The failure that is Arcane Trickster

[Underflow]

Arcane Trickster needs Spell Critical Chance in its tree.

Right now, the only Spell Critical Chance it gets is in its T5, 5% from a multiselector.

As a spellcaster that only uses one damage type (Force), this is disgusting. Even Dragon Disciple gets 6%, and I still consider that tree unviable for casters.

If you want to make a Caster Tree, it needs to have the ability to increase its spell damage.

Also, AT is the only caster tree that Rogues get, meaning that they'll be forced into Feydark (which at least does more for them than it did for Dragon Disciple), but if you only have a single caster tree, the amount of spellpower you get needs to make up for it.

 

[Xgya]

So, things that would make me excited to play a Trickster.
Tricksters are first and foremost HYBRIDS. But in DDO, those just aren't very viable.
The best "hybrid-like" things we have are Imbues, and those just aren't enough.

I'd want something like a spell-on-hit (or, even better, a spell-on-sneak-attack) option.
Debuffs in DDO aren't as useful as they are in PnP, else I'd just try to cripple the enemy with a debilitating affliction before going in for the kill.

Finally, I'd want some hybrid-specific things. Things to do with itemization that would be quasi-useless to a non-hybrid.
Have them use the higher of Force Spellpower or Melee/Ranged Power as the multiplier on Sneak Attacks.
Have them gain bonuses to attacks based on their spell DCs.

I'll end this by saying that the best Tricksters in 3.5 were NOT Rogues. They were Wizards that sacrificed a few levels of spellcasting in order to gain some trickery and trapping.

On a more positive note, the one thing that DOES get be excited is the "sneak attack dice on spells". That's new, and certainly worth looking at.

 

[Lotoc]

I actually have a smol question for the folks in this thread, that maybe some folks could help with.

I think the one thing I haven't read or seen a lot of in the feedback is what would be cool or exciting. If this archetype isn't exciting to you, what would be, and why would it be exciting? What would you do with it? I'm curious because it could help add new details to everything else being said here.

Overall Arcane Trickster seems very specialized for force damage which is perhaps the most poorly supported damage type in terms of gearing and systems.
It has the worst spells overall
the worst scaling (prr/mrr debuffing far into the negatives is basically the endgame meta and force does not benefit from said debuffs - extra ironic because shadowdancer debuffs prr/mrr and yet a shadowdancer caster won't benefit)
the worst epic destiny options and the worst overall gearing/past life support (force is missing the 9% crit chance that is covered by either the Energy Criticals epic past life or insightful spell lore which Radiant and Void itemisation get. Also force caster filigree options are rather... I can hardly even think of any.)

What would get me excited about Arcane Trickster is the potential of a pass on force damage.

 

[h46av8r]

Most hybrids experience significant power/effectiveness drop offs once they hit epic levels due to lack of hybrid-friendly gearing and Epic Destiny abilities/scaling.

@Kimbere is touching on the root cause problem. You can create very viable hybrid builds lots of ways, especially now with mixed magics, where you can take the fighting style feats and metamagics, dip into various trees to ensure you have ability score to hit/dmg, battle trance, and haste boost, etc. Even immunity stripping. All the bells and whistles. But ultimately when you get to Epics, you can't get three caster EDs and three melee or ranged EDs so you end up taking two of one and one of the other. Same with filagrees - you can't take filagrees for main stat and melee power and spell power and spell crit.... So ultimately you end up, if truly trying to go hybrid, with good but not great spell power and good but not great melee power and good but not great DCs, etc. For example, I love my Wild Dragon build https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/wild-dragon-build.16960/ and it is great for soloing through mid-reaper end game but at the end of the day is not top tier DPS or top tier insta-kill or top tier CC....

 

[woq]

I actually have a smol question for the folks in this thread, that maybe some folks could help with.

I think the one thing I haven't read or seen a lot of in the feedback is what would be cool or exciting. If this archetype isn't exciting to you, what would be, and why would it be exciting? What would you do with it? I'm curious because it could help add new details to everything else being said here.

I think i've put my thoughts down in the lamannia thread. I think almost all of the building blocks already follow what would be cool and exciting. Magehands are cool; Sneak ambush on spells is cool; the dodginess is cool, the mixed magics is cool.

