The Current State of Barbarians and THFing

[Lotoc]

If anything Barbarians should probably have a Con trance in one of their trees, perhaps it could be introduced with revamps around a barb archetype.

 

[kmoustakas]

There is only one, singular issue with Barbarian, and it's that there is no bare-chest cosmetic.

I have to point you have just won this thread.

 

[Jaspar]

I consistently just want an option to be able to convert Strikethrough into raw force. So you have a toggleable stance that disables strikethrough and converts it into a percentage increase in damage (at like 25% rate or something). Make it a secondary stance granted from taking Power Attack.

It makes no sense why a Barbarian or other THF build would waste time cleaving through multiple weak enemies, when they have the option to hit one target really, really hard,

So THF are the best at AOE and also the best at single target.

Ironically still using QC for both.

 

[Alternative]

Can I get uncanny dodge on a paladin?

 

[Lotoc]

Can I get uncanny dodge on a paladin?

Inquisitive Paladin is a build.

 

[Shear-buckler]

I generally disagree with this premise. Monsters with AC and fortification that matters has actually been very good from a balance perspective. It partially closes the marital vs caster dps gap (definitely more work needed there though), and makes rage+PA vs precision an actual choice. Yes precision beats PA against high ac/fort targets, but PA is much stronger vs trash mobs, anything helpess, and catches up if you bring enough debuffs for bosses too.

IMO the real problem with THF is that strikethough sucks:

1) Its great in the harbor when you get swarmed by kobolds, but does very little in more challenging content when you cant just face tank swarming mobs.

2) The base attack range and swing arc is far too small to consider strikethough a viable AOE option when fighting larger sized mobs. TWF/SWF attacks like quick cutter, whirlwind and chains are exponentially larger range for no realistic reason.

3) It doesn't scale with anything. Cleaves don't scale with it, they scale with attack speed (ie SWF). Whirlwinds dont scale with it, they also scale with attack speed. Chains don't scale with it... oh right the "AOE style" cant even use the best AOE abilities... Other active attacks like sunder would in theory scale with it if those animations didn't cut your attack speed in half... Even Adrenaline, the supposed epic strike for THF doesn't scale with strikethough so you're mostly better off with quick cutter.

Not only that, there is also not really that much value in sustained AoE DPS.
Trash mobs have very little HP compared to bosses after level 20. That leads to a situation where burst DPS to clear low HP trash mobs and sustained single target DPS for high HP bosses is key.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

So THF are the best at AOE and also the best at single target.

Ironically still using QC for both.

See that's the point though. Melee range AOE isn't improved by Strike Though due to widely available QC and other active AOE attacks being better anyway. Every melee build can be great at melee range AOE, so comparatively penalising THF ST makes no sense balance-wise. Strike Through for THF is relatively poor in advantage compared to the benefits of TWF and ST style options.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

There are general problems with THF and specifically Barbs that a rebalance should look at...

1. Strike through is no longer very valuable. It's "unique" value has been undermined by active attack options It should be replaced by a modest boost to doublestrike that uniquely breaks the 100% DS limit. Say 2/4/8/12% for the feat line. With the perfect THF feat limited to a flat 5%.

2. Pure Barbs have no access to a to hit trance. Trances either need to be added to the barb trees or to hit bonuses added to universal trees trances. The former would be more interesting IMO.

3. THF weapons are inferior to the benefits from OH options either in SWF or in TWF mode. The opportunity cost of going THF is too high to make sense. The ability to have an orb ("It's my shiny totem!") in the OH, unlocked as a free feat at L18 Barb, would help redress this balance.

4. Enable Precision to work when raging. Make the decision to go Precision Vs PA at least an option.

1) While I did just post about why strikethough sucks, I don't think it should be removed at this point. I'd much rather see it supported properly. For strikethough to actually be good, we would need good single target attacks that actually allow for it. Currently all the best active attacks (quick cutter, whirlwind, adrenaline, sunder, slicing blow, hamstring, etc...) either don't strikethrough, or have a terrible slow animation when used THF. If adrenaline could strikethough and the sunder-style animations hit twice like they do for TWF (and the animation actually appears to), then THF would immediately start looking more attractive.

