The failure that is Arcane Trickster

[Shambhala]

I personaly think that Arcane Trickster is more a fun to play than actually usefull. They don't excel in anything.


Won't change the META ("most efficient tactic available") at all....
But will be fun to play, kinda frustating with numbers on dmg (Like the dragon disciple spells), and will lose every kill to another one shoter/instakiller, like previsouly said

 

[shopach]

This is the second time I see this comparison, and it remains unfair.
For one, the applicability of Presto surpasses Finger. Works on constructs and undead, at least. Also has no SR check.
The DC is also ridiculously easier to get.
This is more of a no-attack-roll, (working) Ranged version of Coup De Grâce (because the DC on both abilities will be similar), that requires absolutely no setup, or a T5 replacing a level 15 ability, Hurl Through Hell (that's also on a 25 second cooldown)

I agree that both the AP and mana costs could be given a second glance, but the cooldown is fine for the effect given, if we compare it to similar abilities and not Finger of Death.

Comparing 2 things doesn't imply they need to be exactly the same to be a fair comparison point.

The point I was making is, this T5 enhancement is the only unique draw to AT's T5, and it does not succeed at being an effective reason to use the tier 5 from AT.

Killing 1 target every 30 seconds, no matter how easy it is to build around or optimize the DC, is just a neat trick, not a significant part of how the build functions.

If they want AT tier 5 usage to be limited to only builds that go 20 AT, then they've nailed it.

What they have built here is ultimately going to be extremely niche and probably largely unused by the player base, like so many other archetypes have been, without some substantial tweaks.

Personally I really enjoy when new content has cool ways to build around and incorporate into new ideas, but AT seems relegated to 20 AT, and that build is going to be mediocre at best.

If Presto was 15 second cd, you could at least use it reliably about once per pack, which would be a bigger draw. I maintain that a chain instant kill (with a nice chain poof animation and sound) would be super fun and interesting, and something people would salivate over, rather than say "oh yeah this is neat".

Ultimately that's what game design is all about: creating concepts that excite, not just things that are ok and technically work.

 

[DBZ]

You see a single shiradi pass we haven't a reason to take it epic

 

[Trexoncoin]

I think it may have potential as a casting class with focus on missile spamming and instakilling. Shadow dancer and shiradi for destinies (weird, double rainbow), deep gnome for race (extra PK sla). Illusion dc should be workable on R10 even capped at 4th level spells. Flash freeze, soundburst and heal options give it a bit of flavor. The hybrid nature of the archetype is just clunky.

But that is the problem. It will literally only work ONE way as a legit caster, and even then, it would be behind all casters outside of wizard for actual DPS. Even Stormcaller is going to be better dps with way more utility. This class was like, we have to small gaps that are missing, lets make a class that doesn't actually fill the gaps at the high end, but on paper fills the holes.

 

[Vox]

Killing 1 target every 30 seconds

Laughs in Dragonlord

But seriously it should be stronger.

Perhaps add in a unique debuff when used vs a red/purple name, such as allowing vulnerability to stack higher than 20. You know, the *only* debuff that helps Arcane Trickster's force damage.

 

[SpeakerForTheDead]

I actually have a smol question for the folks in this thread, that maybe some folks could help with.

I think the one thing I haven't read or seen a lot of in the feedback is what would be cool or exciting. If this archetype isn't exciting to you, what would be, and why would it be exciting? What would you do with it? I'm curious because it could help add new details to everything else being said here.

i would say the main thing people want is to have things balanced so that their favorite builds can be useful. right now spellcasters need a little bump, but mostly hybrid chars i think need the biggest buffs. I've heard a few people say Hexblade would be a nice epic tree, maybe focus on something like that, that'll improve several builds at once. right now pure casters just have way better stats than hybrids it seems. maybe put in more skills that buff you over time when you 'cast a spell'/'make an attack'. make it so that once they've been combat for a bit they become comparable (or even a little higher if done right) in DCs and/or Dmg to the casters. maybe even some higher dmg/dc effect spells or SLAs at close range that are designed for melee range chars. maybe a universal imbue dice thing that's based off of different spellpowers, kinda like the wiz/sorc gets. SLAs that give you big bonuses for a few secs. one thing i would love to see for a hybrid tree is being able to gain back mana on your attacks. make it fun, useful, unique, but most importantly make it balanced with the other main types so that people will actually want to have them as endgame chars. thank you for your time.

 

[Fizban]

Let me start off by saying this matter of factly. EK is a terrible enhancement tree, we all know this. Yes some of us enjoy playing it, but we all know the single biggest weakpoint it has. Being a split melee/caster enhancement. You either do subpar melee damage with mid accuracy to hit and also fail your spell DC's because you had to take combat oriented feats on an already very limited feat class. OR you focus purely on melee, and forgo all spell casting, and still do less damage than any other melee, or you forgo all melee and do all caster, in which case, why bother with EK?

Arcane Trickster is going to fall into the exact same trap as EK is in. I don't know why SSG would give us a class like this, knowing full well it will not perform well outside of heroics. It's just become another past life class that will never see play outside of a 1-20 life.

