reflection on the word "twice".

"Basically 100 PRR vs 0 PRR is twice as good as 50 PRR vs 0 PRR."

Yes and no. Yes, as 100 is "twice" the value of 50, but no as 100 PRR (50% reduction) won't mitigate "twice" as much damage as 50 PRR (33.33% reduction) can.

I believe you are confusing the non-linear PRR reduction with increasing amounts, vs the effective strength of the defenses vs zero PRR

 

[Vox]

The effect of PRR/MRR follows the same linear formula as MP/SP.

Treating PRR/MRR like it has diminishing returns and dodge as linear returns will lead to making bad choices.

Please feel free to correct my results:

(move the decimal place on damage taken % if it's easier for you to see the percentage number)

The damage mitigation strength shows that *compared to zero PRR*, higher and higher PRR is linear. This is derived from the PRR/eHP formula

The actual PRR damage reduction, from increasing PRR compared to a lower amount, is *not* linear. Therefore each additional point of PRR gives diminishing returns.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Please feel free to correct my results:

(move the decimal place on damage taken % if it's easier for you to see the percentage number)

The damage mitigation strength shows that *compared to zero PRR*, higher and higher PRR is linear. This is derived from the PRR/eHP formula

The actual PRR damage reduction, from increasing PRR compared to a lower amount, is *not* linear. Therefore each additional point of PRR gives diminishing returns.

Yes, exactly like MP/SP

 

[mikarddo]

The debate about linear or not has been done many times before. It is all about the perspective and none of you have mentioned anything new.
Plus - its off topic to the thread

 

[Vox]

Yes, exactly like MP/SP

Except you are saying it's linear, when the evidence shows it isn't.

It can only be linear when compared to zero.

*edit - I have a better idea. Show us how it is linear, that every increase is just as good an increase as the previous increase. Start from 100 on PRR and MP and go up from there.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Except you are saying it's linear, when the evidence shows it isn't.

It can only be linear when compared to zero.

*edit - I have a better idea. Show us how it is linear, that every increase is just as good an increase as the previous increase. Start from 100 on PRR and MP and go up from there.

"EHP-factor"=(100+PRR)/100. That is a linear equation.

Just as going from 100 to 110 MP only increases damage by 5% so does from from 100 to 110 PRR only increase EHP by 5%.

If 1 PRR = 1 % damage reduction you would have your definition of a linear stat, but the actual returns from the stat would not be linear at all. Going from 98 to 99 would cut damage taken in half, for example. That would be massively more impactful than going from 0 to 1, even though it reduced the same amount of "absolute damage".

 

[Frantik]

Just ask yourselves which formula is used inside DDO to determine how much damage is mitigated by PRR and then stop?

 

[Frantik]

Yes, exactly like MP/SP

Buy new glasses?