2) I don't think the lack of trance is an issue. Many other classes also don't have trances. Barbarians instead have weapon bond (+5 to hit), fury (+x stacks to hit), rage (+10ish to hit) and multiple ways to debuff AC. The obvious trance option, if it were to be considered is constitution, which would instantly be a bigger balance problem than dragonlord strength trance already is. I guess the question would be what nerfs would barbarian players accept to get such a trance? If I were to make a bet, I'd say we would only get this as an archetype that most likely replaces frenzied berzerker...

3) Not sure about THF with orbs, but I agree that being the weakest style with the weakest gearing options is a major problem.

4) Rage+PA vs Precision is currently well balanced, I see no reason to change that.

 

[Bravgji]

So THF are the best at AOE and also the best at single target.

Ironically still using QC for both.

THF still has less stats and augs

 

[Bjond]

I'm still of the opinion that trances should be dropped entirely

Drop or grant a universal trance to every character; same either way, but I like it. There's an extra benefit to dropping it: insightful attack, damage, and tactics becomes useful on gear. Giving expansions different stats to offer instead of merely tiny bumps is good.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

1) While I did just post about why strikethough sucks, I don't think it should be removed at this point. I'd much rather see it supported properly. For strikethough to actually be good, we would need good single target attacks that actually allow for it. Currently all the best active attacks (quick cutter, whirlwind, adrenaline, sunder, slicing blow, hamstring, etc...) either don't strikethrough, or have a terrible slow animation when used THF. If adrenaline could strikethough and the sunder-style animations hit twice like they do for TWF (and the animation actually appears to), then THF would immediately start looking more attractive.

2) I don't think the lack of trance is an issue. Many other classes also don't have trances. Barbarians instead have weapon bond (+5 to hit), fury (+x stacks to hit), rage (+10ish to hit) and multiple ways to debuff AC. The obvious trance option, if it were to be considered is constitution, which would instantly be a bigger balance problem than dragonlord strength trance already is. I guess the question would be what nerfs would barbarian players accept to get such a trance? If I were to make a bet, I'd say we would only get this as an archetype that most likely replaces frenzied berzerker...

3) Not sure about THF with orbs, but I agree that being the weakest style with the weakest gearing options is a major problem.

4) Rage+PA vs Precision is currently well balanced, I see no reason to change that.

1) We'll agree to disagree there. Strikethroughs value is now so undermined by other options it wouldn't be missed at all IMO. YMMV of course.

2) Barb to hit has always been an issue. Running well geared at 120 STR when raged was an issue when I ran it back when Vecna was the new pack, and things have gotten more challenging since then. To be fair I might be a bit out of date in terms of any more recent Barb power creep, and if so maybe it's not the issue it used to be. As for nerfs (assuming for arguments sake I've not missed a beat there), I don't think that's necessary beyond the opportunity cost of whatever the trance option replaces in the tree (and there are certainly options to remove some rubbish in there). Its only providing increased to hit over current universal trance options available, after all. If con is an OP issue, and I agree it might be, make it Int or Wis.

4) if they're balanced as you suggest, and I don't necessarily disagree, I don't see the problem with giving barbs the same options to choose one or other option just as others can then.

 

[Wrensel]

A few things to help Two-Handed fighting.

* Bring back Damage Reduction on monsters. Most of them have broken DR (reducing 1 on Legendary quests). Having notable DR would be a slight bonus for slower but harder hitting attacks from Two-Handed Fighting.
* Give more reactive on-hit effects to foes. From things like taking damage per weapon strike, attribute damage on a failed save per weapon strike, or even a potentially controversial 1% chance to trip the attacker on a weapon strike. Give some monsters their rock-paper-scissors defenses against fast attackers.
* On Two-Handed Fighting, with Perfect Two-Handed Fighting, have a strike that only hits a single target to translate the Strikethrough value into higher physical damage. Something like every 10% Strikethrough increases weapon damage by 1% for those single target strikes. This would help make the weapon style perform better on boss targets, makes higher Strikethrough values desirable, and also not needing the annoyance of a toggle.
* Consider making Strikethrough also increase the hit range of weaponry. Most Two-Handed Weapons are something like 2.2 meters of reach. Maybe add 0.2 meters for each Two-Handed Weapon feat? It would be a notable way to improve the unique identify of the weapon style and make the Strikethrough easier to utilize.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

1) We'll agree to disagree there. Strikethroughs value is now so undermined by other options it wouldn't be missed at all IMO. YMMV of course.