SSG needs to fix the melee/caster hybrid class formula, before releasing more of them.

Quick edit, since I thought of this just now:

Just like how Vistani can use Melee or Ranged Power for their attacks, let hybrids use Spell DC or Accuracy, which ever is higher, for both spells and attacks. Watch people actually enjoy hybrids then.

I disagree; I think this will be a fun class to play. I like playing trappers of any kind.

 

[Jasparius]

Just wanting to check in. The viable builds will be:
5 DL/15 AT - melee, roar, DL template
3 Arty / 17 AT - Inquis template
?

Or whatever you want if just getting lives because anything can go 1 to 20/30 on R1 ?

 

[droid327]

Just wanting to check in. The viable builds will be:
5 DL/15 AT - melee, roar, DL template
3 Arty / 17 AT - Inquis template
?

Or whatever you want if just getting lives because anything can go 1 to 20/30 on R1 ?

12 AotS/8 Trickster is probably going to be workable too as a force/fire caster. Need to farm the hell out of Sun/Moon augs though for Sneak, Pact, and Blast.

I dont like AT for Inqui, but if you're just running PLs then Inqui is fine for AT

There's probably a Ki Bolt build there somewhere, ask saekee about that

3 AT/17 Wiz is probably fairly synergistic for Wiz DC casting (wont lose caster levels, wont lose L9 spell, Evasion, can race-swap Golems etc.) but Wiz DC caster isnt great to begin with

 

[rabidfox]

12 AotS/8 Trickster is probably going to be workable too as a force/fire caster. Need to farm the hell out of Sun/Moon augs though for Sneak, Pact, and Blast.

It's giving up 4d8 blast, 2d6 pact, 5% crit, 30% spell crit damage for 1d6 force per sneak die at 50% scaling. It might be fun for leveling, but that split is gonna be a lot weaker than 20 warlock.

 

[droid327]

It's giving up 4d8 blast, 2d6 pact, 5% crit, 30% spell crit damage for 1d6 force per sneak die at 50% scaling. It might be fun for leveling, but that split is gonna be a lot weaker than 20 warlock.

Its giving up 2d8 blast and 30% crit dam (TS core 5-6) and 5% crit (SE C5). AotS gets Ultimate Pact Attune for the other dice.

So with a full set of easy Sneak Dice sources (4 class 3 artifact 8 SDancer 3 Racial 4 Scion = 22) thats equivalent to 11d6 Blast dice = 8.5d8 Blast dice

Does it automatically win? No, but its definitely a significant additional chunk of damage when you attack, and might be better in some situations (like early-life builds that cant leverage 30% crit dam as effectively)

Also, it gives Warlock access to CLW for leveling. Which isnt as nice as Close Wounds SLA from /2 FvS, but its a nice extra on top of Evasion and the extra damage.

 

[rabidfox]

AotS gets Ultimate Pact Attune for the other dice.

Oh right.

It'd be fine for leveling and probably a fun all around build. But that 5% crit and 30% crit damage is big at cap, a huge chunk of warlock's damage doesn't come from blasts but from things like mantle procs, ruin/gruin, dripping effects, etc. So that 5% crit/30% crit damage eats into a lot of stuff. 12/8 would be fine for low skulls/farming/fun setups, but it's a big tradeoff for that; especially on a class like warlock that's already hurting for damage.

 

[Jasparius]

Oh right.

It'd be fine for leveling and probably a fun all around build.

Which is the big problem. I can think of 30 fun levelling builds and 30 more builds which will level fine but I dont enjoy. Plus a hundred more which could work with effort and may or may not be fun.

Finding builds that genuinely contribute at cap is what really matters. They dont have to be Shuri or Cold Sorc, but being a genuine contributor in raids and high reaper dungeons is important.

I will leave the high reaper raid discussion for those who do that.

 

[Contessor]

Let me start off by saying this matter of factly. EK is a terrible enhancement tree, we all know this. Yes some of us enjoy playing it, but we all know the single biggest weakpoint it has. Being a split melee/caster enhancement. You either do subpar melee damage with mid accuracy to hit and also fail your spell DC's because you had to take combat oriented feats on an already very limited feat class. OR you focus purely on melee, and forgo all spell casting, and still do less damage than any other melee, or you forgo all melee and do all caster, in which case, why bother with EK?

Arcane Trickster is going to fall into the exact same trap as EK is in. I don't know why SSG would give us a class like this, knowing full well it will not perform well outside of heroics. It's just become another past life class that will never see play outside of a 1-20 life.

SSG needs to fix the melee/caster hybrid class formula, before releasing more of them.

Quick edit, since I thought of this just now:

Just like how Vistani can use Melee or Ranged Power for their attacks, let hybrids use Spell DC or Accuracy, which ever is higher, for both spells and attacks. Watch people actually enjoy hybrids then.

You assume trickster will be a melee/caster hybrid? I feel like it will be more caster oriented, especially as you gain levels. There is some interesting stuff with trickster. Like stealing a magic ability from another caster. Having a big hand to help move things at a distance or attack an enemy in melee range, from a distance. I hope it is more like in my head, than what you expect.

