The Blonde
Catalogues Bugs
Let me clarify: I meant it is not supported thematically. Neither Kukris nor Dragonlords have that Berserker taste.
The Current State of Barbarians and THFing
- Thread starter Teh_Troll
- Start date
Teh_Troll
Master of Baiting
I'm not touching the bucket of "complications" that is Dragonlord.
But . . . a good start to balancing a lot of this stuff out is to have ALL trances apply to tactics and to-hit, not just the ones on the broken classes.
Teh_Troll
Master of Baiting
You "get" it. it's about feelings over facts, what the French would say "I don't know what."
Bliv
Well-known member
"Crush it."
Bjond
Well-known member
'Dunno; there's something inherently barbaric about all-out rage-fired roaring TWF. To misquote a popular prophet:
Welcome to my blender honey, we got bloody games!
I rather agree about kukri, but that's why the best barbarians use heavy cosmetics.
Monkey_Archer
Well-known member
I generally disagree with this premise. Monsters with AC and fortification that matters has actually been very good from a balance perspective. It partially closes the marital vs caster dps gap (definitely more work needed there though), and makes rage+PA vs precision an actual choice. Yes precision beats PA against high ac/fort targets, but PA is much stronger vs trash mobs, anything helpess, and catches up if you bring enough debuffs for bosses too.
IMO the real problem with THF is that strikethough sucks:
1) Its great in the harbor when you get swarmed by kobolds, but does very little in more challenging content when you cant just face tank swarming mobs.
2) The base attack range and swing arc is far too small to consider strikethough a viable AOE option when fighting larger sized mobs. TWF/SWF attacks like quick cutter, whirlwind and chains are exponentially larger range for no realistic reason.
3) It doesn't scale with anything. Cleaves don't scale with it, they scale with attack speed (ie SWF). Whirlwinds dont scale with it, they also scale with attack speed. Chains don't scale with it... oh right the "AOE style" cant even use the best AOE abilities... Other active attacks like sunder would in theory scale with it if those animations didn't cut your attack speed in half... Even Adrenaline, the supposed epic strike for THF doesn't scale with strikethough so you're mostly better off with quick cutter.
Stratiotis
Well-known member
SSG needs to release a Crom sentient gem narrated by our own lovable Teh_Troll...that only drops in Trial By Fire or Sorrordusk Isle.
Voice procs could be...
- Lamentations of nipples
- Origins of Small Devil Scales
- Halflings as barbar ranged weapons
- Various Crom hymnals
- Transmogrify rounding errors
Voice procs could be...
- Lamentations of nipples
- Origins of Small Devil Scales
- Halflings as barbar ranged weapons
- Various Crom hymnals
- Transmogrify rounding errors
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Oliphant
Well-known member
Bringin the transatlantic accent back!
5 Other People
all the voices in my head are my own
I want a toggle switch for THF/Barbarians that would allow today's AOEish Strike-Through, but upon boss fights it could be flipped to become a single target DPS machine (with some bonus to make the AOE trade off). Or maybe this is a feat/racial and is permanent single target DPS.
But typically any balance is single target VS multi-target melee.
An older build used a dip into Druid for winter wolf to convert the single target DPS for a THF weapon, but from reading this thread I'm guess you all want 2 nipples and not 8.
Perhaps...Your character would view nature through a strictly Darwinian lens. To you, the "balance of nature" means that winter kills the weak, predators hunt the slow, and only the strong endure. You do not pray to Crom for spells; you take care of yourself, use your primal magic to dominate your environment, and only invoke Crom's name as a battle cry or a grim curse.
But typically any balance is single target VS multi-target melee.
An older build used a dip into Druid for winter wolf to convert the single target DPS for a THF weapon, but from reading this thread I'm guess you all want 2 nipples and not 8.
Perhaps...Your character would view nature through a strictly Darwinian lens. To you, the "balance of nature" means that winter kills the weak, predators hunt the slow, and only the strong endure. You do not pray to Crom for spells; you take care of yourself, use your primal magic to dominate your environment, and only invoke Crom's name as a battle cry or a grim curse.
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Teh_Troll
Master of Baiting
Darwin? Nah, my environment adapts to me.
Grimscore_Riffstorm
Shreds Licks Way Beyond His Capabilities
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD. SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE. Oh, wait. Wrong brand of rage.
I concur, THF should feel like there is no slaughter without laughter. HORC SMASH
I concur, THF should feel like there is no slaughter without laughter. HORC SMASH
Svirfneblin
Well-known member
So this is a two handed fighting issue not just a barbarian issue right?
Is two handed fighting any better for fighters or paladins?????
I thought barbarians did not Winge the only thing that hurts them is pain.
Is two handed fighting any better for fighters or paladins?????
I thought barbarians did not Winge the only thing that hurts them is pain.
unbongwah
Well-known member
Teh_Troll
Master of Baiting
Probably, couldn't say I haven't played a THF fighter in 5 years and a THF Paladin in 10.