What would be cool:
1) More support for force damage - either in form of force vulnerability, higher numbers in general - mostly on the crit% front. My suggestion in Lamannia thread after playtesting was for the T3 node "Meddle with Reality" to grant 20% force vulnerability instead of 25% fortification reduction.
2) More illusion/enchantment trickery, stealth speed. Sneaky trickster class with no stealth speed is a travesty! Some form of effective Holding spell is critically missing from 18/20 cores or their spell book.
3) T5 of Trickster is currently a bit lackluster. In T5, the hybrid multiselector is not conducive to hybrid play, and as such the caster hybrid node should be tied to the melee and ranged ones. So you pick between a hybrid melee or hybrid ranged, not ranged OR melee Or caster. The cooldown of Presto! is also high for what it does at lvl 12+. 30 second cooldown for something blocked by deathblock??? Warlocks in Soul Eater get a similar single target instakill on 8 second cooldown (Finger of Death) for comparison and nobody thinks instakill warlock is op.
4) More defences in T5. My suggestion was that instead of knocking down an enemy when they cast a spell at you with mage hand, it'd instead act as spell absorption against enemy spells on a cooldown. Extra hand knocking down spells. Could work like Magus null magic aura but it'd be more thematically correct for it to behave more like Spell absorption from items that recharges on cooldown - this would be a completely new and cool effect fitting for Tricksters.
5) More AoE - some of the missiles need AoE support.

What they *need* is support for intelligence to hit and/or damage outside SLA. Requiring this class to go to at least two universal trees (either harper + vistani, or harper + feydark, or if ranged you just can't justify t5 in this tree anyway) is not good. Sure, you have intelligence to damage as an option from lvl 12 SLA, but you *can't* take that without losing a colossal amount of what makes trickster cool in the first place - the SLAs that work with disable device.

There is a big amount of illusion of choice going on with trickster - people say its op for it to have heals, that its op CC, that it has int support. It has some of that, but each of those locks the other out. You look at the final product after taking the int to damage and heals, you lose all functionality CC and force damage. Youre not really a caster, you're a terribad melee with subpar healing. You take the CC, and you lose your force damage spells and int to damage.

A trickster in the end is sorely missing one more bag of tricks and direction. It has many paths and options but if you actually took it to Lamannia, you'll notice it can't really do that many things at all.

A druid has more tricks in its bag than Trickster does.

 

[Oliphant]

Making hybrids work:

Perhaps a clicky that boost your spell power with the same types that come on equipment that martial DPS gear tends to lock out, maybe with a little extra kicker. It has a certain graphic pop/explosion on the character that boosts spells for 10 seconds, then after 10 seconds it does a pop and provides some kind of martial boost for 10 seconds, like maybe sneak dice or similar that responds to threat reduction, with a different looking pop/explosion. making it clear which mode you are in

 

[Oliphant]

^^Maybe the final 10 seconds puts you in a shadow form that helps you do sneak attacks without breaking something like an invis state.

Could also have a different clicky that does martial first then magic boost, with some other kind of flavor attached to it. Like maybe that clicky makes your martial attacks beat down DCs, SR and MRR a bit during an initial phase.

 

[Oliphant]

Problem with hybrids is you have two modes that are both kinda mid that have some mutual exclusivity or opportunity cost with each other, adding up to less than what you expect of either as specialization.

 

[Xgya]

3) T5 of Trickster is currently a bit lackluster. In T5, the hybrid multiselector is not conducive to hybrid play, and as such the caster hybrid node should be tied to the melee and ranged ones. So you pick between a hybrid melee or hybrid ranged, not ranged OR melee Or caster. The cooldown of Presto! is also high for what it does at lvl 12+. 30 second cooldown for something blocked by deathblock??? Warlocks in Soul Eater get a similar single target instakill on 8 second cooldown (Finger of Death) for comparison and nobody thinks instakill warlock is op.

Small correction (though I agree with the general sentiment)

Compare Presto to Swashbuckler's Coup De Grâce that requires setup to work.
It also works on many things normally immune to death effects, so it's more like a MUCH higher DC Hurl Through Hell.

 

[Pretty Good Old One]

On the thought of making hybrids work:
giving the different hybrid classes different variations of the old Offhand Versatility:
On vorpal melee hit, next spell cast is automatic crit.
or
On vorpal ranged hit, next spell cast is automatic crit.
or
On spell crit (or make lower percentage spell vorpal range), next melee attack is automatic crit.

Give a timer so it is not held in reserve too long, but let it last long enough that the player can hold on to it for a few seconds and decide how to best use it and combine it with the spell or special attack of their choice. Even if their average output is 80% of a focused character, the targeted burst damage would make up for some of it.