 

[Elves United]

You assume trickster will be a melee/caster hybrid? I feel like it will be more caster oriented, especially as you gain levels. There is some interesting stuff with trickster. Like stealing a magic ability from another caster. Having a big hand to help move things at a distance or attack an enemy in melee range, from a distance. I hope it is more like in my head, than what you expect.

Spell Thief is way too situational, way too weak to be anything other than fluff. But trickster is like bard. Not a hybrid. A choice.
It's like bard. With bard you go weapons or spells. I've played both. They didn't mix much at all. The weapon bard focused on combat gear and feats. The spell bard focused on spellcasting gear and feats. If you attempt to go both then you gimp yourself. Arcane Trickster is the same way. You're a magic missile spammer. Or a force imbue weapon user. ( most likely going tier 5 a combat tree )

 

[Jummby]

I disagree; I think this will be a fun class to play. I like playing trappers of any kind.

I won't know Fiz till I play it.

Hope you are well, I haven't seen you since the server scrambble.

I gotta laugh at all the "FAILURE" comments with just a Lamannia test and a wiki page. Maybe it's fun, I could see that. I will just put 3 lives of it like everyone else on my completionist toons.

Let's say it really bad...?

How often have we all done lives we don't like like since we need or want them? Than it's done.

 

[Underflow]

Spell Thief is way too situational, way too weak to be anything other than fluff. But trickster is like bard. Not a hybrid. A choice.
It's like bard. With bard you go weapons or spells. I've played both. They didn't mix much at all. The weapon bard focused on combat gear and feats. The spell bard focused on spellcasting gear and feats. If you attempt to go both then you gimp yourself. Arcane Trickster is the same way. You're a magic missile spammer. Or a force imbue weapon user. ( most likely going tier 5 a combat tree )

The issue with Spell Thief is that it comes online at level 16.

By level 16, mana stops being an issue. If it were available at level 4 or something, it'd be astonishing, acting like an early-heroic evergreen, but by level 16 you're kitted out with Sharn equipment, and have more than enough spell points to fund whatever spells you're tossing around.

AT is even worse in this case, because they rely upon SLAs and their biggest spell is Force Missile... The only reason you'd ever even bother putting Maximize on that spell is because I'm pretty sure Magical Ambush inherits attached Metamagics.

Basically, AT doesn't actually need spell points. With Magical Training regen alone, they can work basically forever on a rotation of 2 sp magic missile + SLA magic missile.

Level 16 AT is 100% of the time going to do at least 5x 8d3 Force Damage per Magic Missile cast.

 

[Ying]

I think the one thing I haven't read or seen a lot of in the feedback is what would be cool or exciting. If this archetype isn't exciting to you, what would be, and why would it be exciting? What would you do with it? I'm curious because it could help add new details to everything else being said here.

The fantasy behind Arcane Trickster is cool. I played a character like this in a table top game years ago, and it was super fun.

Where the Arcane Trickster archetype fails to deliver:

1. Mixing DC spellcasting and melee/ranged combat is not effective in DDO. Enhancement trees don't support it. Gear doesn't support it. If you try to do both, you do average damage and are an ineffective caster because character DCs are too low.

2. The game has punished nukers since the Update 59 nerf to R7-R10 spell damage. Update 66 addressed the core concerns for nukers, which were overperforming epic strikes. But the U59 bandaid was not removed. Players have brought this issue up many times on the forum. There have been zero comms from staff about when nukers are gonna get adjusted, and the silence from SSG is deafening. This spell damage nerf also affects all imbue builds. So it's kind of a big deal.

3. The Trickster archetype does not have synergy with the other two Rogue trees. So there's no incentive to remain 20 Rogue. Instead you're better off multiclassing. I'm not alone when I think it's a failure if enhancement tree capstones are not worth pursuing.

 

[Elves United]

3. The Trickster archetype does not have synergy with the other two Rogue trees. So there's no incentive to remain 20 Rogue. Instead you're better off multiclassing. I'm not alone when I think it's a failure if enhancement tree capstones are not worth pursuing.

My theory is it's best to go double capstone with 41 Arcane Trickster 41 Feydark Illusionist
( though you would need 2 universal tomes from different expansions to do it )
Using that combo may give you the illusion DC to overcome Arcane Tricksters weakness and has a lot of force spellpower boosts.
As well as the 100% magic Ambush.
Which one is better to go tier 5 in depends on how well you like Presto.

In this rare case not having any synergy with the other two rogue trees is a benefit.

 

[rabidfox]

My theory is it's best to go double capstone with 41 Arcane Trickster 41 Feydark Illusionist
( though you would need 2 universal tomes from different expansions to do it )
Using that combo may give you the illusion DC to overcome Arcane Tricksters weakness and has a lot of force spellpower boosts.
As well as the 100% magic Ambush.
Which one is better to go tier 5 in depends on how well you like Presto.

In this rare case not having any synergy with the other two rogue trees is a benefit.

You can't do 2 capstones. Capstones (just like T5s) are limited; once you take one, it prevents you from taking more.