The failure that is Arcane Trickster

[norriskwondo]

Perhaps this is counterbalanced by the fact that the AT will only get up to 4th level spells. Their breadth of spell choices will be extremely limited overall compared to other spellcasters.

so more like the actual d&D class. I have to ask, aren't they straying quite a bit from the 3.5 version they attempting to keep this game in line with?

 

[KirThalos Ravencrest]

Since when is Wizard feat starved. Don't they have 12 feats? Unless you're playing EK as a sorcerer, which you can, then you would be feat starved

At 1st level, 5th level, and every 5 levels after that, with a wizard specific feat only for metamagics afaik. they are about as starved as you can be

 

[Jummby]

At 1st level, 5th level, and every 5 levels after that, with a wizard specific feat only for metamagics afaik. they are about as starved as you can be

Starting with the title of your your post, there is just negative reaction to what anyone comments on it, unless they hate too.

Instead of posting something on a new archetype that isn't out yet as a FAILURE in the title, why not ask the community what they would change while addressing what you have issues with and why.

 

[norriskwondo]

At 1st level, 5th level, and every 5 levels after that, with a wizard specific feat only for metamagics afaik. they are about as starved as you can be

I think that's a matter of how you prioritize your feats and when you take them. My experience with wizard has been really good with taking feats, but maybe that's because I plan them out in advance. I could see how people would run into problems if they took feats willy nilly taking metas on random feat options instead of wizard bonus feat options.

 

[cocopufff]

This ^^^^^ too many people that post here are focused on high reaper at cap. Just have some fun with the tree and enjoy.

This would make a lot more sense to me if there WAS a caster type that was good at cap. Casters in general fall off a cliff as you're getting into epics, and the fact that there are huge problems with both wizards and non-druid divine casters makes adding a new caster with the same problems a bit annoying.

 

[droid327]

This would make a lot more sense to me if there WAS a caster type that was good at cap. Casters in general fall off a cliff as you're getting into epics, and the fact that there are huge problems with both wizards and non-druid divine casters makes adding a new caster with the same problems a bit annoying.

Druids are Primal casters, just to underscore the point

The Divine spellbook is probably the worst of the three at L9. IDK why they get spells that barely do more than a Fireball as their capstone nukes, when Arcane gets far more potent spells, and Primal gets some really nice spammable high-tier spells

 

[cocopufff]

The Divine spellbook is probably the worst of the three at L9. IDK why they get spells that barely do more than a Fireball as their capstone nukes, when Arcane gets far more potent spells, and Primal gets some really nice spammable high-tier spells

Not to mention, the Exalted Angel tree is just abysmal--seriously, why is it offering things like Flaming Sphere and Sunbolt as SLAs in an epic tree? It also basically requires cross-speccing into fire and light, which is problematic since playing jenga with one spell power type is bad enough. Of course, divines get better spells in negative energy, but then it's like "have fun not damaging 50% of mobs".

Wizards are just frustrating because your options include speccing into negative energy (again with the "not damaging 50% of mobs, only it's more like 25% since they get an undead strip) and speccing into force (and having basically 0 ED support). Or speccing into an element and being a strictly worse sorcerer. Basically the only reason to pick wizard is because it's a better EK, but also, EKs aren't good.

 

[Underflow]

Arcane Trickster might have a small niche use as a robes dodgetank.

Since they can take the T5 Thief Acrobat, as well as get a stacking +15% Dodge chance from their tree (which only requires consistently hitting things with spells), they can multiclass 2 Monk to pick up Ocean stance and the low hanging +3 Dodge Cap from Henshin + Ninja Spy.

Is it good? Probably not, but they have a ton of raw dodge to work with, while still having enough AP to go into Thief-Acrobat, or double down on Arcane Trickster for its very very low investment 'okay' damage. Since Caster Staves are super common, you could build something that fills a similar role to Warlock, except scaling off of Sneak Attack Dice instead of Blast Dice.

 

[KirThalos Ravencrest]

Starting with the title of your your post, there is just negative reaction to what anyone comments on it, unless they hate too.

Instead of posting something on a new archetype that isn't out yet as a FAILURE in the title, why not ask the community what they would change while addressing what you have issues with and why.

How is saying wizards are feat starved is a negative reaction? It's just a factual statement. Compare it to a Human Fighter, or even Paladin, and Wiz is lacking.

 

[Tharikk]

What is wrong with a fun leveling class? "End Game" is not the only way to play the game and most people do not hang out at end game because there are only so many interesting raids, you get your reaper points pretty fast so that purpose doesn't last that long, and most of the game is in fact about leveling.

So if this class is good for leveling, it will have its role.

That's right, the journey is the reward

My for myself, play for the game, not for the finish.

 

[Lazuli]

Druids are Primal casters, just to underscore the point

The Divine spellbook is probably the worst of the three at L9. IDK why they get spells that barely do more than a Fireball as their capstone nukes, when Arcane gets far more potent spells, and Primal gets some really nice spammable high-tier spells

Because in PnP, Divines aren't designed to be nukers. That's not their role. They're very good at buffing, healing, and excellent martial hybrids thanks to their own buff spells, with select good CC/Iks spells. Turbine/SSG has tried to force them into a role that doesn't suit their original design without modifying their spells.

A large part of this game's problems stem from forcing you to be a specialist. You have to be either a caster or a martial; you can't be a viable hybrid. It's sad how they've stifled build diversity by always pushing for specialization.

 

[Lazuli]

AT:
- Won't be amazing for levelling (limited AoE, no bonus move speed, average survivability)
- Lacks the raw stats to be viable DPS at cap
- Lacks the spells (lv 4 spells+ dice)/spell power/crit chance/element type (no mrr/ele vuln) to be an effective nuker
- Lacks the CD on the SLA's to be an effective DC caster at cap
- Lacks good cc spells to DC cast at cap

What role does it fill? It's average during levelling, and falls far behind everything else in epics. At best, it's a splash for the imbue, which isn't a great look for a new archetype.