 

[droid327]

On the thought of making hybrids work:
giving the different hybrid classes different variations of the old Offhand Versatility:
On vorpal melee hit, next spell cast is automatic crit.
or
On vorpal ranged hit, next spell cast is automatic crit.
or
On spell crit (or make lower percentage spell vorpal range), next melee attack is automatic crit.

Give a timer so it is not held in reserve too long, but let it last long enough that the player can hold on to it for a few seconds and decide how to best use it and combine it with the spell or special attack of their choice. Even if their average output is 80% of a focused character, the targeted burst damage would make up for some of it.

Yeah they've shelved a lot of old mechanics that I like better than the ones they kept...

Old Confront any Foe: a triple hit crit-boosted frontal AOE on a 2s CD but charge based, letting you have a big burst for champs and bosses or if you just need a lot of mobs dead fast

Old LD: huge Cleaves with long CDs that had a % reset on other Cleaves, letting you set up fun chain-bursts when RNGsus liked you. Especially now that Cleaves have been devalued a lot by WW/QC

The short-lived OV was another good mechanic they should revisit too. On spell crit should be next weapon attack is auto crit and +2 crit mult, I think. Just getting *a* crit isnt that valuable.

 

[Pretty Good Old One]

...

The short-lived OV was another good mechanic they should revisit too. On spell crit should be next weapon attack is auto crit and +2 crit mult, I think. Just getting *a* crit isnt that valuable.

Good point on adding a crit multiplier modifier. It would balance it out more.

With that in mind, is there a way that giving some hybrid characters a way to trigger a vorpal hit could be reasonable? Maybe instead of every spell crit triggering it (with cool down), it would require 3 or so spell criticals to charge it up. It would fit in well with a magic missile spammer.

 

[Elves United]

You could play Arcane Trickster as a hybrid but why would you?

It's a

Magic Missile spammer ( tier 5 AT Tier 4 Feydark? )
or
Acrobat ( tier 5 Acrobat Tier 4 AT )
or
Mechanic ( tier 5 Mechanic Tier 4 AT )
or
Inquisitive ( tier 5 Inquisitive Tier 4 AT )

A hybrid would be a build that is either forced to use one kind of attack to enable the other attack ( needs to punch them in order to be able to cast ) or gains some benefit from switching attack modes ( hitting them gives you spellpower , casting at them gives you melee power ) or simply does not have enough magical attacks and finds himself using other attack forms while on cooldown.

None of these apply to arcane trickster. As a caster AT has access to more than enough magic missile and magic missile-like spells and SLAs to go through a rotation and not worry about cooldowns. Nothing in the enhancement tree gives an iota of power from switching from one attack form to another. And as the gear and feats will be nuker focused switching to another attack form will lose DPS.

 

[Veldrina]

I actually have a smol question for the folks in this thread, that maybe some folks could help with.

I think the one thing I haven't read or seen a lot of in the feedback is what would be cool or exciting. If this archetype isn't exciting to you, what would be, and why would it be exciting? What would you do with it? I'm curious because it could help add new details to everything else being said here.

Honestly a working hybrid.

I've made some suggestions earlier without traction so I guess they don't work but still...

I'd like the class to be:
- able to focus on part casting stats and part non-casting and still be competitive. Eg use spellpower to scale melee damage.
- I'd like the hand to be more prevalent. Eg cast spells shen melee attacking of vice versa (your hand attacks when you cast spells)
- I'd like spell DC to be usable across the full kit. Not only a few disable device DC on sla. This should apply to all spells
- I'd like lots of illusion spells. It's a trickster.

 

[szczekus]

I don't believe we can have working hybrid in the game (EK is closest to this concept). But i don't see it as problem, this game just can't work as tabletop D&D - where you can play as wiz/fighter (or perhaps in newer editions like just some melee-caster archetype) who can in one round cast fireball then in next round swing sword when you are on low level adventure. In this game you want to damage 50mln HP raid boss as fast as you can, so usually you will focus on one dmg source for better result.

I wrote that already in thread about AT preview - i think strong side of AT is focusing on one thing (lets say in like 70%) - so it is more like fully caster (but of course it is semi caster due to small spellbook).

Main mechanic to support weapon-dmg hybrid route is that core SLA use DD rank as DC, so no need to incorporate caster gear for more DC.