2) Barb to hit has always been an issue. Running well geared at 120 STR when raged was an issue when I ran it back when Vecna was the new pack, and things have gotten more challenging since then. To be fair I might be a bit out of date in terms of any more recent Barb power creep, and if so maybe it's not the issue it used to be. As for nerfs (assuming for arguments sake I've not missed a beat there), I don't think that's necessary beyond the opportunity cost of whatever the trance option replaces in the tree (and there are certainly options to remove some rubbish in there). Its only providing increased to hit over current universal trance options available, after all. If con is an OP issue, and I agree it might be, make it Int or Wis.

4) if they're balanced as you suggest, and I don't necessarily disagree, I don't see the problem with giving barbs the same options to choose one or other option just as others can then.

1) Strikethrough is very strong for leveling and solo play. It just doesn't scale into endgame or group play. It would absolutely be missed in those contexts.

2) I see barb to hit issues as correct balance. Barbs have some of the highest defence and damage potential of all melee classes. If they didn't miss there would be almost no reason to play anything else. I'll double down on con trance is a fair trade for the archetype that drops berseker.

4) PA+rage matches non-rage+Precision fairly closely. Rage+Precision would be much stronger than non-rage+PA. The builds that actually need help are the non-raging THF builds that ironically are usually better off with precision despite getting double the bonus from PA.

 

[Teh_Troll]

Can I get uncanny dodge on a paladin?

There's a good argument that some other classes should get a defensive clickie, start you own thread.

 

[Teh_Troll]

Inquisitive Paladin is a build.

The Temu Barbarians are bad enough, we do not discuss those abominations in Crom's sacred temple.

 

[somenewnoob]

As a proud thf horc barbarian, and a person who has seem the original Conan well over 100 times, I approve this message.

You are the wellspring from which I flow.

 

[Gimp]

For reference for those not enlightened in the ways of CROM:

The Core Philosophy

• Be self-reliant. Crom gives men courage at birth.
• Do not beg. He ignores prayers for aid.
• Expect nothing. HE SENDS ONLY DOOM AND DEATH.

Actions that Please Crom

• Fight fiercely. He loves a strong warrior.
• Endure suffering. Bear hardships without complaining.
• Rely on steel. Trust your own sword arm.
• Keep moving. Survive by your own strength.

What to Avoid

• Temple building. Crom requires no houses of worship.
• Ritual sacrifices. He cares nothing for gifts.
• Whining. Lamenting your fate angers him.

And when in doubt rage more and hit harder!!!!

 

[Underflow]

So THF are the best at AOE and also the best at single target.

Ironically still using QC for both.

Yes.

Indeed, I want the build that requires you to have no shield, have less augment slots, less affixes, be in the thick of things, and uses both hands to do the most damage. It requires you to take and use Power Attack, thus meaning you lose Precision and Epic Precision, cutting your to-hit by 10%, plus whatever hit penalty you get from Power Attack.

As for the actual thread: How about level 15 Barbarians being able to double rage, stacking the effects again? I also wouldn't be against them changing Rage's Strength Bonus to be percentage or adding a percentage damage bonus based on barbarian level. Flat stats are great, but it can't compare to Trances.

(I hate trances, they are so, so bad for the game)

 

[Kyloz]

Been playing THF barb at cap for a few weeks now, sick of the grazing. It just feels awful. I'm sorry but I dont want to run a tiny handaxe and do SWF on a barb. Hoping with the balance pass they take a swing at to-hit requirements. It just feels silly how I can barely get grazing hits in older r10 quests (myth drannor and back) but running the new quests on r1 is a struggle.

 

[Teh_Troll]

Been playing THF barb at cap for a few weeks now, sick of the grazing. It just feels awful. I'm sorry but I dont want to run a tiny handaxe and do SWF on a barb. Hoping with the balance pass they take a swing at to-hit requirements. It just feels silly how I can barely get grazing hits in older r10 quests (myth drannor and back) but running the new quests on r1 is a struggle.

I'm close to 200 to-hit and it's not THAT Bad at that level. It's fine in groups.