I agree. By itself, it has no role. It is an archetype for multiclass, and surely in this sense some synergies can be obtained, perhaps some even op. But by himself? Zero role.

 

[Celestrata Bloodsong]

I actually have a smol question for the folks in this thread, that maybe some folks could help with.

I think the one thing I haven't read or seen a lot of in the feedback is what would be cool or exciting. If this archetype isn't exciting to you, what would be, and why would it be exciting? What would you do with it? I'm curious because it could help add new details to everything else being said here.

 

[Wisefreelancer]

How is saying wizards are feat starved is a negative reaction? It's just a factual statement. Compare it to a Human Fighter, or even Paladin, and Wiz is lacking.

What?

What are you expecting to use all these feats for?

A pure wizard gets 12 feats in the 1-20 bracket (13 if human). A pure bard, pure rogue, pure sorcerer, pure druid, pure favoured soul (etc) all get 7, or almost 50% less. A paladin only gets 7 too, but can get extra feats from its enhancement trees I guess (not 5 useful ones though).

Wizards have many, many problems. Being feat-starved as a caster is not one of them.

 

[vik]

what would be cool or exciting.

I'd go with Psionicist, hands down. New spells would go a long way towards more interest. And there are not many DnD games that have them.

 

[Eoin-1]

Having the Mage Hand look like a Mage Paw if you're in animal form would be cool. Not sure there will be many Arcane Trickster Druids, so probably not worth the cost.

The Mage Hand being able to interact with puzzles could be nice. Probably some out there that would be nice to solve while being under stealth... probably would also break a lot of scripts.

 

[Lazuli]

I actually have a smol question for the folks in this thread, that maybe some folks could help with.

I think the one thing I haven't read or seen a lot of in the feedback is what would be cool or exciting. If this archetype isn't exciting to you, what would be, and why would it be exciting? What would you do with it? I'm curious because it could help add new details to everything else being said here.

Oh, a dev intervening! Thanks for doing it, it's pleasantly unexpected.

For starters, what would be fun is if it were a hybrid that worked. Hybrids don't work in DDO, and won't work until you stop pushing for massive specialization, filigrees don't support both weapon damage and spell dc, and while the caster stats on the gear are so divided. Read this post of mine to understand it better: https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/u78-lamannia-arcane-trickster-preview.25640/post-362984

The second thing I see is that it is a martial (rogue) archetype with level 4 spells that you want to turn into a full spellcaster. For that, why didn't you do it as a wizard archetype? AT, as a rogue archetype, needs to be a martial (and receive better martial support in the tree) with fun spell tricks. Not a caster who handles spells better than an archmage.

As spell tricks: be able to attack with spells without breaking stealth, create distracting illusions, buffs that matter (haste needs to matter!), be able to help to the party with stealth, sneak attacks on spells (but not spells that are better than those of a full caster, but normal spells to which sneak attacks are applied) or spells delivered with martial attacks, be able to apply debuffs that matter. He shouldn't be a better IKer than a full caster, but rather have low-level spells that he uses in unusual ways, and a selection of useful buffs.

 

[canicus]

1 suggestion I heard (this is not my idea) would be to have something in the tree that would add sneak attack dice based on how many metamagic feats you have.

For me, give the class a multiselector for an aoe melee/ranged attack. for melee at least a frontal cleave, if not just whirlwind (maybe make so that if you already have the whirlwind feat you also get +1 threat) and have the ranged aoe work with all ranged weapons like the paladin one. I would suggest this be in tier 3 or 4(at the hightest)

 

[Zvdegor]

I actually have a smol question for the folks in this thread, that maybe some folks could help with.

I think the one thing I haven't read or seen a lot of in the feedback is what would be cool or exciting. If this archetype isn't exciting to you, what would be, and why would it be exciting? What would you do with it? I'm curious because it could help add new details to everything else being said here.

Me also play hybrid melee arti. Just want to use Tactical Detonation because it is a cool spell with good effects. But as a melee focused build it is impossible to gather high enough dc tho I have all the sources I can get DC from.
TD dc works quite well till R6 then it become very unreliable. Lots of effort for nothing.
I cant even use high fire and force spell power, there is not enough room in the build for that so I just skip it. The only effect I use is the knock down effect.
Hybryd builds already done their tradeoffs. They need more support or some kind of Specialty feat which helps to get sufficient dc and/or Spell power.
Runearm damage is in the same boat. As a melee I have to take 3 Metamagic Feats + Have to put points into Machritechnic to get basicly the same dps with runearms.
This is punishment and wont motivate me to use runearm at all. I've already removed the runearm charge toggle icon from my hotbar.
I dont say give extra dc or sp for hybryd builds free but a Specialty feat could solve some problems, or as OP wrote extra dc or sp could use a skils or melee power.
Or remove the Specialty feat pre requisites for the spell dc. There is no room for 3 extra feats just to be able to get Specialty DC feat.
Artificers have the repair skill which is good for what? Selheal only. Repair Spell power good for what? Selfheal only.
So imagine that I want to get good runearm dps and high Evocation dc. That cost me 6 extra magical feats + Specialty feat and I still got no spellpower covered. Waisting 6 feats only for dc and metamagics just ruins any melee hybryd build. And that is a big problem.

 

[l_remmie]

It is not even out out, how will we know if it's good or bad yet?

Is it on Lamannia? Even if it is and people messed around with for a while, Lamannia isn't the finished product.

Lol, like ssg makes any meaningful changes after the lammania preview. They never read the fora.