I like this archetype - did a few quests on legendary r1 on Lam on first life toon and i see some potential in this class, even if it is not r10 questing build. There were lot of feedback so i want to see next preview. What i personally would like to see:
- more synergy with stealth mode (faster movement in stealth, more options to use stealth in quests, working and useful stealth, some interaction between stealth and spellcasting like posibility to stay stealth while casting and maybe some bonuses from stealthy spellcasting)
- way to use imbue or maybe rather bonus imbue dice for casting (like addition to Ambush dmg)
- some debuffs in kit, so it will be useful for they own dmg (i mean specifically debuffs for own spell dmg) and for party members
- Selection of some enchantment/ilusion CC options in cores SLA
- some AoE dmg source is needed for questing
- stronger capstone so it will be rewarding to stay pure AT

 

[Mindos]

you can't get three caster EDs and three melee or ranged EDs so you end up taking two of one and one of the other.

Maybe they will give us something new, idk, call it "Twist of Fate" fill a custom 4th ED tree and then sell it to us all over again.

 

[Rage]

Iactually have a smol question for the folks in this thread, that maybe some folks could help with.

I think the one thing I haven't read or seen a lot of in the feedback is what would be cool or exciting. If this archetype isn't exciting to you, what would be, and why would it be exciting? What would you do with it? I'm curious because it could help add new details to everything else being said here.

An archetype that’s completely based around stealth.

Like very little offense/DPS… whole lot of ninja vanish.

 

[Rull]

I actually have a smol question for the folks in this thread, that maybe some folks could help with.

I think the one thing I haven't read or seen a lot of in the feedback is what would be cool or exciting. If this archetype isn't exciting to you, what would be, and why would it be exciting? What would you do with it? I'm curious because it could help add new details to everything else being said here.

Mostly, I think it's exciting already, it just needs number tweaking.

However, here's some food for thought:
Let the fourth level divine theft option be Holy Sword.

It takes 12 levels of trickster and 21 points invested; surely that won't be more broken than the current options for holy sword. and it's the kind of trickery that I'd expect from the class.
An AT could then use their tier5 selector to take the 20 spellpower 4% critchance option instead of the crit, to keep the hybrid dream alive. And, giving up the core4 is quite an investment, so it's not a must-take either. Using another stolen spell and taking the crit in tier5 remains a solid option.

 

[SpartanKiller13]

I actually have a smol question for the folks in this thread, that maybe some folks could help with.

I think the one thing I haven't read or seen a lot of in the feedback is what would be cool or exciting. If this archetype isn't exciting to you, what would be, and why would it be exciting? What would you do with it? I'm curious because it could help add new details to everything else being said here.

For me if you want to make AT an effective hybrid there needs to be better results for using both martial & caster stuff.

Here's three distinct options that would make Mage Hand feel more meaningful to me, instead of being a low-damage minor debuff with a long cast time:

1. Mage Hand does not interrupt your actions at all (like Intim or Action boosts). It can be small still, but then there's skill expression and it doesn't hurt your rotations. I'm just picturing an intense duel then suddenly your Mage Hand pokes them in the eye - hilarious!
2. Speed up Mage Hand a lot and give it a bigger impact (it has to be worth stopping what you're doing as a martial build, so a shorter stop is better)
3. Automate Mage Hand, probably with an iCD (whenever you hit an enemy with a physical attack or single-target spell there's a % for Mage Hand to also hit them - this also allows Pin Point to eventually clear Nightshield/Shield via Magic Missiles since multi projectiles = higher % chance)

I would also like to see stacking rewards for using both spells and martial output, similar to EK or Arcane Warrior. Instead of T5 Good With My Hands giving +10 MP, have it give +2 MP every time you use a Mage Hand, stacking up to 15 stacks. Give them a BIG on-hit Force Vulnerability debuff (like +5% per stack, up to 20 stacks).

Or just fun small things - have Catcher Glove give a +100% Doubleshot boost to your next attack after catching an arrow (with a 10s iCD). Have Presto give you a temporary buff or some other shock and awe effect (+10% Force Crit Chance? +1 Sacred Crit Multiplier? 1 second AoE Otto's Irresistible centered on you?).

 

[Xgya]

Automate Mage Hand, probably with an iCD (whenever you hit an enemy with a physical attack or single-target spell there's a % for Mage Hand to also hit them - this also allows Pin Point to eventually clear Nightshield/Shield via Magic Missiles since multi projectiles = higher % chance)

I like this idea the best.
You could even have it proc on Sneak Attack, but with a decent iCD.
Give the tree innate ways to enable those while your tank's busy, and you're done.

We either need a Wizard that has tricks to disable traps and approach enemies with stealth, or a Rogue with magical tricks that help him being a Rogue.
Stopping to cast spells is a thing the Wizard would do, for sure, but SSG decided that Arcane Trickster would be a Rogue Archetype, so it needs magical tricks that help it be a Rogue.