Underflow
Know-Nothing Know-It-All
I consistently just want an option to be able to convert Strikethrough into raw force. So you have a toggleable stance that disables strikethrough and converts it into a percentage increase in damage (at like 25% rate or something). Make it a secondary stance granted from taking Power Attack.
It makes no sense why a Barbarian or other THF build would waste time cleaving through multiple weak enemies, when they have the option to hit one target really, really hard,
It makes no sense why a Barbarian or other THF build would waste time cleaving through multiple weak enemies, when they have the option to hit one target really, really hard,
Bjond
Well-known member
It's also inherently questy and does nothing versus raid bosses -- so there's less collective creativity building on it.
Questing on THF is a bit annoying: so many critters jump around like kobolds or have ranged+melee styles that getting things to stand on top of each other for the strikethrough doesn't happen without handy choke-points; ie. gotta run 'em down one-by-one anyway.
This one irks me on all styles -- TWF's off-hand rarely gets involved with buttons, too. I'd love to see a uniform global application of style features. Attack with THF, get strike-through (always, all attacks). Attack with TWF, get an OH attack under the same button bonuses.
DDO is the land of idio(t)syncracies.
Lotoc
Well-known member
Cleaves/AoE active attacks are vastly more powerful and satisfying than strikethrough and it's lead to twohander's AoE niche being almost entirely irrelevant.
Strikethrough is just an outdated concept that's frankly less relevant for 2hf than it is for tempest ranger, largely because of the buffs to active attacks to help them stay relevant - being changed from +W to % damage shifted them heavily away from favoring twohanded weapons which usually have bigger weapon dice.
It would be better served as a gimmick stat for all weapon styles and 2hf get something else from the weapon style.
Strikethrough is just an outdated concept that's frankly less relevant for 2hf than it is for tempest ranger, largely because of the buffs to active attacks to help them stay relevant - being changed from +W to % damage shifted them heavily away from favoring twohanded weapons which usually have bigger weapon dice.
It would be better served as a gimmick stat for all weapon styles and 2hf get something else from the weapon style.
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Jack Jarvis Esquire
Well-known member
There are general problems with THF and specifically Barbs that a rebalance should look at...
1. Strike through is no longer very valuable. It's "unique" value has been undermined by active attack options It should be replaced by a modest boost to doublestrike that uniquely breaks the 100% DS limit. Say 2/4/8/12% for the feat line. With the perfect THF feat limited to a flat 5%.
2. Pure Barbs have no access to a to hit trance. Trances either need to be added to the barb trees or to hit bonuses added to universal trees trances. The former would be more interesting IMO.
3. THF weapons are inferior to the benefits from OH options either in SWF or in TWF mode. The opportunity cost of going THF is too high to make sense. The ability to have an orb ("It's my shiny totem!") in the OH, unlocked as a free feat at L18 Barb, would help redress this balance.
4. Enable Precision to work when raging. Make the decision to go Precision Vs PA at least an option.
1. Strike through is no longer very valuable. It's "unique" value has been undermined by active attack options It should be replaced by a modest boost to doublestrike that uniquely breaks the 100% DS limit. Say 2/4/8/12% for the feat line. With the perfect THF feat limited to a flat 5%.
2. Pure Barbs have no access to a to hit trance. Trances either need to be added to the barb trees or to hit bonuses added to universal trees trances. The former would be more interesting IMO.
3. THF weapons are inferior to the benefits from OH options either in SWF or in TWF mode. The opportunity cost of going THF is too high to make sense. The ability to have an orb ("It's my shiny totem!") in the OH, unlocked as a free feat at L18 Barb, would help redress this balance.
4. Enable Precision to work when raging. Make the decision to go Precision Vs PA at least an option.
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kmoustakas
Scourge of Xaos
The problem is not barbarians per se.
The problem is THF is aoe and at cap you want single target damage.
So until we get a tree that switches up strikethrough for single target damage (maybe a new archetype?) at cap in r10s and raids THF will be worse than both SWF and TWF.
With that being said, leveling THF is a hoot and I love it.
The problem is THF is aoe and at cap you want single target damage.
So until we get a tree that switches up strikethrough for single target damage (maybe a new archetype?) at cap in r10s and raids THF will be worse than both SWF and TWF.
With that being said, leveling THF is a hoot and I love it.
1. Removing strikethrough and giving a damage boost to THF would create some new losers, like Tempest Rangers and hand-and-a-half builds. Not a bad idea, but needs consideration for the others.
2. What would a barbarian trance look like? We already established it's too game-breaking to have a STR trance that works with rage when Dragonlord was added. Are we talking about a CON trance?
I'm still of the opinion that trances should be dropped entirely, the fact that the have-nots either split their builds to get one or have discussions about how they're weak because they don't have one natively is a sign that they're too centralizing.
3. Final Fantasy 11 had this same conundrum and solved it by adding the new item category of "grips" that would go in the offhand slot. Imagine taking the wooden shaft of your greataxe and wrapping or encasing it in something easy to grip which is also magically enchanted. Just another idea to consider.